The Construction of the Elizabeth Line being a "national joke"

[Mgameing123]

It's simple. Brits complain when you build anything to do with railways but enjoy it once its up & running.

 

[sjoh]

He managed to get Matt Lucas in one of his earlier solo videos, so I believe him!

Yup, I've no reason not to!

 

[richieb1971]

Do any projects run to time and on budget in this country?

From what I have seen you add 30% to the budgetted amount before signing on the line, and expect a budget increase on the 30% to be negotiated later on.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The reason it was referred to as a joke, although I think the more commonly used term was embarrassment, wasn't just because it ran over time and budget but the amount. Also the fact the management were "in denial" (a euphemism for lying until they couldn't hide the truth any longer) and didn't come clean until a few months before services were due to start and they hadn't even finished building the thing, never mind tested it.

 

[dk1]

Do any projects run to time and on budget in this country?

From what I have seen you add 30% to the budgetted amount before signing on the line, and expect a budget increase on the 30% to be negotiated later on.

Just this. I never understand why anyone bar the press (who want to sell papers/advertise) are ever surprised.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Take some recent huge projects like:
Jubilee Line Extension
Millennium Dome (The o2)
HS1
Olympic Park
Elizabeth Line

The overspend and delays are rapidly forgotten and end up looking like a bit of loose change in years to come. Does anyone seriously believe the projects abouve shouldn't have been built?

Technically HS1 was somehow on time and early - it’s success spurred on HS2 and Crossrail…

It's simple. Brits complain when you build anything to do with railways but enjoy it once its up & running.

Corrected this!

 

[zwk500]

Technically HS1 was somehow on time and early - it’s success spurred on HS2 and Crossrail…

What definition are you using? It had to be bailed out (twice?) by the government and split into two separate phases

 

[Agent_Squash]

What definition are you using? It had to be bailed out (twice?) by the government and split into two separate phases

I was going off the post-Railtrack consortium, but even looking into it again the price per mile is shocking compared to our European counterparts.

 

[MarkLong]

Do any projects run to time and on budget in this country?

From what I have seen you add 30% to the budgetted amount before signing on the line, and expect a budget increase on the 30% to be negotiated later on.

Construction project never run on time and on budget, not only in the UK, the rest of Europe, Asian, and American as well. 30% over budget is not too bad. For example, The HK's 9 mile sha tin central link's budget rising from HK$37.4 billion in initial planning, to HK$79.8 billion when construction started, and end up with costing HK $90.7 billion.

 

[J-2739]

Just this. I never understand why anyone bar the press (who want to sell papers/advertise) are ever surprised.

Nobody's surprised. Maybe just appalled.

 

[Mgameing123]

Technically HS1 was somehow on time and early - it’s success spurred on HS2 and Crossrail…


Corrected this!

They rarely complain if its a motorway or dual carriageway.

 

[43066]

Take some recent huge projects like:
Jubilee Line Extension
Millennium Dome (The o2)
HS1
Olympic Park
Elizabeth Line

Technically HS1 was somehow on time and early - it’s success spurred on HS2 and Crossrail…

Another that isn’t mentioned is the Thameslink upgrade project culminating in 2018 where (AIUI) the physical build aspects were all completed on time and on budget. Sadly this was overshadowed by the fiasco when it launched, which was largely due to lack of route knowledge (specifically nowhere near enough drivers signing the core route).

 

[Flying Phil]

It should be noted that the Midland Main Line Electrification is steadily progressing, quietly getting on with the job and now approaching Leicester with most masts in place now up to Kibworth. Most wiring in place to Market Harborough.

 

[Grumpy]

Construction project never run on time and on budget,

They do in well managed organisations. Using project managers who understand their own organisation, construction, and only progress to managing large projects after demonstrating success with lots of smaller projects. It also helps to have Investment Appraisal staff who are similarly experienced and who can ask the right questions in terms of costs/pricing and can ensure optional aspects of a project are fully justified.

 

[islandmonkey]

They rarely complain if its a motorway or dual carriageway.

Tell that to the Twyford Down protesters!

 

[Mgameing123]

Tell that to the Twyford Down protesters!

Looking at research. Not many hated on the project compared to HS2.

 

[Irascible]

They rarely complain if its a motorway or dual carriageway.

Have you forgotten the battles over the A303 in the 90s? and as mentioned, Twyford Down, and so forth. That was back when protesters were generally seen as cranks, too.

 

[Mgameing123]

Have you forgotten the battles over the A303 in the 90s? and as mentioned, Twyford Down, and so forth. That was back when protesters were generally seen as cranks, too.

Nice that there are people who do protest about road projects.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Brandenburg Airport has been mentioned, but there are other examples in Germany.
Stuttgart 21 for example.

Stuttgart 21 is a project to redevelop the city's large terminus station, into a transport hub, by entirely rebuilding the station, locating it underground and making all the railway lines, through lines.

Originally announced in April 1994, construction didn't commence until 2010.
The initial budget was set at €4.5 billion, but by 2013 had ballooned to €6.5b.
Originally due to open in 2019, the project has suffered multiple delays, cost over-runs, environmental protests and has been subjected to enquiries into the cost and slow progress.
The earliest opening date is now set as 2025.
The cost in March 2022 was said to have reached €9.15b, but by December had reached nearly €10b.
Once the cost of a new line, that is part of the project, is taken into account, the project is now estimated to be costing in excess of €15 billion.

€4.5b to €15b in 15 years and 6 years late.


z

 

[Colin Morgan]

The national joke is that the original management team were financially well rewarded for basically misleading TfL but equal culprits were Jacobs that were also paid handsomely to provide independent oversight to TfL but failed to provide any warning of the fiasco that be felled the project in 2018.

The worst outcome from this is now an approach on the likes of HS2 where we have an opening window now four years long for phase 1 that even after a couple of years construction still can't be narrowed. There is no way private companies could operate with this level of uncertainty on when an investment will start earning income. Even govt borrowed money cost 4% a year so by teh time HS2 have spent 50B on phase 1 those four years could add another 8B in interest charges. Its utterly unbelievable that this is just being accepted needs a JFK approach and set a hard deadline focuses mind.

You have to remember that the period when the management of the project was going awry and the public was being lied to was when the Mayor of London was a certain Boris Johnson. There is no rational explanation of why he was chosen to be in a position to deliver so many non funny jokes.

 

[Taunton]

Construction project never run on time and on budget, not only in the UK, the rest of Europe, Asian, and American as well. 30% over budget is not too bad.

Of course they do, there are plenty of substantial, competently-run examples.

One of the issues is that the media, even the technical press who should know better, do not examine why. For example, Crossrail had a cost overrun, but it was certain elements, not all parts equally. I believe Bond Street station came in 5 times over budget. But although media reports of the overspend give the values down to two decimal places, there's no understanding of where it went, because again I don't believe all parts of the station inflated equally. The cubic metres of excavation were presumably much the same as the original design - if not, why? The amount of concrete poured likewise - if not, why? So where in the detail of costs was the overspend? And why.

 

[BananaRepublic]

You have to remember that the period when the management of the project was going awry and the public was being lied to was when the Mayor of London was a certain Boris Johnson......

Wrong !
Boris Johnson left the mayor's office in 2016.
The period when the project came off the rails and lies were being told, only months before the delays were announced, was the summer and autumn of 2018.

Khan was effectively part of it, but early on, realised he'd better distance himself from the unfolding scandal.


Thankfully, the rejigging of the project management and bringing in qualified professionals with solid reputations, to run it, not only got the project back on course, but did a fantastic job of catching up and sorting out some serious difficulties.

.

 

[SynthD]

No mayor is to blame. The government gave the Crossrail project too much independence, too little oversight.

 

[Taunton]

The government gave the Crossrail project too much independence, too little oversight.

Terry Morgan was chair of Crossrail from 2009 to, I think, July 2018, when the government appointed him to the equivalent post at HS2, just weeks before the gross delay at Crossrail was made public. Teresa May was PM at the time, and Morgan was dismissed by her from HS2 when the Crossrail delay finally came to light. It's easy to say that politicians should have the responsibility, and although it's true they ultimately do, they are very considerably dependent on the advice they receive from their well-paid professional staff.

If I recall correctly, in a league table of the highest paid public employees Terry Morgan by 2018 was national No 1 at the top of the list. Someone will have the figures. Much of this was made up of bonuses for delivering on time. I have always felt this should come to the attention of the team from Scotland Yard.

 

[Sm5]

Part of Crossrails problems were created by the starting of HS2.

Had they waited until crossrail was finished, before kicking off HS2, half the staff wouldnt have been able to abandon the Crossrail ship, leaving it adrift losing the crew knowledge accumulated.

its not just the top thats to blame, theres plenty to share about.

 

[bramling]

These tyoes of majoe projects often run over budget and get delivered late. It's frustrating but they're generally massive, ,unique projects where it's very difficult to prediuct exactly what will happen on the ground once construction starts.

You then get politicians trying to shave the budget and de-scope during construction which often only adds to the the final cost and delay. All this aided and abetted by the media.

Take some recent huge projects like:
Jubilee Line Extension
Millennium Dome (The o2)
HS1
Olympic Park
Elizabeth Line

The overspend and delays are rapidly forgotten and end up looking like a bit of loose change in years to come. Does anyone seriously believe the projects abouve shouldn't have been built?

The dome has always been questionable, indeed its first incarnation was pretty forgettable.

 

[Thirteen]

Having watched programmes like Grand Designs, late and over budget is not just exclusive to big construction projects.

The Northern Line extension was 9 months late but it came in under budget.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Wrong !
Boris Johnson left the mayor's office in 2016.
The period when the project came off the rails and lies were being told, only months before the delays were announced, was the summer and autumn of 2018.

Khan was effectively part of it, but early on, realised he'd better distance himself from the unfolding scandal.


Thankfully, the rejigging of the project management and bringing in qualified professionals with solid reputations, to run it, not only got the project back on course, but did a fantastic job of catching up and sorting out some serious difficulties.

.

They never caught up as they delayed its opening several times albeit Covid was an acceptable excuse for one of them.

No mayor is to blame. The government gave the Crossrail project too much independence, too little oversight.

Jacobs were employed as independent reporters at a cost of over £30m to provide just that oversight but they allowed themselves to be duped by the project teams and clearly didn't ask the right questions. Then you have the London Assembly transport committee which along with the chairs were utterly inept and had the wool pulled over their eyes because they didn't know what to ask and they too easily accepted BS.

These forums or blogs like London Reconnections could have framed far more appropriate questions to tease out reality.

Then finally the majority of the railway press wouldn't challenge as they probably expected to be cut out by CrossRail press office if they did.

At least the vision has been realised and proven very quickly but a number of already well paid individuals walked away with huge bonuses that were never repaid.

 

[Hadders]

The dome has always been questionable, indeed its first incarnation was pretty forgettable.

Agreed but the area was a hideously polluted former gas works site and something needed to be done with it. Much of the cost was dealing with decontaminating the ground which had to happen anyway, and would always have had to be paid for by the Government as this would’ve been a liability from the nationalised gas industry.

But look at the development opportunities that decontaminating the land and building the Dome has unlocked. No-one laughs at it now, even if exactly what is there is not quite to your (or my) liking…

 

[Broucek]

I walk past Moorgate and Liverpool Street every day (or at least did when I went to the office regularly).

I kept thinking to myself in 2018 "this is never going to open on time"*. But apparently no one in authority realised....

* To be clear, I have no specialist knowledge, it was just very, very obvious!