The decline of town centres

[BRX]

This is why the only way to get a good uptake of utility cycling is Dutch style segregation, and is why a move to that is so important. It might be perception, but it is impossible to break it.

A change in driving culture can also make a difference. There are countries where segregation is not the norm but where cycling on the road is less intimidating than in the UK due to different driver behaviour. Make an awareness of the parts of the highway code relating to cyclists an important part of the driving test. It would be nice if there was a safe way to put anyone learning to drive on a bicycle, and let them understand, directly and viscerally, what it feels like to have a car pass you at 60mph with 50cm clearance.

 

[radamfi]

A change in driving culture can also make a difference. There are countries where segregation is not the norm but where cycling on the road is less intimidating than in the UK due to different driver behaviour. Make an awareness of the parts of the highway code relating to cyclists an important part of the driving test. It would be nice if there was a safe way to put anyone learning to drive on a bicycle, and let them understand, directly and viscerally, what it feels like to have a car pass you at 60mph with 50cm clearance.

There isn't really anywhere in the developed world apart from university towns where mass cycling exists without segregation on busy roads.

 

[whhistle]

But how many hours do you then have to waste waiting in for their delivery? Or if you pay for express delivery, have you lost any price advantage there might have been?

Zero.
I have a safe place.
They leave parcels with a neighbour.
They take them back to a local post office where I can collect when I'm passing.

The last two are undesirable, hence I leave a note out when I am expecting a delivery. Very few are not left in my safe-ish place.

In the not too distant future, a courier will ring a doorbell with a webcam, which will connnect to your phone and you can see who it is (this already exists). When we finally get rid of door locks and have pin pads or fingerprint scanners (which already exist!), you can then authorise (or unlock) your front door and allow the courier to leave the parcel in the hall.
Extra camera in the hall to watch them live on your phone.

Sounds sci-fi, but I bet within 5-10 years, it'll start becoming almost normal.

If I were a house builder, I'd be putting tech like this into houses as standard so at least people have the choice rather than retro fitting it.

 

[Ken H]

Zero.
I have a safe place.
They leave parcels with a neighbour.
They take them back to a local post office where I can collect when I'm passing.

The last two are undesirable, hence I leave a note out when I am expecting a delivery. Very few are not left in my safe-ish place.

In the not too distant future, a courier will ring a doorbell with a webcam, which will connnect to your phone and you can see who it is (this already exists). When we finally get rid of door locks and have pin pads or fingerprint scanners (which already exist!), you can then authorise (or unlock) your front door and allow the courier to leave the parcel in the hall.
Extra camera in the hall to watch them live on your phone.

Sounds sci-fi, but I bet within 5-10 years, it'll start becoming almost normal.

If I were a house builder, I'd be putting tech like this into houses as standard so at least people have the choice rather than retro fitting it.

they just bung ours on the back doorstep. its under a perspex roof so dry. But then I live in a village. not so sure that would work in a town, where the stuff may get nicked.

 

[Jonny]

I've been a lot more reluctant to shop in person since the carrier bag levy came in. Just saying...

 

[BRX]

There isn't really anywhere in the developed world apart from university towns where mass cycling exists without segregation on busy roads.

Happens throughout London on a daily basis!

Also, in Denmark for example, there are segregated lanes in many places but not everywhere. I've cycled there. Where there's no segregated lane you cycle on the road, and it's noticeable that drivers are better behaved than they are in the UK, with none of the overt aggression and nearly everyone passing you with plenty of space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A change in driving culture can also make a difference.

For the people I'm talking about, I'm genuinely not convinced it will. It's scary having a large chunk of metal bearing down on you protected only by a piece of polystyrene packaging on your head and a pair of jeans, and that won't change however well it is driven. A kerb or even better Armco barrier actually preventing that chunk of metal reaching you is much more reassuring.

As I've just mentioned in a different context on a different thread, perception is important. Many people won't use underpasses as they are perceived as unsafe, but fact is that crossing the road on the level, even with a pedestrian crossing there, is less safe. You won't get the bicycle into being the day to day mode of transport for the kind of people it is in the Netherlands (rather than blokes who like an adrenaline rush as it mostly is in London) unless you change that perception, and that just isn't going to happen without proper segregation. And it's not just a Dutch vs UK attitude difference - in MK you see people cycling at low speeds on basic bikes in day to day clothing all the time (and normally without helmets as cycling on segregated paths is not seen as a dangerous activity) - in London most of them, "Sadiq cycles" aside, are highly aggressive lycra-ed up middle aged blokes on a road bike.

 

[radamfi]

Happens throughout London on a daily basis!

Also, in Denmark for example, there are segregated lanes in many places but not everywhere. I've cycled there. Where there's no segregated lane you cycle on the road, and it's noticeable that drivers are better behaved than they are in the UK, with none of the overt aggression and nearly everyone passing you with plenty of space.

But mode share in London is very low compared to the Netherlands or even Denmark. Denmark, whilst comfortably second best in the world, is a long way behind the Netherlands, because their infrastructure is not as good. Cycle mode share in London is boosted by the difficulty in using a car and the high cost and overcrowding on public transport. So the only place worth copying is the Netherlands, and even there the whole country is not uniformly good. For example, Den Haag is widely known to people who know about Dutch cycling to have surprisingly poor infrastructure and as a result has relatively low cycle mode share compared to the rest of the country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But mode share in London is very low compared to the Netherlands or even Denmark. Denmark, whilst comfortably second best in the world, is a long way behind the Netherlands, because their infrastructure is not as good. So the only place worth copying is the Netherlands, and even there the whole country is not uniformly good. For example, Den Haag is widely known to people who know about Dutch cycling to have surprisingly poor infrastructure and as a result has relatively low cycle mode share compared to the rest of the country.

That's interesting as I've sort of lived in Den Haag (weekly commuted) and cycled there and I found it absolutely fine.

 

[radamfi]

That's interesting as I've sort of lived in Den Haag (weekly commuted) and cycled there and I found it absolutely fine.

There is a recent article on Den Haag cycling. It is clearly behind other cities in the country, but they are trying to improve matters.

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2018/10/09/cycling-in-the-hague/

 

[sprunt]

The irony is that it's successful centres that charge an arm and a leg, less busy ones don't/can't.

What are we talking about when we say "an arm and a leg" here? Bury has been quoted here as a thriving town centre and in the council car parks there you can get three hours for £2.30 which doesn't seem excessive to me. The main non-council car park is The Rock, where you can get five hours for £3.50 - again, doesn't seem too bad.

 

[BRX]

For the people I'm talking about, I'm genuinely not convinced it will. It's scary having a large chunk of metal bearing down on you protected only by a piece of polystyrene packaging on your head and a pair of jeans, and that won't change however well it is driven. A kerb or even better Armco barrier actually preventing that chunk of metal reaching you is much more reassuring.

As I've just mentioned in a different context on a different thread, perception is important. Many people won't use underpasses as they are perceived as unsafe, but fact is that crossing the road on the level, even with a pedestrian crossing there, is less safe. You won't get the bicycle into being the day to day mode of transport for the kind of people it is in the Netherlands (rather than blokes who like an adrenaline rush as it mostly is in London) unless you change that perception, and that just isn't going to happen without proper segregation. And it's not just a Dutch vs UK attitude difference - in MK you see people cycling at low speeds on basic bikes in day to day clothing all the time (and normally without helmets as cycling on segregated paths is not seen as a dangerous activity) - in London most of them, "Sadiq cycles" aside, are highly aggressive lycra-ed up middle aged blokes on a road bike.

I'm not arguing against the benefits of better infrastructure. But I do think that driver behaviour is also significant. Perhaps 'driver behaviour' is a bit of a vague category but I'd include in it the way drivers behave on smaller less busy roads. I think segregation totally makes sense on faster busier roads but it's difficult to have every last residential street segregated - you have to rely on car drivers driving appropriately on those roads where there's not much option but to have cyclists and motor traffic together. In London, for example, the 20mph limits that have recently been imposed are widely ignored and you frequently see people driving much too fast and passing cyclists too closely on smaller residential streets. Go to somewhere like Tokyo (which has a pretty good takeup of utility cycling) and you simply don't see that kind of behaviour on smaller non segregated streets (it feels very safe to cycle in Tokyo, but it's not because there's a widespread segregated cycle network - there's not - but because you can get around using smaller streets where you can feel confident there is not going to be stupid driving). Similar is true in various European countries.

 

[BRX]

But mode share in London is very low compared to the Netherlands or even Denmark. Denmark, whilst comfortably second best in the world, is a long way behind the Netherlands, because their infrastructure is not as good. Cycle mode share in London is boosted by the difficulty in using a car and the high cost and overcrowding on public transport. So the only place worth copying is the Netherlands, and even there the whole country is not uniformly good. For example, Den Haag is widely known to people who know about Dutch cycling to have surprisingly poor infrastructure and as a result has relatively low cycle mode share compared to the rest of the country.

I don't think the situation is clear cut enough to say that the Netherlands model is the only one worth copying. There is a collection of modal share figures here.

http://www.cityclock.org/urban-cycling-mode-share/#.WqufOWrFK9I

 

[underbank]

If driver behaviour is a problem, it's not just about "educating" drivers via the driving test etc. We need better enforcement of the laws we already have and that means getting police out on to the streets and getting them to take action against offenders. There was a time when all police officers would stop and talk to errant road users, but these days, it's only the traffic patrols who do it, particularly if there's some kind of campaign. Your average PC Plod just drives around blind to traffic offences these days (and commits a fair few themselves!). How about we start enforcing existing laws (like the 20mph speed limits mentioned above) before we start making new laws?

 

[bramling]

in London most of them, "Sadiq cycles" aside, are highly aggressive lycra-ed up middle aged blokes on a road bike.

I wouldn't have said that's quite true. Just looking out of my office window now, it's more suited-up middle-aged blokes on folding bikes and students on oldish mountain bikes.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I've been a lot more reluctant to shop in person since the carrier bag levy came in. Just saying...

must be back breaking carrying a couple of empty bags from your car into the shop

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been a lot more reluctant to shop in person since the carrier bag levy came in. Just saying...

Why? Is taking your own bags too hard?

 

[BRX]

If driver behaviour is a problem, it's not just about "educating" drivers via the driving test etc. We need better enforcement of the laws we already have and that means getting police out on to the streets and getting them to take action against offenders. There was a time when all police officers would stop and talk to errant road users, but these days, it's only the traffic patrols who do it, particularly if there's some kind of campaign. Your average PC Plod just drives around blind to traffic offences these days (and commits a fair few themselves!). How about we start enforcing existing laws (like the 20mph speed limits mentioned above) before we start making new laws?

Yup sure, I wasn't proposing making new laws. Absolutely I'd like to see 20mph limits properly enforced. In London they simply aren't enforced - at all. I'd also like to see more drivers being done for general dangerous driving in relation to cyclists. I'd wear one of those helmet cams whilst out and about on the bike, if I thought there was a reasonable chance of the police doing anything about stuff that got recorded on it.

 

[BRX]

I wouldn't have said that's quite true. Just looking out of my office window now, it's more suited-up middle-aged blokes on folding bikes and students on oldish mountain bikes.

Yes, I think it's overstating it a bit to describe most London cyclists as the high speed aggressive types.

 

[underbank]

In London they simply aren't enforced - at all.

Maybe like our area. Our local council have put 20mph signs everywhere but there's no enforcement because it's not the actual law - they didn't go through the legal process, so it's only advisory. Everyone around here knows that, so everyone ignores them. A complete waste of council money (as usual!).

 

[Meerkat]

The 20mph limits aren’t enforced because most of them are ridiculous and the police don’t want to be that unpopular.
Non-cyclists probably think cycling is dangerous because the government etc spend so much time telling you it is, and that you almost have to wear a helmet etc etc
The best way to make cycling safer is to get more people cycling, mass is critical. To do that you need secure parking, help creating secure home storage, and to stop scaring the crap out of people (also help if the keen cyclists didn’t keep going on that you need workplace showers.....which you only need if you go fast, the equivalent of running to work rather than walking)

 

[WelshBluebird]

The 20mph limits aren’t enforced because most of them are ridiculous and the police don’t want to be that unpopular.

Not quite sure that is a valid reason to break the law, and for the police to ignore the breaking of the law though.

 

[Meerkat]

It’s traditional for the British to ignore stupid laws and for the police to be pragmatic about enforcing them.

 

[BRX]

Maybe like our area. Our local council have put 20mph signs everywhere but there's no enforcement because it's not the actual law - they didn't go through the legal process, so it's only advisory. Everyone around here knows that, so everyone ignores them. A complete waste of council money (as usual!).

I don't know where you are but as far as I am aware the ones in London are perfectly enforceable. It is simply that the police refuse to proactively enforce them, apparently due to lack of resources.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

To get this thread a bit closer back to topic....

I would only buy shoes & clothes such as coats / jackets from a proper shop where I can see if they fit me. I know you can sometimes get clothes sent on approval to see at home if they fit you, but having to return the "incorrect" items would be too much of a pain. The main things I buy on line are a few 2nd hand publications, and the type of music CD that you (almost) never find in the few remaining shops that still sell CDs, etc.

Affluence.
Goodness me! If you buy something off amazon that doesn't fit you send it back just like any other catalogue company . If i want to send it back i walk to my corner shop and drop it off. You get a refund. if you want to make your life harder than it needs to be crack on but don't make out like it is a massive faff to return something. Persoanlly returning to Amazon is easier than returning to a shop.

Experiences vary, but I wouldn't say it's always that easy. The last time I had to return something to Amazon was only a couple of weeks ago: I first had to print the address label, which was a problem because I didn't have a working printer, so I ended up going to a local college to get it printed. Then I found I had run out of brown tape to seal up the return box.... cue a trip to Wilko's. Then, because that particular return was via Hermes, I had to find a local Hermes drop-off point. It turned out that, even living in London, there were none within a mile or so of where I live. I don't think I'd describe that as a particularly easy process! (Although to be fair, I really fault Amazon for most of that, and they did give me my refund very promptly after I'd sent the item).

For clothing, the comparison is with basically spending 5 seconds putting an item of clothing on the rack after you've tried it in the shop changing room and found it didn't fit/didn't suit you. I don't think there's any contest there.

I suspect that clothes are one area where High Street shops will play an important role for some time yet. I personally buy loads of things online, but clothes are something I invariably look for on the High Street first, because of the issue of wanting to see if something fits and suits me before I buy it. I believe there's also an issue that the high rates of returns for clothes sold online is expensive for retailers. That's a cost that high street retailers don't really have to the same extent, and therefore makes it easier for ordinary shops to compete on price with Internet retailers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that clothes are one area where High Street shops will play an important role for some time yet. I personally buy loads of things online, but clothes are something I invariably look for on the High Street first, because of the issue of wanting to see if something fits and suits me before I buy it. I believe there's also an issue that the high rates of returns for clothes sold online is expensive for retailers. That's a cost that high street retailers don't really have to the same extent, and therefore makes it easier for ordinary shops to compete on price with Internet retailers.

This is very true, but I'm not sure the small-town high street wins out there - what people generally prefer to do is to make a day of it and head to the nearest big city or retail park - more choice and more availability.

It did occur to me that there are two types of "High St" - big city centres which are about employment, social facilities and "luxuries" shopping like clothes, and smaller ones which are about more day to day stuff. The former seem to be thriving but the latter dying.

 

[WelshBluebird]

With clothes, it really depends what we are talking about too. For things like t shirts, hoodies, jumpers, shoes etc, I am fairly certain of my size and hardly am ever wrong, so don't mind buying those online. But for other items of clothing like jeans, shirts etc, sizing seems to be a lot more varied so much prefer to shop in store where I can. Although saying that, doing so can be a bit of an issue as I am often busy on weekends and in work for most of the time the shops in Bath are open for during the week (another reason why online sometimes wins, and for the things I need to go into town for I'll usually wait until a few things are needed at once and do a larger shop in Bristol).

 

[Ken H]

It did occur to me that there are two types of "High St" - big city centres which are about employment, social facilities and "luxuries" shopping like clothes, and smaller ones which are about more day to day stuff. The former seem to be thriving but the latter dying.

There is another type and that is tourist types towns. they are full of Edinburgh Wollen Mill shops and loads of cafes, pubs and outdoor shops. Places like Keswick. Huge numbers of people visit these places, even in winter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is another type and that is tourist types towns. they are full of Edinburgh Wollen Mill shops and loads of cafes, pubs and outdoor shops. Places like Keswick. Huge numbers of people visit these places, even in winter.

Yes, town centres do well in touristville, as it's not very holiday-like to spend a day at a strip mall.

 

[radamfi]

I don't think the situation is clear cut enough to say that the Netherlands model is the only one worth copying. There is a collection of modal share figures here.

http://www.cityclock.org/urban-cycling-mode-share/#.WqufOWrFK9I

You have to be careful with these stats. Many of these places will be student towns, or places with low car ownership or have some particular characteristic that means cycling has an unusual advantage. The stats may also only count commute trips or trips to the centre.