The Douro meter gauge lines in Portugal

[markofealing]

Have just come back from a holiday in Portugal and although it was not a 'railway' holiday I was shocked to discover that CP have 'deliberately' closed all of the meter gauge lines in an area of significant natural beauty.

We took a day trip to Pocinho and stumbled across the remains of the Sabor line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabor_line, engine sheds and some of the track still in place although the line closed 35 years ago. The main double deck(road/ rail) bridge over the Douro still in place and with track disappearing off into the distance. I believe a Mallet and some wagons still exist rusting in a siding near the broad gauge station. The Taberna Da Julinha restaurant https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...90d7217c299057be!8m2!3d41.1324023!4d-7.118918 next to the sheds has a number of framed photos of the line from the 70’s and 80’s on the wall as well as a guard’s lamp, flag and horn on the wall. Well worth a visit.

A similar story for the Tâmega line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tâmega_line, at Amarante the infrastructure is still in place an in very good condition, all that is missing is the track and the rolling stock/ locos! The same at Vila Real and to a lesser extend at Regua (the Corgo Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corgo_line). I believe there are still 3 Mallets rusting in a siding at Regua (used to be 9, not sure what happened to the missing 6), a static engine on display and a vintage train with mallet under cover with nowhere to go! Plus other rolling stock still exists (see Google street View https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@41.1...At1OPhQ9dIVgeLRpsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 and https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@41.1...9vwI4wNZb-70epo_Aw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1).

At the Tua Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tua_line, where the last part of the line will be lost when the new Dam is opened near the mouth of the Tua, there is a similar situation https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@41.2...4!1s5qWQOfZ_zjdJMDnchlftsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 with a vintage train (at least two) and nowhere to run.

There seems to be a total lack of interest by CP to capitalise the assets they have, increase revenue along the Duero Valley through tourism and partly re-open at least one of these lines, following a similar model to what has happened in the UK rather letting it rot to a point where it is permanently lost forever. I appreciate that they are strapped for cash, as is the country, but by being narrow minded and not looking at new ways of bringing investment into the railways the system will continue to contract. An interesting paper was written by Dr Dominic Fontana from the University of Portsmouth in 2012, titled “A new age of steam? The Tua Valley Line, Portugal - Experience and Examples from the Technological Heritage Operations and Preserved Railways of Britain.”

Tourism is growing in the Douro Valley thanks to the Vineyards which produce Port and some excellent wines which are becoming globally recognised. It’s really sad that the meter gauge railway infrastructure remains abandoned and unloved by its country*, especially as it could become a good source of revenue for Northern Portugal through tourism.

I’ll post some of my photos of what is left of some the above places later it the week and link to then on the forum.

* The 0-4-4-0 Mallet on a plinth outside Vila Real is possibly the only exception, somebody clearly loves it because its 99% intact. It occasionally gets its brass-ware polished and the valves and piston rods greased to protect the engine from the elements. If you walk up to it smells like it has only just been taken out of service, so maybe there still is some love and possibly some hope for the future.

 

[Chris999999]

You are not the only one who knows this. PTG the tour company have very strong views on this and have tried to tell CP what they are losing and missing out on.

 

[yorksrob]

At least they've had the sense to leave the infrastructure in place, rather than build over the lines.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

At least they've had the sense to leave the infrastructure in place, rather than build over the lines.

Well, the problem is that the lines aren t legally shut. Besides, the lines are state owned (as were the buildings until a few years ago) and the infrastructure operator can't sell what isn t theirs.
Also... check the fiber optic network of the Infrastructure Operator and compare it to the 1988 railway network and you ll see another reason for them not destroying the old railway lines

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I went on a railway holiday to that area in 2009 and then all the branches that we should have traveled on were not running.There was a steam train service we did on one section of the mainline, eastwards from Regua though.

I did do one of the branches towards the very end of the mainline in 2003.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This was the depressing scene at Regua last September (taken from the broad gauge station), of the start of the Corgo line.
The other depressing feature of the trains that are still running on the Douro line is the degree of graffiti on them.
You have to choose your seat carefully to get a portion of clear window to admire the wonderful scenery (the interiors are quite nice).
CP use the same sets on the cross-border line from Porto to Vigo (2nd pic).

Don't be put off going though - it's an outstanding area.
I only got as far as Regua. Next time I will go all the way to Pocinho.
A pity you can't get through to Salamanca any more - another unmissable city like Porto.

 

[70014IronDuke]

You are not the only one who knows this. PTG the tour company have very strong views on this and have tried to tell CP what they are losing and missing out on.

So the OP "knows" it?

The tour company may have "strong views", but do they have a strong bank account and are they prepared to put money where mouth is?

I was in Portugal for a number of trips every year between 1971-74. The Douro Valley branches (and the metre-gauge Porto Trindade system) were wonderful to see in operation. Magical, in fact, although IIRC, I never actually ventured up one on the Douro – the 'main-line' trains were more important to me. So I used to hang around the junctions to get both.

It was like going back to the 1930s then. The country was poor, and really poor and sparsely populated beyond Regua towards the Spanish border. I have never been back, but I assume, like many places, the new money has gone largely into roads and cars. There is no way that CP could keep these slow, twisting lines alive economically in face of road transport. Apart from Regua, which I imagine was a destination in its own right, the other branches (IIRC) went to small communities at junctions like Tua on the main line, and were meant as feeder points for onward travel.

And even keeping just one line, or part of one, as a tourist attraction would be a big cost. Do tourists today actually hang about, or do they come up from Porto for a day and return after one night, or less?

And there is probably v little tourism in the mid-October – May season.

I think the secret would be volunteer preservation groups – but I never saw a domestic enthusiast trackside in the days when I was there, and I must have spent 4-5 weeks all told over the years in Portugal back then.

There was one CP manager in Porto I knew, Mr Soares, who was a sort of Anglo-phile gentleman's gentleman type who loved steam. On one trip he arranged to have the preserved broad gauge locos drawn out of the shed at Braga for my pal and I. I think he actually said that he had personally arranged for some loco to be preserved. I'm sure there were and are other Portuguese enthusiasts, but it wasn't like you saw them in their hordes at the end of the platforms at Porto Camphana with their notebooks and Brownier cameras.

Wow, just writing about it brings back wonderful memories. People were friendly. Food and wine were cheap (but a bit risky beyond Regua. I remember catching the runs a couple of times – felt like I was going to die.)

I shall have to go back one day, but i wonder if it will be so changed I won't like the modern Douro.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This was the depressing scene at Regua last September (taken from the broad gauge station), of the start of the Corgo line.
The other depressing feature of the trains that are still running on the Douro line is the degree of graffiti on them.

Is that third class on that coach? Are there another two classes?

 

[70014IronDuke]

This was the depressing scene at Regua last September (taken from the broad gauge station), of the start of the Corgo line.

Yes. It's a far cry from the same position in 1973 - when there would be about 8 or 10 locos there, mixed broad and metre gauge, half of them in steam and working that day.

Don't be put off going though - it's an outstanding area. I only got as far as Regua. Next time I will go all the way to Pocinho. A pity you can't get through to Salamanca any more - another unmissable city like Porto.

Porto-Regua is (was) quite civilised and green. Beyond Regua, it starts to get wild and rugged. Most especially beyond Pocinho. I don't think you could even get a coffee at the station way back. There was one train a day from Salamanca, a single car (I think) railcar. Used to arrive early afternoon, and connect end on with the 'express' railcar from Porto. The return to Salamanca, arriving about 17.00 I think.

The border zone made Ais Gill look like a metropolis. There was nothing there. Just barren, brown, rugged rocks (I always went in summer). Must have been a big deal building the line. IIRC there was a bout 10 or 12 km of 'no-man's land' between the two border stations.

When did they close the border connection? 1980s? 90s?

The wild life was something too - I think I saw a roller there, it was certainly a blue bird - but I knew almost nothing about birds in those days.

 

[Giugiaro]

Good afternoon to everyone.

The matters behind the sheer colossus of railway shutdowns in Portugal and general railway disregard is one too difficult to explain in a short briefing, so I guess a Q&A would be the best option to address your questions about the situation currently visible in the portuguese railways.

It's a situation here in Portugal we constantly mock about, but we do so since the majority of Portuguese enthusiasts already know the background story.

If you'd like, I'm here to answer in detail each question that you put up. Some technical questions regarding who owns the railways, who decides the closures and who is responsible for what are quite important to understand the full extent of the business being the corrosion of the Portuguese railways.

Should we start then?

 

[Chris999999]

So the OP "knows" it?

Yes he says he does "There seems to be a total lack of interest by CP to capitalise the assets they have, increase revenue along the Duero Valley through tourism and partly re-open at least one of these lines,..."

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Then you have this:

http://www.jn.pt/local/noticias/vil...impedem-comboio-de-seguir-viagem-5334500.html

Short story... too many people for a single DMU so people simply didn't let the train depart forcing CP to send an extra train to Pinhao...
..

 

[Calthrop]

I remember reading from what I reckoned a reliable source, that as at two or three years ago, there was some action on an isolated section of the otherwise closed Tua line: for a little way both north, and south, of Mirandela, local passenger services were running, worked by diesel railbuses.

Has anyone any more recent news of this scene -- finished; or dare one hope, still going?

 

[Giugiaro]

Yes he says he does "There seems to be a total lack of interest by CP to capitalise the assets they have, increase revenue along the Duero Valley through tourism and partly re-open at least one of these lines,..."

This happens mainly because the State Government is the one entity that has most powers regarding investment. The railway operator was once a private company with market shares which where totally acquired by the State following the Carnation Revolution.

The current administration only follows orders and the only way to go through with new ideas or changes in the service is through communicating the respective desires to the respective State Secretary. A bunch of bureaucracy later, an answer from the state may turn something a reality, or not (the later being the most common).

In what concerns railway closures, most of them have been prompt by the Ministry of Transport and Communications/Ministry of Economy, due to unsatisfying passenger numbers/cargo quotas or unsustainable infrastructure. Even these decisions have a long story preceding such closures. Since the separation of Operation and Infrastructure, the excuse has always been the lack of security of the infrastructure.

Not only that, but unsurprisingly the Operator ends up having a rapidly aging rolling stock, since investment in new rolling stock or refurbishment of current stock is managed by the state. For example, the prime railway service in Portugal, Alfa Pendular [Pendolino], waited for almost 4 years for its midlife refurbishment scheme. And even though the OP pledges the state to release budget to lease five RENFE S-120 EMU's to support the Alfa Pendular service during refurbishment periods, no answer has been published from the Cabinet since January...

This applies for both new, old and ancient rolling stock. No wonder so many steam locomotives in Portugal ended up becoming rusted beyond repair!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I remember reading from what I reckoned a reliable source, that as at two or three years ago, there was some action on an isolated section of the otherwise closed Tua line: for a little way both north, and south, of Mirandela, local passenger services were running, worked by diesel railbuses.

Has anyone any more recent news of this scene -- finished; or dare one hope, still going?

The spared 30km of track are currently being "refurbished" for continued service. There's been press allegedly saying that company Douro Azul was going to operate Rail&River touristic routes from Tua to Mirandela, but I wasn't able to fetch any source online...

 

[Calthrop]

The spared 30km of track are currently being "refurbished" for continued service. There's been press allegedly saying that company Douro Azul was going to operate Rail&River touristic routes from Tua to Mirandela, but I wasn't able to fetch any source online...

Thank you. A sad remnant: but better that it still survives and seems to have a future, than the alternative !

 

[yorksrob]

Well, the problem is that the lines aren t legally shut. Besides, the lines are state owned (as were the buildings until a few years ago) and the infrastructure operator can't sell what isn t theirs.
Also... check the fiber optic network of the Infrastructure Operator and compare it to the 1988 railway network and you ll see another reason for them not destroying the old railway lines

That's interesting - I wonder if NR have been approached by the telecoms companies !

Alas, being state owned didn't stop them building over our network

 

[markofealing]

I've also come across the rumor about the Ferry/ Rail service being put in place. If true this would be a good compromise. It's reported in the YouTube video below:

https://youtu.be/wt8tHHSWyN8

With all the rolling stock and locomotives at Tua and the track lifted, I’m uncertain how this would be achievable assuming nothing is stored at the other end of the line. It's possible that with the new motorways, they could be transported by road.

It did look like they were working on the track bed at Brunheda. However, the station is at river level well below the village and I’m not sure if this section is affected by the dam.

With all the previous railway failures by CP, I suspect this may be a political stunt to keep the locals and the press quiet, rather than something which is likely to happen.

The dam is due to open later this year and as they restore the damage to the environment caused by the building of the dam, it will be interesting to see what happens next with the what remains of the Tua line!

To see what a trip along the line was like see

https://youtu.be/lD5PhuDXpqY

and to appreciate the beautiful landscape of this area of Portugal see

https://youtu.be/-b1R4dmBM80.

As for visiting the region, it's fantastic! Great food, friendly locals, don't worry if you can't speak the language, a few words will get you by pointing and some English will do the rest! Oh and I forgot the most important things (apart from the railways and the landscape), the Port and the wine produced in this region, both are worth the visit alone!

I've now uploaded my photos to Flickr, below are the links:

Sabor Line - https://flic.kr/s/aHskBzZk8V

Corgo Line - https://flic.kr/s/aHskBAbnmv

Tâmega line - https://flic.kr/s/aHskBF9ZAZ

What can we as rail enthusiasts do (both in the UK and Internationally) to help our fellow enthusiasts in Portugal salvage what remains of the meter gauge system before time runs out and it is lost?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's interesting - I wonder if NR have been approached by the telecoms companies !

Although slightly off-topic the answer seems to be that NR want to open up their infrastructure http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.ph...ale-uk-fibre-optic-infrastructure-assets.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you'd like, I'm here to answer in detail each question that you put up. Some technical questions regarding who owns the railways, who decides the closures and who is responsible for what are quite important to understand the full extent of the business being the corrosion of the Portuguese railways.

Is it possible to operate a preserved railway along similar lines to that in the UK in Portugal?

I've read that the authorities do not recognise amateurs as being capable of running a railway. Presumably, they don't get out much!

 

[Giugiaro]

What can we as rail enthusiasts do (both in the UK and Internationally) to help our fellow enthusiasts in Portugal salvage what remains of the meter gauge system before time runs out and it is lost?

There are several non-governmental groups fighting for preservation and reopening of several railway services in Portugal, or for the improvement of the quality of said service. Some are as follows:

Tua Line:

Plataforma Salvar o Tua [Save the Tua Platform]
https://www.facebook.com/plataformasalvarotua/

Last Day of Tua [PSoT and Esporão joint-venture]
http://lastdaysoftua.com/

Movimento Cívico pela Linha do Tua [Civic Movement for the Tua Line]
https://www.facebook.com/movimentocivicopelalinhadotua/


Corgo Line:

Movimento Cívico pela Linha do Corgo [Civic Movement for the Corgo Line]
https://linhaferroviariadocorgo.wordpress.com/

Vouga Line:
Movimento Cívico pela Linha do Vouga [Civic Movement for the Vouga Line]
https://www.facebook.com/Pelalinhadovouga/


There's also this group that has been working closely with the Portuguese National Railway Museum [MNF] to preserve and restore rolling stock. They are currently working actively on CP 1805.
http://www.heritagetractionrailservices.co.uk/

Is it possible to operate a preserved railway along similar lines to that in the UK in Portugal?

I've read that the authorities do not recognise amateurs as being capable of running a railway. Presumably, they don't get out much!

In a short answer: No.

Cargo railway operation is open for private investors if they are certified by Infraestruturas de Portugal [IP] and IMT [Institute for Mobility and Transport]. But cannot operate outside of the network IP has stated has "in service".

Passenger Railway operation is absurdly tricky. Supposedly, private operation can only be achieved if the State franchises passenger services. A private company cannot simply setup a business, buy rolling stock and start paying tolls to IP to run a service on the railway.

MNF has been able to make some historical services with the Presidential Train and other minor stock by asking gently to CP to do a favor:
They pay the state operator to run a chartered train (which is the only kind of service CP is free to do as it pleases). The difference here is that the rolling stock is provided by MNF, while everything else is managed by CP [Drivers, Tolls, Shunting, Homologation, Authorization, ...]
Next time you see the Presidential train arriving at Lisbon or Oporto, you'll notice that it is announced as a Special Train hosted by CP - Comboios de Portugal. (Although it's just a gimmick to fool the system).

In what concerns infrastructure... everything is owned and managed by IP. No private networks allowed.
Touristic or Leisure services are not certified as Railway Passenger Services in Portugal, unless they're charters managed by CP.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I have no idea whether CP is a good company, eager, and able to spot and exploit each and every chance to expand profitable railway services, including lines capable of being used as tourist routes - or not.

But I'm pretty sure of one thing - it will be under tight financial control, with multiple demands on its investment programme. And I am also pretty sure that investing in closed, metre gauge branch lines in rural areas of northern Portugal is going to be pretty hard to justify in view of the competing demands for investment.

I agree that Douro Valley and its environs is a wonderful tourist area, but if there is a market for rail-based tourism travel, possibly with steam traction, the obvious answer is to use the Iberian gauge Douro "main" line. It's there, in place at no extra capital outlay whatsoever, and presumably there are paths for any such trains as CP decide to run, at least east of Regua.

And if there isn't capacity, it would be far more valuable investing in creating it in the existing main line rather than re-opening a branch line that hardly anyone outside the tourist season will ever use.

For the average punter, it doesn't matter whether the line is metre gauge or not, and, as far as i know, there is nothing so unique about any of the branches that for Joe & Jane Tourist would form a 'must see' or 'must visit' trip along any of them. Nowhere has the Virgin Mary appeared, nowhere has any famous world figure been born, etc etc . Spectacular as they are, they are not THAT spectacular and the region not THAT attractive to the average tourist vis-a-vis all the world attractions out there. (Regardless of the fact that I personally love the area.)

So, any tourism demand can be met by the Iberian gauge line. If enthusiasts want to pour time, money and effort into re-opening a section of one of the branches, that's great, and I wish them all the best. But as a recipient of very much needed CP investment, I doubt there is any justification whatsoever.

 

[Giugiaro]

I have no idea whether CP is a good company, eager, and able to spot and exploit each and every chance to expand profitable railway services, including lines capable of being used as tourist routes - or not.

Ever since current president Manuel Queiró has been in charge of CP that we could say that a lot of effort to expand profitability and costumer numbers and satisfaction has been made, in an extent not seen in decades.

In a country where the use of Motorways and Private Mobility have been actively promoted since the 80's, bringing people back to using the railway wasn't an easy task, but we could say that the 2011 Economic Crisis was a good trigger for that change and, the then newly appointed administration, with Manuel Queiró as president, started a mild but powerful business model that led to an ever increasing passenger usage since then, to which the old and feeble Portuguese Railways started having a lot of trouble trying to cope with.

Something like this: https://www.cp.pt/passageiros/en/discounts-benefits/Discounts/Compra-antecipada was unimaginable just 5 years ago. And the results have been too much positive to cope with (has revealed by Flying_Turtle this week on this thread).

Signs of those changes are also the CP 0186 Steam Locomotive which was withdrawn from service a couple of years ago, to now reappear with a Diesel Boiler, removing so many burdens (you can ask me for details) to make such leisure train possible, while at the same time making it possible to triple the number of journeys available in a single year.

I agree that Douro Valley and its environs is a wonderful tourist area, but if there is a market for rail-based tourism travel, possibly with steam traction, the obvious answer is to use the Iberian gauge Douro "main" line. It's there, in place at no extra capital outlay whatsoever, and presumably there are paths for any such trains as CP decide to run, at least east of Regua.

There's the old Corgo Historical Train at Régua that hasn't moved for more than 15 years already, ever since REFER (now IP) removed the water towers that existed along the line towards Vila Real. This infuriated the OP's administration at the time, but nothing else was done more than keeping the train at guard in Régua.

The idea now is to move and operate that train in the Vouga Line, based at Sernada do Vouga. The intention was for the service to run from Sernada do Vouga to Águeda and back, or even to Aveiro given the technology installed on CP 0186. Due to it's proximity to Aveiro and a direct connection to InterCity and Alfa Pendular services from Oporto and Lisbon, it would make A LOT of sense to explore that kind of service in the Vouga line, and in part use the profits to invest in the current passenger service, which is the worst in the whole country.

The problem? The exact same has in the Corgo Line: Lack of supporting infrastructure in the Vouga Line, thanks to the ingenuity of REFER/IP.

BTW, the narrow gauge tracks in Régua... all removed thanks to the ingenuity of IP.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Giugiaro:
Good news from Portugal for everybody (Portuguese, British & Douro valley)

http://portugalferroviario.net/word...cao-de-carruagens-sorefame-para-intercidades/

By what I heard through the grapevine the good part is that this article seems to be a bit too much optimistic in how far the renovation goes...

The true details will certainly surface
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's interesting - I wonder if NR have been approached by the telecoms companies !

Alas, being state owned didn't stop them building over our network

Well the fiber optics are property of the IP which uses them primarily to railway S & T. With The whole country controled directly by 3 ROCs and 1 CTC(, which also regulate the remaining telephone block areas) you need high levels of redundancy.
However, S&T uses only 10% of the capacity and given that you can physically separate S&T from the rest of traffic they simply marketed the remaining 90%, gradually becoming an ISP for companies with datacenter services.
Now, given that recently Road & rail Infrastructure have been merged, you can add to this the fiber optic networks which run of certain motorways and roads.... so you can imagine thd businesse case they have there

 

[Disorientxpres]

Giugiaro:
Good news from Portugal for everybody (Portuguese, British & Douro valley)

http://portugalferroviario.net/word...cao-de-carruagens-sorefame-para-intercidades/

Are these the very wide carriages I rode up the Douro valley a few years ago? I was quite sure at the time that the 2+2 seating was first class and not particularly mean with it.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Ieap... probably were some of the finest carriages in Europe albeit a bit spartan

 

[Giugiaro]

This is a CP 22-40 2nd Class Car:


CP 22-40 by Tiago Miranda, on Flickr

Is this it?

 

[70014IronDuke]

it will be interesting to see what happens next with the what remains of the Tua line!

To see what a trip along the line was like see

https://youtu.be/lD5PhuDXpqY

I had entirely forgotten how the Tua line connected to the Douro Valley line from the west. (I suspect I never went up that side to photograph the branch). I've also forgotten where the engine shed was. I thought it was to the east of the station.

The problem with this video is simple: if you wanted to show better evidence of why the branch was closed, you would be hard pressed to find it. Miles and miles of twisting branch with not a house (let alone a village) in sight. A line that must be a civil engineers nightmare in heavy rain, with the risk of landslides and entire section of track washed away. Keeping that line safe, even at 25 km/hr (as much of it appears to be) must have cost a fortune.

I admit it is greener than I remember it (was the video taken in APril or so, when the winter rains would still be having an effect?), but it also shows the other problem - damn all there. A certain type of tourist likes this, and is prepared to put up with lack of modern amenities to get it. But for most, 20-30 minutes is enough, and then they want their Costa Coffee or Big MAc or modern-day comforts. They are tourists, not travellers, wishing to immerse themselves in the local scene and nature.

And - HORROR ! They've ruined one of the area's greatest attractions by rebuilding Mirandella station. Those old stations were beautiful, with their tile-patterns in the walls.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.......
Signs of those changes are also the CP 0186 Steam Locomotive which was withdrawn from service a couple of years ago, to now reappear with a Diesel Boiler, removing so many burdens (you can ask me for details) ...

You mean it is now fired with (expensive) diesel fuel, rather than heavy oil as it used to be?

... The idea now is to move and operate that train in the Vouga Line, based at Sernada do Vouga. The intention was for the service to run from Sernada do Vouga to Águeda and back, or even to Aveiro given the technology installed on CP 0186. Due to it's proximity to Aveiro and a direct connection to InterCity and Alfa Pendular services from Oporto and Lisbon, it would make A LOT of sense to explore that kind of service in the Vouga line, and in part use the profits to invest in the current passenger service, which is the worst in the whole country.

If this line still connects to the main Porto-Lisbon line, it makes sense to try to develop it. Not the same scenery as the eastern Douro Valley at all, however (at least as I remember it). I think it was a lot of tree plantations - maybe cork or olives or some such?

BTW, the narrow gauge tracks in Régua... all removed thanks to the ingenuity of IP.

Maybe they needed to re-use them? Do you have pikeys in Portugal? :roll:

 

[Giugiaro]

The problem with this video is simple: if you wanted to show better evidence of why the branch was closed, you would be hard pressed to find it.

This documentary was made specific to point out what led to the current situation in the Tua Line. Sorry I couldn't find an English Subbed version online...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCN9jk1TYQ0

And - HORROR ! They've ruined one of the area's greatest attractions by rebuilding Mirandella station. Those old stations were beautiful, with their tile-patterns in the walls.

As far as I know, the old station building in Mirandela still exists, albeit completely abandoned. There's an old argument between CP and REFER/IP over who owns the building, that still rages up until today. And given this stalemate, and the fact that the building is close to colapse upon itself, the Mayor of Mirandela has already pressed to buy the building to become ownership of Mirandela.

http://www.jornalnordeste.com/notic...-estacao-preocupa-habitantes-da-cidade-do-tua

You mean it is now fired with (expensive) diesel fuel, rather than heavy oil as it used to be?

The locomotive was never fueled with Fuel Oil. CP 0186 and 0187 have always been fueled with coal, which brought a lot of disadvantages to explore the service, mainly:

• There was no infrastructure to storage and deliver coal. It had to be transported every weekend by lorry and this cost a lot to the OP. Diesel is readily available in Régua and Oporto, and managed by IP, so there's no need to contract a refueling service specific for the steam locomotive.
• The burning of coal was considered hazardous to the security of the region, given that flares from unburnt coal could spread wild fires along the track, which was also composed of wooden sleepers.
• The coal had to be distributed by hand on the boiler, which at the time required a crew of three in the cab. The current diesel flow to the boiler is controlled by a single person, composing a crew of only two on the cab.
• The amount of coal needed to run the service was enormous compared to the amount of diesel used for the same journey. Since the diesel sprayer burns three times hotter than coal, and doesn't create ashes nor flares, it's safer, cleaner and far more efficient.
• Diesel is subsidized by the State, so it's obtainable at a lower cost than Petrol, Fuel Oil and Coal.

If this line still connects to the main Porto-Lisbon line, it makes sense to try to develop it. Not the same scenery as the eastern Douro Valley at all, however (at least as I remember it). I think it was a lot of tree plantations - maybe cork or olives or some such?

It's a suburban/regional railway, unique in the country. It doesn't have that WOW effect that the likes of Tua could give, but it's a fancy nice place to drive on. Kind of like the Wakayama Line in Japan, but much... much more degraded...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Ny_aeQbcw

Maybe they needed to re-use them?

https://www.publico.pt/local/noticia/patrimonio-ferroviario-destruido-na-estacao-da-regua-1739377

"It was an unused infrastructure and in advance state of decay. Its restoration involves an investment of 85.000 euros, whereas the dismantling allows savings with maintenance costs on the order of 20.000 euros per year." - Infraestruturas de Portugal 2016

Do you have pikeys in Portugal? :roll:

We do...


estação by mintt76, on Flickr


Portugal - Barca D'Alva by S P O N Z, on Flickr

 

[markofealing]

There's the old Corgo Historical Train at Régua that hasn't moved for more than 15 years already, ever since REFER (now IP) removed the water towers that existed along the line towards Vila Real. This infuriated the OP's administration at the time, but nothing else was done more than keeping the train at guard in Régua.

The problem? The exact same has in the Corgo Line: Lack of supporting infrastructure in the Vouga Line, thanks to the ingenuity of REFER/IP.

BTW, the narrow gauge tracks in Régua... all removed thanks to the ingenuity of IP.[/QUOTE]

So the problem is not really CP, they are just trying to make the railways profitable again, so make sure they have a business case for future government investment. That's understandable and from what you say, the current administration seem to have a plan which is starting to bear fruit. Although I think the current 5 yr plan has now run out. Any idea what is planned for the next five years?

What what I can establish from this post, CP are the train operator (like, Arriva or Virgin in the UK) and IP are responsible for the infrastructure (like Network Rail in the UK). Is this correct or over simplified?

If this is correct then IP are the problem. What s the basis for their actions, presumably financial?
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The problem with this video is simple: if you wanted to show better evidence of why the branch was closed, you would be hard pressed to find it. Miles and miles of twisting branch with not a house (let alone a village) in sight. A line that must be a civil engineers nightmare in heavy rain, with the risk of landslides and entire section of track washed away. Keeping that line safe, even at 25 km/hr (as much of it appears to be) must have cost a fortune.

I admit it is greener than I remember it (was the video taken in APril or so, when the winter rains would still be having an effect?), but it also shows the other problem - damn all there. A certain type of tourist likes this, and is prepared to put up with lack of modern amenities to get it. But for most, 20-30 minutes is enough, and then they want their Costa Coffee or Big MAc or modern-day comforts. They are tourists, not travellers, wishing to immerse themselves in the local scene and nature.

If we look at the UK railway scene in the last 50 years (some people have suggested Portugal's railways have been 50yrs behind the UK although I'm not too sure looking at recent developments), then we know it is not possible to run a steam railway in a rural location as a public commercial business. Look at the Vale of Rheidol Light Railway http://www.rheidolrailway.co.uk/history.htm in North Wales, it was under constant threat of closure but by some miracle BR managed to keep it running unit it was privatised in 1989, fully intact where it became a tourist railway run mainly by volunteers.

The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways http://www.festrail.co.uk/about.htm, both were slate railways taking you from the dock side where the sate was loaded on to barges to one of the worlds largest slate quarries and a bleak and god forsaken destinations. The fate of the Ffestiniog line was nearly sealed ,when like at Tua, they built a dam which flooded the trackbed . However, they got round it with some ingenious engineering work (not sure if this is possible at Tua or how the engineering work was funded).

The Welsh Highland Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Highland_Railway, didn't even exist as a railway until 1997, it originally closed in 1949. Nobody thought that anyone would restore the line because it ran over a bleak and sparsely populated area and it was 40Km long! Somehow, they managed to get the whole line reopened by 2011, through phased reopening.

The Talyllyn Railway http://www.talyllyn.co.uk/ is yet another example and as many of you will know was the first railway in the world to be preserved as a tourist railway in 1951!

What do these Welsh narrow gauge railways, which all started out as industrial (slate) railways have in common with the meter gauge of the Douro Valley?

They all required heavy engineering to go from A to B, which is expensive to maintain, the routes run through a harsh landscape which has poor road access, steep mountain sides, is damp for most of the year an in winter is prone to heavy snow. As mineral lines they served a very sparse population and were not economical to run purely as a commuter service for the locals. The regions of both countries are relatively poor, many parts of Wales have had significant EU funding over the years to develop tourism and industry.

Unlike the Douro lines, direct mainline rail access for most of them is limited or non existent, therefore getting people from populated areas to visit has been a challenge. Likewise getting volunteers and funding, but they do get enough volunteers and funding to run the lines!

A lot of the rolling stock had to be hand built as it didn't exist or had to undergo major restoration work because coach bodies had been turned into sheds. In the case of the Ffestiniog they even had to build new steam locomotives. The meter gauge lines of the Douro still retain their rolling stock and locomotives, either dumped in sidings, on plinths or in sheds, at least for now. Yes, they will need restoration, but this is possible, look at the condition of the last locomotives pulled out of Barry scrapyard!

However, scenery is fantastic, unlike Wales the weather is considerably better which means the lines are more of a tourist attraction for a greater part of the year, and the scenery is not the only attraction.

The Douro line itself, will benefit from increased tourist traffic, the region will benefit from tourism, as already shown in this post, at times the line is overwhelmed by tourists requiring longer trains. Speaking to the owner of our Quinta where we were stating, tourism for Port and Wine is on the increase in the region, helped by the better roads. However, the roads in the valleys themselves are awful (generally good road surface) and whilst the scenery is beautiful. As driver you spend most of your time negotiating the hairpin bends, the 10% inclines and the vertical drops, trying to admire the scenery and not becoming part of it! Stopping places exist but a few and generally not signposted. The maximum speed you can do on these roads is 60Km/h.

If tourism continues to grow, these roads will become unusable due to the volume of traffic, which at present is light. This was obvious in Porto which now sees regular traffic jams in the summer. A tourist railway will help solve these problems and bring additional foreign money into a very poor region of Portugal.

Personally, I think all three closed lines are all potential candidates for conversion into tourist railways, run on a similar model to the lines mentioned above for which they share a lot in common. However, it seems that the bureaucracy over the way the railways are politically managed and government’s attitude to tourist railways may be the real issues. Any comments?
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[*]The burning of coal was considered hazardous to the security of the region, given that flares from unburnt coal could spread wild fires along the track, which was also composed of wooden sleepers.
[*]The coal had to be distributed by hand on the boiler, which at the time required a crew of three in the cab. The current diesel flow to the boiler is controlled by a single person, composing a crew of only two on the cab.

The argument about sparks causing fires is really unfounded, spark arrestors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_arrestor have been fitted to steam locomotives operating in even dryer climates for many years.

I'm not sure why you need three people on the footplate to run a steam locomotive, there can only be one fireman and one driver, so what is the third person doing?

Did I take the steam train this summer along the Douro line? No, because it does not run the full length of the line, the cost is expensive and it is not a proper steam locomotive. Steam for me means the locomotive is powered by wood or coal, possibly heavy oil but not diesel. Proper steam locomotives have a characteristic about them which can not be reproduced, it’s the smell of the coal, the soot, the oil and the dirt. The knowledge that there are two people on the footplate making the thing go with most of the heavy work done by the fireman.

However, I do understand why CP have taken this approach and commercially it makes sense. Having steam locomotives, on the meter gauge lines would make up for what CP are unable to offer. BTW the train only runs on a Saturday during the summer, so that was another reason not to go on it.
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The problem? The exact same has in the Corgo Line: Lack of supporting infrastructure in the Vouga Line, thanks to the ingenuity of REFER/IP.

BTW, the narrow gauge tracks in Régua... all removed thanks to the ingenuity of IP.

Something is better than the current situation of nothing. Putting back the missing infrastructure (water tanks/ cranes) isn't a show stopper. On mainline UK steam which suffers the same issue, the fire brigade tanker trucks are used along with a fire hose! A more permanent situation could easily be lashed up.

The point is that this would be cheaper, than trying to re-instate an abandoned line. If managed and run effectively it could be used to justify to the more expensive ambition of reopening other lines to steam/ preserved diesel rail cars, etc.

The issue I see is that CP/ IP would want to run it and I don't believe their understand or have the capital to effectively run a tourist railway alongside a commuter railway, based on the Douro line experience. Therefore, they would probably be better off handing over the running of the line as a tourist line to a preservation society prepared to run a commuter service.
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We do...


estação by mintt76, on Flickr


Portugal - Barca D'Alva by S P O N Z, on Flickr

Short blog on LA FUENTE DE SAN ESTEBAN – BARCA D’ALBA http://blogs.upm.es/puma/2015/05/22/railway-line-la-fuente-de-san-esteban-barca-dalba/

Google Street View of the railbridge over the Douro on the Portugal/ Spanish border in 2009 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@41.0...4dFiIOrwNz2A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en. Google Earth suggests it is still there as does Google maps which still shows a railway line.

I believe the Spanish closed their end of the the Iberian gauge line forcing CP to close their section.

As for IP, the most pleasant thing I can say about them is they are railway vandals for what has happened at Regua. Someone needs to hold them to account, and those responsible removed.

 

[Giugiaro]

So the problem is not really CP, they are just trying to make the railways profitable again, so make sure they have a business case for future government investment. That's understandable and from what you say, the current administration seem to have a plan which is starting to bear fruit. Although I think the current 5 yr plan has now run out. Any idea what is planned for the next five years?

What I can establish from this post, CP are the train operator (like, Arriva or Virgin in the UK) and IP are responsible for the infrastructure (like Network Rail in the UK). Is this correct or over simplified?

If this is correct then IP are the problem. What's the basis for their actions, presumably financial?

In the British Context, your "translation" is correct in theory. In practice, it's a bit more complicated, specially after the recent fusion between REFER (direct cousin of Network Rail) and EP (something like Highways England) to create IP.

The thing is, unlike what I perceive in the UK, ever since Operation and Infrastructure where separated in 1997 that CP and REFER have acted like a divorced couple, rarely working together to achieve the same goals, although they need each other to basically exist in the first place...

For example, CP has an excess of EMU's and EL's and a lack of DMU's and DL's, because it was expecting REFER to have had electrified most of the network by the end of 2013. It's the middle of 2016 and the Minho, Douro, Algarve and Oeste lines are still facing setbacks on electrification. Hence the rent of 30 year old Spanish DMU's. While other electrified sections haven't had proper refurbishment for 30 or even 40 years!

This seems to have aggravated since EP was fused with REFER by the former government, to push the financial further rationing to the Railways. Basically rework what seems to work, destroy what seems not to work, and sell whatever can be sold, while retaining land ownership for later monetization. All using as little money as possible, while at the same time a bigger chunk of EU funds are diverted into road infrastructure. If it wasn't for the creation of IP, I doubt the Marão Tunnel would have been completed by now...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A4_motorway_(Portugal)#Mar.C3.A3o_tunnel

In Portugal it works in a sort of Trinity of Railway Disaster, where the State is God and CP and IP are Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They are all the same, but strangely independent whatsoever...

The State shifts between Labour and Conservative, meaning it's always shifting between the desire to privatise and interrupt public investment in the sector, or maintaining public ownership and invest heavily in the sector.

CP is forced to be economically and financially viable, while at the same time has to answer to all the social and politic pressure imposed by the government, without a single penny in compensation: https://www.publico.pt/noticias/jornal/cp-declara-guerra-as-fardas-141226
The only way that CP could survive with a half-decent service over years was through debt. While the UK is waiting for the arrival of new shinny Class 700 EMU's and Spain has just invested 2.600 Million Euros in new High Speed trains, Portugal's newest trains are a set of 34 Class 3400 EMU's, which are already 13 years old.

While IP, on the other hand, has to deal with major changes in mid and long-term investment plans which lag for years without end because each successive government had and has always different visions about the infrastructure desired for the country. Infrastructure is dealt with politics are little to no technical planning, and when technical and scientific evidence is used, it's normally mocked by MP's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqCYHG7uET0
And the best part? Is that this cancerous attitude applies to EVERYTHING, from new infrastructure to a f*****g damage intervention! [Remember the damage dealt in the Riviera Line recently? That line would have been closed for months or even years in Portugal].
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I'm not sure why you need three people on the footplate to run a steam locomotive, there can only be one fireman and one driver, so what is the third person doing?

One Driver, and Two Fireman, which also double as Shunter.
Currently you have the Driver and the Engineer, and the Shunters are lads from IP standing at both ends of the circuit.

BTW the train only runs on a Saturday during the summer, so that was another reason not to go on it.

If it was this year...

2016 Edition

• Saturdays, between 4 June and 22 October 2016.
• Sundays, between 3 July and 25 Sptember 2016.
• Wednesdays, between 3 and 31 August 2016.
• Monday, 15 August 2016.

See more at: http://www.cp.pt/passageiros/en/how...ulture/comboio-historico#sthash.tKd1kdC2.dpuf

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Giugiaro... don t forget about the latest PSD comical rant on railways... almost Corbynesque...

 

[30907]

In Portugal it works in a sort of Trinity of Railway Disaster, where the State is God and CP and IP are Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They are all the same, but strangely independent whatsoever...

I think that's technically heresy - as the Three are never at cross purposes but always One.

But it's a good description so I won't send for the Spanish Inquisition! Thanks....