The end is nigh for the Southern service to Milton Keynes, but what does this mean for the future of the south WCML and West London Line?

[The Planner]

If it was really that cheap it would have happened already, its another location that has had so many studies done on it and never gets anywhere.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Could a change in signalling in the West London Line accommodate more trains? 5 tph passenger and 1 tph freight isn't a lot, especially when all passenger services stop at all stations.

There is awful lot more than 1tph of freight on the WLL. Also there are 7tph passenger, not 5tph although 2tph of those passenger paths don't currently run but you couldn't link them up with the Brighton Main Line as the paths wouldn't work there.

When I said 1tph of freight, I meant on the Brighton Main Line, as there is only an hourly freight path and if you doubled the freqeuncy of the East Croydon - Watford Junction service you would use up the hourly freight path on the Brighton Main Line which you can't do.

 

[A S Leib]

There is awful lot more than 1tph of freight on the WLL. Also there are 7tph passenger, not 5tph although 2tph of those passenger paths don't currently run but you couldn't link them up with the Brighton Main Line as the paths wouldn't work there.

When I said 1tph of freight, I meant on the Brighton Main Line, as there is only an hourly freight path and if you doubled the freqeuncy of the East Croydon - Watford Junction service you would use up the hourly freight path on the Brighton Main Line which you can't do.

Can freight go via Horsham and Dorking, or are passenger services there too frequent? (Or is most freight on the BML to / from Gatwick / Kent?)

 

[Bald Rick]

Can freight go via Horsham and Dorking, or are passenger services there too frequent? (Or is most freight on the BML to / from Gatwick / Kent?)

Freight on the Brighton line is going to destinations on (or just off) the Brighton line - Purley, Crawley, Ardingly, Newhaven, etc. Hence why it goes on the Brighton line.

And not all of it comes from the West London Line anyway.

 

[HS2isgood]

There is awful lot more than 1tph of freight on the WLL. Also there are 7tph passenger, not 5tph although 2tph of those passenger paths don't currently run but you couldn't link them up with the Brighton Main Line as the paths wouldn't work there.

When I said 1tph of freight, I meant on the Brighton Main Line, as there is only an hourly freight path and if you doubled the freqeuncy of the East Croydon - Watford Junction service you would use up the hourly freight path on the Brighton Main Line which you can't do.

Sorry, I did not know there were more paths

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Sorry, I did not know there were more paths

No worries, the West London Line really is one of the hardest routes to plan, capacity is so restricted there and there really are pretty much no spare paths.

 

[mr_jrt]

West London Jn is absolutely critical - enables a route from the NLL at Camden to Acton when the main NLL is blocked via Hampstead.

West London Junction is the entire ladder, presumably? How often does the NLL block in such a manner as to require WLJ's use? Would it be feasible to do a reverse via Wembley Yard and access Acton via the Dudding Hill line on such occasions?

 

[Bald Rick]

West London Junction is the entire ladder, presumably?

yes.

I don’t know the cyclic maintenance on that part of the NLL, but I’d be surprised if it was less frequent than 4 times a year.

but in any event it is also a crucial junction for other traffic, especially in connection with engineering works, being the first opportunity to go fast - slow or vice versa north of Camden Bank. I used it myself only the other week.

 

[Kent99]

LNR is having a full recast in December. The plan is:

2tph Euston-(Watford 1tph)-Leighton-Bletchley-MKC-Wolverton-Northampton-semifast to Brum.
1tph Euston-MKC-Trent Valley-Crewe
2tph Euston-Tring semifast
2tph Euston-MKC Harrow-Bushey-Watford-all stations to MKC

plus a few peak extras.

I’ve been living under a rock too, clearly! LNR no longer terminate at Rugeley? And the Brum semi fasts aren’t extended to Liverpool anymore? Pre-lockdown I used that lnr often before switching to Chiltern, so perhaps why I hadn’t realised!

 

[The Planner]

I’ve been living under a rock too, clearly! LNR no longer terminate at Rugeley? And the Brum semi fasts aren’t extended to Liverpool anymore? Pre-lockdown I used that lnr often before switching to Chiltern, so perhaps why I hadn’t realised!

They have never terminated at Rugeley via the Trent Valley, they still do via the Chase line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve been living under a rock too, clearly! LNR no longer terminate at Rugeley? And the Brum semi fasts aren’t extended to Liverpool anymore? Pre-lockdown I used that lnr often before switching to Chiltern, so perhaps why I hadn’t realised!

That mess stopped with the COVID service cuts and fortunately never returned. The northern branches have returned to being served from Brum only.

 

[moogal]

As someone who actually uses this service fairly regularly (to commute Leighton Buzzard to Shepherd's Bush), the annoying thing with the cut back to Watford is that it's then around 20 minutes until the next connection in direction of travel. From many places along the route you then end up being quicker going into Euston and using the tube. I'm hoping the recast timetable might make the connection times a bit more appealing.

 

[Tangent]

It’s a wonder why Willesden Junction was never developed into a more prominent hub like Clapham Jcn was. Compared with stopping outersuburban trains at Wembley Central and Harrow & Wealdstone, this would generate a lot more usage as passengers would only have a single change to get to a variety of destinations within north and west London.

It was, once. Until 1914, most LNWR expresses stopped there, and many of the other railway companies serving London (including those South of the Thames) had local services of some sort to the station. For instance, you could change from LCDR boat trains to a Willesden service at Herne Hill, rather than making your way from Victoria to Euston.

Most of these services fell foul of WWI cuts, and Willesden Junction never regained the place it should have occupied in the London railway ecosystem.

 

[RT4038]

It was, once. Until 1914, most LNWR expresses stopped there, and many of the other railway companies serving London (including those South of the Thames) had local services of some sort to the station. For instance, you could change from LCDR boat trains to a Willesden service at Herne Hill, rather than making your way from Victoria to Euston.

Most of these services fell foul of WWI cuts, and Willesden Junction never regained the place it should have occupied in the London railway ecosystem.

Perhaps the cuts at that time, and that the services / stops never returned, indicate how important such interchange actually was.

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps the cuts at that time, and that the services / stops never returned, indicate how important such interchange actually was.

100 years ago? The passenger dynamic has changed since then, but I note that just like another discussion about calls at New Cross Gate today, it is noted that stopping trains at either Willesden Junction or New Cross Gate coupled with London's current zonal fare structure, would lead to less revenue.

 

[Tangent]

Perhaps the cuts at that time, and that the services / stops never returned, indicate how important such interchange actually was.

There was a clear problem with the viability of such services at the time. You needed to have a certain level of intra-London travel to maintain viability; and the Underground, trams, and motor-driven taxis and buses had robbed the railways of their Victorian advantages. But those threats aren't necessarily a problem today.

 

[cle]

There is an attrition element with OOC - not that that has locked in a lot of Overground funding. But I would think that the case for WCML platforms and more calls at WJ would be lessened if HS2 (and Crossrail/GWML) all had solid interchanges to both NLL and WLL services at OOC in the medium term.

A shame because yes, a West London Stratford in theory, would be useful. But there's no much there, vs Stratford's town/Westfield and Olympic development. Perhaps if it had been there and not at Shepherd's Bush (which itself also is reductive to OOC's retail development due to proximity too - OOC and maybe the LO platforms would be much more viable with a big mall, of course - per how we are in this country - the irony.)

Whereas Stratford (inc Int) comprises of Willesden Junction, Shepherd's Bush and OOC's rail links and developments in one.