The future of Heathrow Express Post Crossrail

[matt_world2004]

But you were arguing for the paths to be used to Slough and Reading!!

In response to someone who said that TfL could use them for what stopping at Ealing Broadway?

 

[Mikey C]

Why? The airport branch only serves the airport - what reason would TfL have for spending money to buy infrastructure which serves only one customer?

There are some seriously bonkers ideas being suggested in this thread.

But then why shouldn't the branch to the airport be owned by say NR?

After all, there's no difference between the Heathrow spur and say the Stansted spur

 

[Bletchleyite]

But then why shouldn't the branch to the airport be owned by say NR?

The airport paid for it so it's theirs. They could if they wanted and NR wanted to buy it sell it to them.

 

[II]

110 vs 100 mph is 3 seconds per mile reduction.

You could probably only sustain that for about 5 miles from clearing Ladbroke Grove to decelerating for Airport Jn.

So about 15 seconds saved.

Agreed, and so with the better acceleration as well it'll probably be around the 30 seconds mark in total. Slightly more in the down direction if the 60mph section at Kensal Green ever gets applied from 50mph (boards have been installed but covered for over a year - sometimes not covered when the bin bag has perished!).

I wonder, if HEx survives into the Old Oak Common station era, whether it will stop there?

 

[Horizon22]

I wonder, if HEx survives into the Old Oak Common station era, whether it will stop there?

I think the intention is for everything to stop at OOC, so that would be yes.

 

[Wolfie]

The airport paid for it so it's theirs. They could if they wanted and NR wanted to buy it sell it to them.

That is what l suggested. It could easily suit both parties.

 

[Ianno87]

That is what l suggested. It could easily suit both parties.

How? NR need to find the finance and then assume the maintenance liability. Meanwhile Heathrow get the track access charges whilst they own it.

 

[matt_world2004]

What benefit would there be to network rail to own the airport stations. They are already responsible for maintenance and signalling for which Heathrow pays them

 

[Horizon22]

What benefit would there be to network rail to own the airport stations. They are already responsible for maintenance and signalling for which Heathrow pays them

I suppose it makes it a tidier overall operation instead of a separately owned stub of the network which adds extra complication.

 

[coppercapped]

I suppose it makes it a tidier overall operation instead of a separately owned stub of the network which adds extra complication.

The complications will arise if Network Rail owns property in what is essentially the basement of buildings belonging to Heathrow Airports Ltd. and wishes to make some changes. Or if HAL wants to make changes which affect NR’s tunnels and stations. Much simpler if ownership of intertwined buildings remains in one set of hands.

In short I fail to see any benefits whatsoever in changing the ownership of the tunnels and stations - the current system has worked for over two decades. If there were any issues they have long been worked out.

One final point. In other threads there are frequently complaints that the breakup of British Rail gave rise to all sorts of new interfaces between companies which are populated by legions of lawyers; such interfaces are to be disparaged. Proposing yet another such interface seems less than consistent.

 

[cle]

As the following slots (twice per cycle) are used for the Oxfords which are fast to Slough - surely two of the Hex paths could be for services which run fast to Maidenhead or Twyford? Still enabling the Slough calls.

What is the situation for the other two slots re what follows behind? Not sure on how close but everything else is fast to Reading so that likely won’t work.

The other option in theory might have been a Windsor. I always thought that should have had a dive under from the reliefs and joined Crossrail. Might have worked out well.

 

[HST43257]

Not sure if this has been suggested but could XR take over HeX in the long term (if a follow-up fleet order of slightly faster 345s took place)?

 

[Horizon22]

As the following slots (twice per cycle) are used for the Oxfords which are fast to Slough - surely two of the Hex paths could be for services which run fast to Maidenhead or Twyford? Still enabling the Slough calls.

What is the situation for the other two slots re what follows behind? Not sure on how close but everything else is fast to Reading so that likely won’t work.

The other option in theory might have been a Windsor. I always thought that should have had a dive under from the reliefs and joined Crossrail. Might have worked out well.

At present the first departure after the 2tph Heathrow services at xx25 and xx55 is at xx28 a Cheltenham train (first stop Reading) or an xx02 Bristol service (first stop Reading).

In normal times the xx10 and xx40 are currently followed by the xx15 and xx45 Bristol "super fast" trains that haven't run since March. So it's tight and would probably require further timetable edits. Because they don't stop at Reading and its only a 5 minute headway after the xx10, that will be tricky without wider timetable amendments.

 

[Aictos]

City Airport Train in Vienna is an obvious one. I've only used it because the Taurus working it was required! As there's also a regular RailJet/IC service to Hbf it's even more of a pointless service than HEx is.

May I also add that the S Bahn is also available and costs a fraction of the CAT which is the Austrian version of the Heathrow Express.

I used it last October and it by far was superior to the options you listed above.

The S Bahn doesn't take long and is more comfortable then the likes of the Elizabeth line or the Piccadilly line.

 

[Minstral25]

It seems to me that Crossrail/Elizabeth Line when it is open will steal most traffic from Heathrow Express. Why, because most passengers do not start in Paddington itself, the vast majority come from all round London.

So, if I were travelling in via these “Main-Line” stations I suspect I would be using Crossrail: -

London Bridge (inc. Charing Cross & Cannon Street) – Thameslink to Farringdon and Crossrail to Heathrow
London Blackfriars – stay on train to Farringdon and then Crossrail to Heathrow
London Waterloo – Northern line to Tottenham Court Road and Crossrail to Heathrow
Fenchurch Street – Get off at West Ham, District/H&C to Whitechapel and Crossrail to Heathrow
Liverpool Street – Direct link to Crossrail
Kings Cross / St Pancras – Thameslink/H&C/Circle/Metropolitan to Farringdon (1 stop) and Crossrail to Heathrow (Do not forget a lot of passengers to these stations will be on Thameslink trains calling at Farringdon already so no need to even get off)
Euston – Northern to Tottenham Court Road and Crossrail to Heathrow

The exceptions are probably

Marylebone – Bakerloo to Paddington and then HEX or Crossrail to Heathrow
Victoria – Circle to Paddington and then HEX or Crossrail to Heathrow – although most places with trains to Victoria also have alternatives to London Bridge or Thameslink so via Farringdon to Crossrail would be good options
Paddington – either HEX or Crossrail

Similar arguments can be put for most Tube lines to use Crossrail due to number of interchanges in Central London.

 

[Horizon22]

It seems to me that Crossrail/Elizabeth Line when it is open will steal most traffic from Heathrow Express. Why, because most passengers do not start in Paddington itself, the vast majority come from all round London.

So, if I were travelling in via these “Main-Line” stations I suspect I would be using Crossrail: -

London Bridge (inc. Charing Cross & Cannon Street) – Thameslink to Farringdon and Crossrail to Heathrow
London Blackfriars – stay on train to Farringdon and then Crossrail to Heathrow
London Waterloo – Northern line to Tottenham Court Road and Crossrail to Heathrow
Fenchurch Street – Get off at West Ham, District/H&C to Whitechapel and Crossrail to Heathrow
Liverpool Street – Direct link to Crossrail
Kings Cross / St Pancras – Thameslink/H&C/Circle/Metropolitan to Farringdon (1 stop) and Crossrail to Heathrow (Do not forget a lot of passengers to these stations will be on Thameslink trains calling at Farringdon already so no need to even get off)
Euston – Northern to Tottenham Court Road and Crossrail to Heathrow

The exceptions are probably

Marylebone – Bakerloo to Paddington and then HEX or Crossrail to Heathrow
Victoria – Circle to Paddington and then HEX or Crossrail to Heathrow – although most places with trains to Victoria also have alternatives to London Bridge or Thameslink so via Farringdon to Crossrail would be good options
Paddington – either HEX or Crossrail

Similar arguments can be put for most Tube lines to use Crossrail due to number of interchanges in Central London.

Not entirely sure why you think someone from Waterloo/Charing Cross wouldn't take the Bakerloo or why someone at Kings Cross would go back on themselves to get Crossrail at Farringdon, especially if they're already getting on the Met line?

 

[Minstral25]

Not entirely sure why you think someone from Waterloo/Charing Cross wouldn't take the Bakerloo or why someone at Kings Cross would go back on themselves to get Crossrail at Farringdon, especially if they're already getting on the Met line?

It's possible at Waterloo but as Bakerloo to Paddington is an 18 minute Journey and has additional cost at the end I'm speculating that most would go via Crossrail.

At Kings Cross you could do that and it is one extra stop overall, however most passengers from around London will come in on Thameslink Trains and will just stay on one stop to Farringdon, LNER and Cambridge flyer passengers would have both options but are a small % of passengers.

I realise now I forgot Moorgate, so Hertford North and Welwyn passengers would just go to Moorgate and get Crossrail direct from there.

 

[Horizon22]

It's possible at Waterloo but as Bakerloo to Paddington is an 18 minute Journey and has additional cost at the end I'm speculating that most would go via Crossrail.

At Kings Cross you could do that and it is one extra stop overall, however most passengers from around London will come in on Thameslink Trains and will just stay on one stop to Farringdon, LNER and Cambridge flyer passengers would have both options but are a small % of passengers.

I realise now I forgot Moorgate, so Hertford North and Welwyn passengers would just go to Moorgate and get Crossrail direct from there.

At Waterloo you have to get on the tube anyway, so why not opt for the more direct option? Journey planner says 14 min, so not sure where that figure comes from. Waterloo -> Tottenham Court Rd -> Paddington takes 5+5+interchange time so it may well be broadly similar, so this will be personal preference and there's always a time penalty for an additional interchange.

At Kings Cross / STP you're forgetting all EMR and SE passengers, nor would I say LNER leisure travellers are a "small %"!

 

[coppercapped]

As the following slots (twice per cycle) are used for the Oxfords which are fast to Slough - surely two of the Hex paths could be for services which run fast to Maidenhead or Twyford? Still enabling the Slough calls.

What is the situation for the other two slots re what follows behind? Not sure on how close but everything else is fast to Reading so that likely won’t work.

The other option in theory might have been a Windsor. I always thought that should have had a dive under from the reliefs and joined Crossrail. Might have worked out well.

If I remember the (pre-Covid) timetable correctly the trains which made the Slough, and in the peaks one of either Maidenhead or Twyford, stops on the Down Main were the trains immediately before the HExs. The gap thus created on the Down Main west of Airport Junction after the HExs took the branch meant that the Down train following the HExs had (just) enough headway to run non-stop to Reading without catching up the stopping train.

A similar pattern worked in the Up direction, but because of the vagaries in the timekeeping of the Up trains it didn't always work.

 

[Minstral25]

At Waterloo you have to get on the tube anyway, so why not opt for the more direct option? Journey planner says 14 min, so not sure where that figure comes from. Waterloo -> Tottenham Court Rd -> Paddington takes 5+5+interchange time so it may well be broadly similar, so this will be personal preference and there's always a time penalty for an additional interchange.

At Kings Cross / STP you're forgetting all EMR and SE passengers, nor would I say LNER leisure travellers are a "small %"!

It is 4 mins to Tottenham Court Road, then 28 mins to Heathrow on Crossrail for £5.10 at Peak, total time 32 mins, against 14 mins to Paddington and 15 mins on HEx for £24.60 at peak, total 29 mins. I know which route I'd go. 3 mins longer but save £19.50

I say that LNER/EMR and SE will be relatively small percentage as most passengers heading for Heathrow would be from London and Home Counties. LNER passengers coming from Newcastle are likely to use Manchester Airport rather than Heathrow. Similar with EMR passengers using East Midlands or Luton. If you look at where Heathrow passengers come from they are mostly from within Home Counties.

In any case EMR/SE passengers come in just above the Thameslink platforms to get to Farringdon rather than walking full length of St Pancras International station to the Circle line with luggage. Plus EMR passengers may be able to do a same platform swap at Luton to Thameslink for Farringdon which would be even easier for them.

My view is that Crossrail will provide greater access to Heathrow than HEx via Paddington once it is running, as not only does it have greater direct access to more destinations but also much better connections all round than Paddington at a lower cost. Thus HEx like GatEx will become a low use service that is hogging track space better used for other services, although if Heathrow Southern Access ever happens this would become a good use of paths from Paddington.

 

[SynthD]

I would be surprised if there was not an element there of a deliberate effort by the airport's management to make Crossrail less competitive on price terms with the HEx, given that passengers using the latter obviously mak them more money.

There was a court case four years ago about that https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40059659 "Heathrow loses Crossrail access charge case".

 

[Horizon22]

It is 4 mins to Tottenham Court Road, then 28 mins to Heathrow on Crossrail for £5.10 at Peak, total time 32 mins, against 14 mins to Paddington and 15 mins on HEx for £24.60 at peak, total 29 mins. I know which route I'd go. 3 mins longer but save £19.50

I say that LNER/EMR and SE will be relatively small percentage as most passengers heading for Heathrow would be from London and Home Counties. LNER passengers coming from Newcastle are likely to use Manchester Airport rather than Heathrow. Similar with EMR passengers using East Midlands or Luton. If you look at where Heathrow passengers come from they are mostly from within Home Counties.

In any case EMR/SE passengers come in just above the Thameslink platforms to get to Farringdon rather than walking full length of St Pancras International station to the Circle line with luggage. Plus EMR passengers may be able to do a same platform swap at Luton to Thameslink for Farringdon which would be even easier for them.

My view is that Crossrail will provide greater access to Heathrow than HEx via Paddington once it is running, as not only does it have greater direct access to more destinations but also much better connections all round than Paddington at a lower cost. Thus HEx like GatEx will become a low use service that is hogging track space better used for other services, although if Heathrow Southern Access ever happens this would become a good use of paths from Paddington.

In no way did I say get HeX? You can still get a Crossrail train from Paddington.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Could you perhaps use the paths in conjunction with GWR’s Intercity services to make a through service in a similar way to TPE Man Airport - Cleethorpes? It could be a good way to make use of the paths as in a way it connects Heathrow to the West without the need for a change trains or have a western spur built.

For example, a train from Bristol or Exeter could arrive into Paddington and then reverse out after ten/fifteen minutes using the Express path for the non-stop journey to Heathrow where the journey would end.

The IETs might be a bit long as while they could take nine carriages of 332 I know the 80x have longer carriages, but they could be lengthened or use SDO, OR if that isn’t possible perhaps only have Bedwyn or Oxford fasts, or Bristol off peak supers extend to Heathrow as these usually are booked for five carriage trains.

 

[SynthD]

That’s a complicated version of one train going Exeter - Pad - Exeter and the second going Heathrow - Pad - Heathrow.

 

[Ianno87]

That sounds horrendously operationally risky. I can see ex-Bristol services being routinely terminated short at Paddington to recover late running.

When Old Oak Common opens (assuming Main Line trains stop), an 'over the bridge' double-back changing at Old Oak will be quicker by the best part of 20-30 minutes.

And yes, before anybody says it, yes I get that passengers with luggage prefer not to have to change trains...

 

[43096]

That sounds horrendously operationally risky. I can see ex-Bristol services being routinely terminated short at Paddington to recover late running.

When Old Oak Common opens (assuming Main Line trains stop), an 'over the bridge' double-back changing at Old Oak will be quicker by the best part of 20-30 minutes.

And yes, before anybody says it, yes I get that passengers with luggage prefer not to have to change trains...

Agreed.

It would help if people didn't take everything but the kitchen sink with them when they went to the airport. Golden rule: if you can't carry it, don't take it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed.

It would help if people didn't take everything but the kitchen sink with them when they went to the airport. Golden rule: if you can't carry it, don't take it.

The vast majority of people carry one trolley case possibly plus a piece of hand luggage, either on wheels too or on their back. If you're relocating by air, you don't have much choice.

On the Piccadilly Line or similar it tends to go by their knees, and there's more room on the wider 345s for that.

 

[Aictos]

I'm going to take the opposite view to the majority here and say with confidence that the Heathrow Express will continue as it is even when the Elizabeth line is fully open because 1. You will always get traffic wanting to pay more for the time saving and convenience, 2. The former Heathrow Connect (Elizabeth Line), Piccadilly Line and Heathrow Express have coexisted for years which I don't see that changing and 3. It's seem as a premium service which the others are not.

Yes for me I be using Thameslink to Farringdon then Elizabeth line so won't use the Heathrow Express as my first choice but as I've explained in my post above, only a fool would disregard Heathrow Express as still running when the Elizabeth line is fully open.

As to proposals of GWR services terminating at Paddington then heading to Heathrow, that in itself is unworkable for a number of reasons which should be discussed in another thread.

 

[cle]

If I remember the (pre-Covid) timetable correctly the trains which made the Slough, and in the peaks one of either Maidenhead or Twyford, stops on the Down Main were the trains immediately before the HExs. The gap thus created on the Down Main west of Airport Junction after the HExs took the branch meant that the Down train following the HExs had (just) enough headway to run non-stop to Reading without catching up the stopping train.

A similar pattern worked in the Up direction, but because of the vagaries in the timekeeping of the Up trains it didn't always work.

Yep this is what I was saying.

2 HEx tph drop off the mainline, enabling the Oxfords in front of it to stop at Slough. Therefore creating a gap before the next Reading fast. I was asking about the other 2tph - and then what solutions, potentially using Maidenhead calls ahead and flighting - might enable a Slough call to remain.

 

[Kite159]

Yep this is what I was saying.

2 HEx tph drop off the mainline, enabling the Oxfords in front of it to stop at Slough. Therefore creating a gap before the next Reading fast. I was asking about the other 2tph - and then what solutions, potentially using Maidenhead calls ahead and flighting - might enable a Slough call to remain.

Don't the Oxford fasts already call at Slough?