The Great British Train Scandal (Channel 5)

[misar]

Just watched this and as can be expected from the title it did not flatter the present system. Leaving aside the enormous rise in (real terms) fares since BR days I was surprised by the equally impressive increase in government subsidy. Add in the complexity of running the privatised system (or buying tickets to use it) and you get to the programme's concluding question: was privatisation worth it? Apparently DfT still thinks so, citing the enormous increase in rail journeys since BR's demise.

The programme didn't address my question: do other changing factors mean that the increase arose despite privatisation, not because of it?

 

[507020]

the enormous increase in rail journeys since BR's demise.

Note an equal increase in Northern Ireland without privatisation…

I will have to watch the programme though. It’s not long since Ben Elton’s Channel 4 documentary drew the same conclusions.

 

[ainsworth74]

The programme didn't address my question: do other changing factors mean that the increase arose despite privatisation, not because of it?

It's almost unknowable and has been argued about on here several times before! Personally I tend to take the view that it was likely despite of privatisation (not that I think that BR could have done better in increasing passenger numbers) we have two telling data points in my view. Firstly that nationalised Northern Ireland Railways has seen significant increases in passenger usage since the 1990s (reaching a 50 year peak just prior the pandemic), secondly passenger numbers under BR was already trending very sharply up prior to privatisation in 1995 and this trend continued without a change post-1995 indeed if you look at a graph, if it wasn't marked out when privatisation occurred I'm not sure you'd be able to guess! For instance from Wikipedia:

Rail transport in Great Britain - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(Graph showing a general trend of decline in passenger numbers from around 1950 through to the early 1990s (with some peaks and troughs, but a general downward trend) when it starts rising rapidly)

But in all honesty there is no way of really knowing for certain what would have happened to passenger numbers in an alternative world where BR was never broken up and privatised.

 

[Railsigns]

The programme didn't address my question: do other changing factors mean that the increase arose despite privatisation, not because of it?

Yes.

Read the Independent Transport Commission's report "Wider Factors affecting the long-term growth in Rail Travel" (November 2018).

Link to the report:

https://www.theitc.org.uk/wp-conten...eport-Rail-Passenger-Demand-November-2018.pdf

 

[HullRailMan]

Of course the reality is that the answer to your question will be incredibly nuanced and virtually impossible to reach a conclusion - that sort of complexity is of little interest to such programme makers.

In my opinion, there’s no way you can simply say privatisation has or hasn’t worked as there are far too many variables beyond that, both within and outside of the industry’s control. Indeed, passenger numbers alone are just one measure - how exactly does anyone define or quantify success? I’d much rather learn from past experience, takes forward ideas that appear to have worked and build on the position we find ourselves in. Broad brush policy purely based on ideology and dogma (on all sides) is rarely successful.

 

[Adam Williams]

The programme is available on My5: https://www.channel5.com/show/the-great-british-train-scandal

Lots of talk about walk-up tickets, but there's not much nuance relating to ticket types or splitting in the programme at first. Anthony Smith (previously Transport Focus, now chair of the IRR) gives a bit more context and I think a more balanced view on the matter in his segment.

Edit: apparently TrainSplit did get a mention in the last 5 minutes of the programme!

Not surprising to hear of the poor state of the London Underground in terms of cleanliness and air-quality. I've only ever seen rats at TfL-managed stations..

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Anyone know what ticket type this is?

 

[TUC]

The problem with reaching a conclusion is not just the important Northern Ireland comparison above. It is also that the models of franchising used by government has changed so many times, the levels of government interference have varied so much, and the competence of DfT in making and implementing policy so poor that it is hard to identify what an optimal position would have looked like.

 

[midland1]

Did think the case of Bristol to Edinburgh was somewhat loaded, had a look at Bristol's airports departures for Friday and saw 4 flights to Edinburgh but did not see any to London, Birmingham or Manchester.

 

[Bald Rick]

Leaving aside the enormous rise in (real terms) fares since BR days

Is it that enormous, in terms of actual pence per mile or journey paid on average? As that is surely the benchmark, not a near random fare.

And compare to the rise (in real terms) of fares in BR in the last devade of it’s existence.…

 

[TrainGeekUK]

I was still very suprised that Mrs Thatcher wasn’t the one who privatised the railways…

 

[WesternLancer]

Has also been pointed out in the past that (pre covid) London transport had significant upward trends in tube use during the same period. Also no privatization. I've not looked at road use but that may also have grown.

I do think that BR would have done a better job had they had custody during that period of growth - but they would not have been allowed to 'get away' with such high fares increase, nor would the Treasury have given them the extra subsidy that went into the privatised industry. Politicians of both sides had an interest in making it look like privatization 'worked' so ended up paying out more subsidy to help achieve that (all sorts of factors part of that too of course, not least safety cost increases after the sequence of high profile accidents forced action in that area).

 

[Mugby]

I was still very suprised that Mrs Thatcher wasn’t the one who privatised the railways…

The idea of rail privatisation was suggested to Mrs Thatcher when she was PM but she dismissed it, saying she didn't think there was any appetite for it.
It was the awful John Major who did it, originally wanting privatisation based on the old 'Big Four' model, as they were before nationalisation in 1947.
However, being a very weak and vapid leader, he allowed himself to be talked into the 'break it up into a thousand pieces' shambles which we ultimately ended up with.

 

[Thirteen]

The programme is available on My5: https://www.channel5.com/show/the-great-british-train-scandal

Lots of talk about walk-up tickets, but there's not much nuance relating to ticket types or splitting in the programme at first. Anthony Smith (previously Transport Focus, now chair of the IRR) gives a bit more context and I think a more balanced view on the matter in his segment.

Edit: apparently TrainSplit did get a mention in the last 5 minutes of the programme!

Not surprising to hear of the poor state of the London Underground in terms of cleanliness and air-quality. I've only ever seen rats at TfL-managed stations..

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View attachment 156178
Anyone know what ticket type this is?

I did a search on CrossCountry for Bristol to Edinburgh for three weeks time and for Thursday 2nd May, the cost varies from £147 to £223, Friday 3rd May is £223.

I suspect it'd be a lot cheaper to do Bristol to Paddington, a Tube journey on the Circle to King's Cross and then get the LNER train to Edinburgh.

 

[Falcon1200]

Did think the case of Bristol to Edinburgh was somewhat loaded

Indeed, it seemed very much a deliberate choice to show rail in the worst possible light.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, it seemed very much a deliberate choice to show rail in the worst possible light.

It's an important narrative about the current system in itself though. Should it really be cheaper and more comfortable to undertake such a journey via London ?

The postcode lottery and lack of logic to the fares system which has been exacerbated by privatisation is a key issue:

- If I lived in the South East, I would have a general railcard available to me. As I live in Yorkshire, I do not.
- If I lived on the WCML south of Crewe, I would have access to cheap walk-on fares to London. As I live on the ECML, I do not etc.

The one thing I can safely say is that since the pandemic, the railway has been the worst its been in comparison to later BR and the subsequent iterations of privatisation.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Trashy hatchet job I thought. And largely ignored the fact that our railways are underfunded and expensive because the government wants it that way,

 

[75A]

I turned it off after a couple of minutes, when it showed a Casey Jones, American steam engine hauling American coaches.

 

[yorksrob]

I turned it off after a couple of minutes, when it showed a Casey Jones, American steam engine hauling American coaches.

Not a BR era burger joint then !?

 

[75A]

No, on seeing it I thought this programme's not for me. Couldn't get the relevance of an American steamer.

 

[Lost property]

Indeed, it seemed very much a deliberate choice to show rail in the worst possible light.

Which, lets be honest, takes very little effort. Were the railways actually be as good as they should be, there would be no need for programmes like this.

The emphasis on fares was clearly evident, but, the air quality segment was informative given it's not usually an aspect that gets covered.

The Bristol to Edinburgh comparison made a change from the usual locations chosen for such.

Not overly exciting, but, interesting viewing and, thankfully, "celeb" prattle free. Mind you, they did manage to include a spotter at the end.

 

[yorksrob]

However much the powers that be try to obfuscate and avoid the issue, fares are one of the most (if not the most) important issues for passengers.

 

[voyagerdude220]

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View attachment 156178
Anyone know what ticket type this is?

It showed the Woman's eticket, it was an Off Peak Single. I'm guessing this was filmed before the recent fare rises happened a few weeks ago. Naturally no mention of the £137.50 Super Off Peak Single route via London.

Also I couldn't help but notice how they happened to arrive at Bristol Temple Meads at 09:36- a minute after the 09:35 to Edinburgh departed.

I doubt many people would turn up nearly an hour before their booked train.

Also I wonder how far in advance they booked the plane ticket for that price.

 

[midland1]

Why was some of it filmed on the Kent and East Sussex Railway, unless it was to make it look like the railway was all old kit.

 

[Bald Rick]

I do think that BR would have done a better job had they had custody during that period of growth - but they would not have been allowed to 'get away' with such high fares increase

But BR was ‘allowed to get away with’ higher fares increases. 37% in real terms between 1984-1994 across the board (source, history of NSE by Chris Green), and not just on specific fares selected to make a point. Government had no say, as in those days they were rather distant on such matters and would let BR take the flack.

As I said earlier, whilst some fares have gone up, the actual fares paid by many people have fallen in nominal terms, let alone allowing for inflation. You certainly couldn‘t do Birmingham - Euston for £18 return on a Friday in 1994, and you can now.

 

[yorksrob]

But BR was ‘allowed to get away with’ higher fares increases. 37% in real terms between 1984-1994 across the board (source, history of NSE by Chris Green), and not just on specific fares selected to make a point. Government had no say, as in those days they were rather distant on such matters and would let BR take the flack.

As I said earlier, whilst some fares have gone up, the actual fares paid by many people have fallen in nominal terms, let alone allowing for inflation. You certainly couldn‘t do Birmingham - Euston for £18 return on a Friday in 1994, and you can now.

A quick look at NRE for tomorrow (going out after 10:00 and back after 20:00) brings up either £42 or £61.50.

 

[WesternLancer]

But BR was ‘allowed to get away with’ higher fares increases. 37% in real terms between 1984-1994 across the board (source, history of NSE by Chris Green), and not just on specific fares selected to make a point. Government had no say, as in those days they were rather distant on such matters and would let BR take the flack.

As I said earlier, whilst some fares have gone up, the actual fares paid by many people have fallen in nominal terms, let alone allowing for inflation. You certainly couldn‘t do Birmingham - Euston for £18 return on a Friday in 1994, and you can now.

Yes, I know they did indeed do that - but I was thinking of the steep increases in the unregulated IC fares since privatisation by some TOCs - as illustrated in the useful tables Barry Doe used to publish in Rail. But your point is still valid.

 

[WestieRail]

Why do most public TV programmes *have* to include Christian Wolmar? Very offputting. As well as a so called expert from Which? suggesting that we should be entitled to free/declassified First Class travel if Standard is busy!

They even had the nerve to 'study' rail safety by quoting "408 accidents" (these can include slips, trips and falls and the actions of road users) and "things are about to get worse"! Rail travel in the UK is one of the safest modes of transport.

My main issue with it was the expected comparison of a walk-up train fare with a fixed flight airfare (something which many members of the public and politicians are guilty of). Also, they didn't factor in the cost of bringing baggage on the flight. They gloss over the fact that flights can be cancelled and delayed also.

Very biased against rail to get a reaction - as expected from British media.

 

[Falcon1200]

My main issue with it was the expected comparison of a walk-up train fare with a fixed flight airfare

Indeed, but it is standard practice when demonstrating How Dreadful Our Railways Are to compare the highest possible rail fare with the competing alternative. Using the example in the programme, is it even possible to turn up at an airport, buy a ticket and jump on a plane to Florida seconds before it departs?

The Bristol to Edinburgh comparison made a change from the usual locations chosen for such.

I also confess to turning off well before the programme ended (after all, Swansea via Stoke was live on Sky Sports) but did they compare rail and air frequency between Bristol and Edinburgh?; Rail provides an hourly service from 0635 to 1635.

fares are one of the most (if not the most) important issues for passengers.

Of course and understandably, but I did have to smile when the anonymous Train Driver complained about high fares; Where does she think a large proportion of the money paid goes?

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed, but it is standard practice when demonstrating How Dreadful Our Railways Are to compare the highest possible rail fare with the competing alternative. Using the example in the programme, is it even possible to turn up at an airport, buy a ticket and jump on a plane to Florida seconds before it departs?

Seconds before? No you'd still need to clear security but my understanding is that it would be perfectly possible to rock up to an airport and buy a ticket on the next available flight (that you might actually clear security in time for) to New York. Just expect to pay a pretty penny for doing so and, depending on the time of year/day, inadvisable as there may not be any available seats! But very similar to how rocking up at Bristol and buying a ticket for the next available train to Edinburgh could prove extremely costly and may result in you standing...

 

[Falcon1200]

But very similar to how rocking up at Bristol and buying a ticket for the next available train to Edinburgh could prove extremely costly and may result in you standing...

True, but at least you would still get on the train! Unlike the plane if it was full (and indeed, if airlines still practice overbooking, some passengers with valid tickets might not be able to travel....)