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The Horror of Pacers

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AndrewE

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The DMUs which survived to be replaced by Pacers had already been refurbished / life-extended, those that weren't were mainly condemned due to asbestots. Its doubtful whether another life-extension would have been feasible.

But, there's a lot of forgetfulness in this thread. The reality is that by the time the Pacers were introduced the remaining classic DMU fleet were on their last legs. Clapped out suspension, engines which regularly failed and spares that were hard to come by. It wasn't unusual to ride on a set which had a banging engine due to unrepaired head gasket or exhaust manifold leaks. Even more common for some of the engines simply not to run........The upholstery was collapsed - horsehair cushions have a finite life expectation, while the combined efforts of years of cleaners failing to clean had rendered them internally filthy.
The Pacers when introduced were clean, had engines which worked, lights which worked, seats which didn't collapse or leave you covered in diesel fumes, powered doors, were better riding than the classic DMUs, and didn't break down - or at least not until the problems with the SC gearboxes emerged.
In short they were a heck of an improvement on what had gone before.
The problems with the Pacers now boil down to the same problem as with the DMU fleet they replaced: they were kept in service for far too long after they became life expired, in both cases by around 50% longer than the intended service life
There's a lot of truth in all that, but all the classic DMU's were bogie vehicles on heavy underframes, hence giving a far better ride than the two-axle "nodding donkeys," even if the 142's suspension was the height of technical achievement at the time!
Unfortunately the 142s are (and I suspect always were) allocated in areas with a disproportionate amount of jointed track.
 
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Sprinter150

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I might start a topic on
How horrible are 150s lol.

I wonder how many services will be cancelled next week for shortages of stock?

All you anti Pacer brigade would have them all scrapped today without facing any consequences

Hope you all like buses!

This thread is all negative yet again!

Long live Pacers.

Completely agree - I find 150/1s the worst; not looking forward to short formations with one of these instead of 2 X 142. At least GWR and ATW (as it was) actually refurbished them with 2 + 2 seating. Doubt that, even by the end of the next franchise (if they even continue in their current form) we'll get rid of much more than this these though. Long live the 156, which will probably be nearing 50 years old when it is withdrawn. Don't forget, replacing pacers with 150s is "part of the biggest fleet upgrade in a generation".
 

yorksrob

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Yes, a 150 isn't a patch on a 3 carriage 144 in any way.

On their plus side, when they turn up on my morning commute, vice a 158, I always manage to get a seat.
 

Sprinter150

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Yes, a 150 isn't a patch on a 3 carriage 144 in any way.

On their plus side, when they turn up on my morning commute, vice a 158, I always manage to get a seat.

That's a benefit of it to be fair. Although the middle seat on the row of 3 isn't too good. If the North was actually invested in with decent length suburban services (on an electrified route - I know: so unreasonable), 2+2 seating might be fine. But then we have our DfT. I don't see things improving any time soon for Northern stock.
 

yorksrob

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That's a benefit of it to be fair. Although the middle seat on the row of 3 isn't too good. If the North was actually invested in with decent length suburban services (on an electrified route - I know: so unreasonable), 2+2 seating might be fine. But then we have our DfT. I don't see things improving any time soon for Northern stock.

True.

The 3+2 facing seating on the 308'swas vastly superior to the airline 3+2 seating on many 150's.
 

Killingworth

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Younger readers will find it difficult to imagine how different things were in 1985. Here on the Hope Valley line we only had an hourly fast train between Sheffield and Manchester. The stopping service only went as far as New Mills with a change for Manchester and it wasn't even a regular two hourly interval.

Class 101s operated. I'd first travelled on them about 1957 when they were newly introduced on the Newcastle - Carlisle line and back then they seemed brilliant. By 1985 they'd seen a lot of service and my memory is of smelly leaking exhaust fumes.

With such sparse services and growing car ownership passenger numbers were dwindling. Cut costs!

Exit right the 101s, gradually being replaced by new rolling stock, enter left Class 142 Pacers. It's only recently got through that if public transport is to compete with cars more frequent services are needed, and now those workhorse Pacers are being replaced by hourly 150s or 156s.

Returning to 1985 it was noted that faster trains were needed. Dore Station Junction was considered to be a bottleneck due to slow speeds over the junction. So they simplified the tracks to permit faster line speeds - and removed 3 of the 4 station platforms. Good plan with only about 3 or 4 trains per hour over the single line section through the station.

Looking at this with fresh eyes today, be it from an overloaded Pacer running hourly or a similarly crammed fast service half hourly, you may wonder how the tide was turned. It was, and those stalwart Pacers have played their part. We don't hate them, we'd have appreciated more of them. "Please move up the train" announces a Saturday morning guard as she struggles to create space to get back aboard. Good humour all around (mostly young passengers, the future of rail). The bulldog spirit, all very chummy, as long as you don't pass out!

Roll on overfilled 150s and 156s. That's happening now.

various015 (1280x845)a.jpgIMG_20190713_123002.jpg
 

transmanche

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Anyone recall the story about the Pacer train that could not get past some curved track at Newcastle Upon Tyne so had to reverse back and try again?
I remember that on one occasion in the 1990s it made one of the tabloids, where it was described as an 'InterCity' service...

Technically true, I suppose, as both Newcastle and Sunderland are cities.
 

6Gman

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Stop this now, all of you!
This thread is about how bad Pacers are, but warm feelings are creeping in to some posts.
Anyone who has never travelled on one, don't. They're awful.
Anyone wanting to bash them all before they're gone, don't. I beg you not to waste your time.
Lets get back to slagging off Pacers, I'd like to hear more horror stories as per the Thread title.

Chester to Llandudno Junction one summer Saturday when they used to venture that way.

The worst journey I've ever experienced, and the closest I've ever come to being sick on a train (other than a virus-related incident on a 158 ...).

Staggered off at the Junction to find that the connection to Llandudno was ... another Pacer !

Having said that, last year I did a fair bit of travelling between Southport and Wigan. And the Pacers were ... ok
 

cosmo

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And the Pacers were ... ok

They're especially OK if they're the ones with high-back seats, that frequent the Newcastle/Carlisle/Teeside areas. I went to Morecambe not recently and found ones with the original bench seats, and I wouldn't like to do an hour on those, but the high-backs are good. Newcastle to Carlisle is certainly doable, in nice weather and provided you get a seat!
 

AndrewE

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Completely agree - I find 150/1s the worst; not looking forward to short formations with one of these instead of 2 X 142. At least GWR and ATW (as it was) actually refurbished them with 2 + 2 seating. Doubt that, even by the end of the next franchise (if they even continue in their current form) we'll get rid of much more than this these though. Long live the 156, which will probably be nearing 50 years old when it is withdrawn. Don't forget, replacing pacers with 150s is "part of the biggest fleet upgrade in a generation".
The ATW (TfW's) 150s are actually pretty good, especially when you consider their age. Nothing can compete with bogied rolling stock. Manchester to Church Stretton is almost enjoyable in one, whereas the same distance in a pacer would be purgatory, rather like teh usual 2-car 1630 Manchester - Cardiff, although for a different reason!
 

Mugby

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I've just had a very pleasant afternoon sampling the new Sheffield - Gainsborough service.

142s both ways, outwards on one with 2+2 seating with headrests, return on one with 2+3 seating with plastic seat backs.

Use them while they're still with us, lament them when they've gone!
 

LMS 4F

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I am only just 6ft tall but on the 142s with the tall seats on most of the seats I have to sit sideways as I can't get my legs in. The situation is no better on a lot of other units although the refurbished 150 I was on the other week did have more options to sit comfortably.
The big issue for me is that the people up here in the north are being conned once again. Ministers appear on local news saying Pacers are being replaced by new trains, but for most of us a 30 year old train is being replaced by another 30 year old train which has been given a quick makeover.
I have a choice of two trains an hour to Leeds and neither of these are ever likely to be a 195, a 150 or a pair of 153s is the best we are going to get.
 

KevinTurvey

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My recollection is that travelling on a pacer when they were new was actually much worse than it is now. The painful screeching around curves, the sometimes quite violent gear change and the extremely poor ride was not a pleasant experience. The heavy re-engineering from their original condition with the many improvements made, and much replacement of jointed track has made a big difference.

Back in the day much of their core routes around Liverpool - Wigan - Southport - Bolton - Manchester - Oldham was jointed track. Does anyone remember going over Carr Mill viaduct in one before the upgrade?!!!

They were not universally welcomed by the public at the time, I remember complaints in the local press and news slots on Look North West about them. Granted they were cleaner, had a much better turn of speed away from stations and hill climbing capability than the 1st generation dmu's had, but they were not really seen as an improvement by many at the time.

The fact that a large number of them had to be withdrawn after a couple of years also did them little favour.

By comparison the class 150's introduced around the same time gave a really smooth ride, which perhaps gave the added perception the pacers were worse than they actually were.

For the last 25 years however they have given reasonable service and to be fair they ride fairly well on welded rail, and they are fine for short journeys of up to half an hour. I would find it very disappointing if they were withdrawn just to meet an arbitrary date, if the only result was cancellations, overcrowding and replacement buses.
 

ed1971

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There's a lot of truth in all that, but all the classic DMU's were bogie vehicles on heavy underframes, hence giving a far better ride than the two-axle "nodding donkeys," even if the 142's suspension was the height of technical achievement at the time!
Unfortunately the 142s are (and I suspect always were) allocated in areas with a disproportionate amount of jointed track.

Speaking from experience, the first generation DMUs gave a terrible ride. There was severe bogie hunting and the bogies used leaf springs. By the mid 1980s a lot of them were in a real dilapidated state. The Class 104s spring to mind as being the worst and I have endured many journeys on them to Southport. The severe bumpy ride on them gave me headaches. Although Pacers do not have bogies they use coil springs. If you compare an original London Routemaster bus to it's contemporaries, you will see how much better the ride quality is due to coil springs.
The first generation DMUs I have travelled on are mainly Classes 101s, 104s, 105s and 108s. In common with the Routemaster, some of the first generation DMUs used AEC engines, which were difficult to maintain due to a shortage of spares by the 1980s The Class 101s that stayed in service till the 2000s, had Leyland engines. Some of them were fitted with the TL11 (the same as Pacers), but non turbocharged and known as the L11. From what I've read the last first generation DMUs, the Class 123s, used B4 and B5 bogies that gave a far better ride, but these were withdrawn around 1984 and I haven't experienced them.

Speaking of a direct Pacer and 150 replacement, something like a DMU version of the Downer Rail/Bombardier Transperth B series: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transperth_B-series_train
or
Alstom X'Trapolis 100 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X'Trapolis_100
would probably be more suitable than the 195.
 
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Chris217

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I must be one of the few that would be quite happy to see them continue in use !


I'd love to see them continue.

With regards to heritage lines snapping some up,that will be sheer entertaining given that most have jointed track but I would be up for it.

Hopefully a few will be saved and painted into all the various liveries they once carried.
 

mike57

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I also recall both classes of Pacers having a devil of a job climbing the hill to Speeton Summit from Bridlington. They would quite often come to a sudden stop halfway up it as if they needed to stop for breath!

Still get them here occasionally, particularly on a weekend, watched one leaving Bempton towards Scarborough this afternoon from my workshop window. Struggled to get going, it will then hold up the Hull bound train at Hunmanby as they usually seem to be running late by this point. Horrible things, noisy draughty and uncomfortable ride. Hopefully gone for ever soon.
 

Fisherman80

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Every other week I travel from Bingley to Morecambe, a journey of roughly one and a half hours,and I can honestly say that a 3 car 144 is my preferred option.
Below are the types of traction I have used in the last 12 months for roughly 25 return journeys.
142 with bench seats......too uncomfortable. 142 with Northern Spirit seats......much better than the above.
142 with Merseyrail seats......I always need ibuprofen when I get off one.
144 2 car.........better than a 142.
150/1.......terrible leg room and cramped.
150/2......same as 150/1.
153.......only ever had one carriage when I travelled and it got way too packed.
I have only mentioned the types of train I have used, and the 3 car 144 is a clear winner in my opinion.
 

yorksrob

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Every other week I travel from Bingley to Morecambe, a journey of roughly one and a half hours,and I can honestly say that a 3 car 144 is my preferred option.
Below are the types of traction I have used in the last 12 months for roughly 25 return journeys.
142 with bench seats......too uncomfortable. 142 with Northern Spirit seats......much better than the above.
142 with Merseyrail seats......I always need ibuprofen when I get off one.
144 2 car.........better than a 142.
150/1.......terrible leg room and cramped.
150/2......same as 150/1.
153.......only ever had one carriage when I travelled and it got way too packed.
I have only mentioned the types of train I have used, and the 3 car 144 is a clear winner in my opinion.

I find the dissappointing thing about 150's is that it's so difficult to find a decent window seat.

Last time I was on one, I'd lined up the seat I wanted, but some chap slipped in there as I was putting some rubbish in the bin. I noticed him alight mid journey and was about to get my preferred spot, and looked back, and an elderly couple had slipped in there.

I've no doubt that I will come to hate the damn things, although to be fair to them, they seem to have more capacity than appears - when one turns up instead of a 158 on my busy morning commute, I always seem to get a seat.
 

Fisherman80

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I find the dissappointing thing about 150's is that it's so difficult to find a decent window seat.

Last time I was on one, I'd lined up the seat I wanted, but some chap slipped in there as I was putting some rubbish in the bin. I noticed him alight mid journey and was about to get my preferred spot, and looked back, and an elderly couple had slipped in there.

I've no doubt that I will come to hate the damn things, although to be fair to them, they seem to have more capacity than appears - when one turns up instead of a 158 on my busy morning commute, I always seem to get a seat.
The windows on a 144 are better,I just find the leg room on the 150s shocking.....and I'm only 5"8!
 

ed1971

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The windows on a 144 are better,I just find the leg room on the 150s shocking.....and I'm only 5"8!

The 153s with Richmond seating are even worse. I am 6"1 and there is no legroom and I have to leave my knees sticking out in the gangway.
 

PeterY

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Being from the deep south a Pacer ride is an experience and it was last year I had my first ride on one. To be honest I actually enjoy them. :D:D:D:D.

Earlier this year I did a South Wales 4 day rover to get as many pacers in as possible. The highlight was one on the Fishguard branch. Loads of jointed track.

All being well a Northwest rover next month and hopefully lots of pacers, which will be my last change to have a good bash on them. :'(:'(
 

Jozhua

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Younger readers will find it difficult to imagine how different things were in 1985. Here on the Hope Valley line we only had an hourly fast train between Sheffield and Manchester. The stopping service only went as far as New Mills with a change for Manchester and it wasn't even a regular two hourly interval.

Class 101s operated. I'd first travelled on them about 1957 when they were newly introduced on the Newcastle - Carlisle line and back then they seemed brilliant. By 1985 they'd seen a lot of service and my memory is of smelly leaking exhaust fumes.

With such sparse services and growing car ownership passenger numbers were dwindling. Cut costs!

Exit right the 101s, gradually being replaced by new rolling stock, enter left Class 142 Pacers. It's only recently got through that if public transport is to compete with cars more frequent services are needed, and now those workhorse Pacers are being replaced by hourly 150s or 156s.

Returning to 1985 it was noted that faster trains were needed. Dore Station Junction was considered to be a bottleneck due to slow speeds over the junction. So they simplified the tracks to permit faster line speeds - and removed 3 of the 4 station platforms. Good plan with only about 3 or 4 trains per hour over the single line section through the station.

Looking at this with fresh eyes today, be it from an overloaded Pacer running hourly or a similarly crammed fast service half hourly, you may wonder how the tide was turned. It was, and those stalwart Pacers have played their part. We don't hate them, we'd have appreciated more of them. "Please move up the train" announces a Saturday morning guard as she struggles to create space to get back aboard. Good humour all around (mostly young passengers, the future of rail). The bulldog spirit, all very chummy, as long as you don't pass out!

Roll on overfilled 150s and 156s. That's happening now.

View attachment 67017View attachment 67022

Quite an interesting story actually, especially as I am one of those younger readers!

I think the network we have now is definitely more nimble with more frequent services and generally easy to navigate. Definitely glad passenger numbers are growing year on year!

I think the only issue in recent years is that the DfT didn't adequately respond to the growth in passenger numbers fast enough and now we are finally getting new trains, it feels almost too late.

As a young person, I'm trying to avoid getting a car for a few reasons:
1. The cost - Insurance is around £3000 per year, add then the cost of passing your test, especially because it gets harder year on year. The actual car and fuel is a small cost in comparison!

2. Safety - Cars are quite a dangerous way of getting around and as drivers go, I'd be a pretty awful one!

3. Environment - Not only climate change, but cars clog up city streets and make our air hard to breathe, making places less pleasant to be. Plus, the money and carbon emissions saved lets me justify flying quite a bit ;)...

4. City living - I escaped the countryside as fast as possible, I find cities much more pleasant on a whole. Living in Manchester is so much more convenient and much more to see and do, plus you can walk and easily get pretty much anything you'd need.

I really hope future jobs won't force me to get a car. I'll weigh the cost of actually getting one against applying for anywhere that requires it.
 

Mikey C

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Why did the 150s have such a lousy seating layout? The 455s may have originally had those horrible low back seats, but at least all the seats were facing and the legroom was tolerable
 

Sprinter107

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Why did the 150s have such a lousy seating layout? The 455s may have originally had those horrible low back seats, but at least all the seats were facing and the legroom was tolerable
The 150/1 units did originally have all seating bays. They didn't have any airline style seats. The 150/2 were built with airline style seats.
 
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