The last coal train?

[ajay1071]

And the Welsh Gov's decision to pander is purely a political one.

So if they ignored the locals concern

And the Welsh Gov's decision to pander is purely a political one.

So not sure what point you're making, are you against politians listening and acting on people's concerns. Yes we all know about the 20mph implementation. Seems the Welsh Government are damed if they do and damed if they don't in some people's eyes. .

 

[tiptoptaff]

So if they ignored the locals concern

So not sure what point you're making, are you against politians listening and acting on people's concerns. Yes we all know about the 20mph implementation. Seems the Welsh Government are damed if they do and damed if they don't in some people's eyes. .

They kiboshed a huge, well-paying local employer because a handful of vocal NIMBYs. Economically it was a poor decision. The cancelling of the relief road was a poor economic decision.

 

[ajay1071]

I agree with you first point , but if I had to endure the pollution problems that the residents had to endure I would probably be one of your NIMBYs. As for the relief road the cost of that were escalating, by the millions every few months, so perhaps it was a right decision for those ever increasing monies be best spent on existing road improvements or public transport infrastructure. Indeed that relief road had many objectors itself be they environmentalist such as the greens or the ones who are trying to protect the Gwent levels, not to mention the residents in other areas of North/West Wales who often complain that they get a raw deal when it comes to capital investment and expenditure.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I agree with you first point , but if I had to endure the pollution problems that the residents had to endure I would probably be one of your NIMBYs. As for the relief road the cost of that were escalating, by the millions every few months, so perhaps it was a right decision for those ever increasing monies be best spent on existing road improvements or public transport infrastructure. Indeed that relief road had many objectors itself be they environmentalist such as the greens or the ones who are trying to protect the Gwent levels, not to mention the residents in other areas of North/West Wales who often complain that they get a raw deal when it comes to capital investment and expenditure.

And yet it was sorely needed. And still it. It cripples South Wales and that decision will do for decades to come.

Unfortunately, improving the 46 bus in Trebanog doesn't solve the issues that the M4 relief road would have.

One of the biggest points of contention qas that Welsh Labour campaigned on "vote for us and we'll build the road" and continued that promise to until Drakeford became FM. And because he didn't like it, it was scrapped. Despite it being a campaign pledge supported by a huge number of his Party's supporters. And what convinced a chunk not to defect to Plaid. They, myself included, became disenfranchised with who and what we thought we'd voted for.

And then he's made similar decisions time and again that appear to appease a vocal minority and harm us economically in the long term.

 

[ajay1071]

Is it really needed as it once was?, what with many people working from home and the general trend for more and more ,of especially the younger generations, finding it difficult to fund their personal motoring costs and are increasingly turning to public transport.
No i don't think your number 46 bus will resolve the M4 issues but more frequet cost effective trains to places like the comuter run to Bristol along with more direct bus links to major town across the boarder, those will go along way to persuade people to use public transport and resolve your concerns.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Yes. Yes it is. That stretch of the M4 is always extremely congested and causes huge delays any time from 2-7pm on a week day, and a chunk of days on weekends.

Those were what was spouted at the time but it's not true. You can't modal-shift inbound and outbound HGVs

 

[ajay1071]

And yet it was sorely needed. And still it. It cripples South Wales and that decision will do for decades to come.

Unfortunately, improving the 46 bus in Trebanog doesn't solve the issues that the M4 relief road would have.

One of the biggest points of contention qas that Welsh Labour campaigned on "vote for us and we'll build the road" and continued that promise to until Drakeford became FM. And because he didn't like it, it was scrapped. Despite it being a campaign pledge supported by a huge number of his Party's supporters. And what convinced a chunk not to defect to Plaid. They, myself included, became disenfranchised with who and what we thought we'd voted for.

And then he's made similar decisions time and again that appear to appease a vocal minority and harm us economically in the long term.

Well that is what many politicians do of all political persuasions. I mean look at the cancellation of the norther part of HS2 and the astronomical waste of money in design and compulsory purchase of land and buildings by the Tory government. At least the Welsh government cancelled the M4 relief project before any major expenditure.

Yes. Yes it is. That stretch of the M4 is always extremely congested and causes huge delays any time from 2-7pm on a week day, and a chunk of days on weekends.

Those were what was spouted at the time but it's not true. You can't modal-shift inbound and outbound HGVs

Many major transport companies are thinking of the future and even some are contemplating the use of rail freight, think of Amazon and their increasinguse of drones ,early stages i know but who knows what the future holds.. To be honest any freight over a 200 mile destination should in all seriousness ,if practible, be transported by rail.

 

[geoffk]

you seem to have missed that all but one of the coal power stations in the UK have closed, and that the final one is closing this year.

Similarly, both steelworks are planning for a future without coal - so coal demand in this country is evaporating, and is already mostly gone, and the little that is left will soon be gone. The UK won't be using imported coal at all soon.

Don't forget heritage railways.

 

[Trainbike46]

Don't forget heritage railways.

As others have pointed out, heritage railways are a tiny user of coal - you cannot run a coal mine just for them - so alternatives should be sought, ideally ones that aren't just importing coal from elsewhere

Coal has use in other industries - such as cement; in recent years coal trains have run to the cement works at Oxwellmains, Hope and Penyfford, and I may have missed others.

I wasn't intending to give a complete list of all coal users in the country, so only included the two (historically) biggest industries using it, being electricity and steel.

However, various cement industry players are also looking to stop using coal (e.g. Cemex using household waste instead of coal as fuel: https://www.cemex.co.uk/alternativefuels.aspx )
Other industries using coal are likely looking to switch away too.

Coal as an industry is dying - so it is key that we look to provide other forms of employment where people are likely to lose their jobs

 

[HSTEd]

Don't forget heritage railways.

Heritage railways would amount to a small number of trainloads per year for the entire country.
There is unlikely to be sufficient output in any commercial coal facility to make that market worse serving.

Heritage railways are likely to convert to biomass or to oil firing, or stop operating steam locomotives.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Mixed train arriving at Porthmadog yesterday conveying coal from Dinas (first 2 vehicles):

 

[AlastairFraser]

Yes. Yes it is. That stretch of the M4 is always extremely congested and causes huge delays any time from 2-7pm on a week day, and a chunk of days on weekends.

Those were what was spouted at the time but it's not true. You can't modal-shift inbound and outbound HGVs

Maybe you could work out a scheme to toll traffic heading for West Wales (including Swansea/NPT) through the worst bit at Brynglas once the Heads of the Valleys dualling is complete?

 

[Dan G]

And it didn‘t need to be on, as there is plenty of cheaper power going spare at present, not least around 20GW of Gas generation that’s been sat doing nothing for almost a week. One suspect they are burning simply to get rid of their stockpile, as that is going to be cheaper than transporting it away in 5 months time.

This week has been remarkable for power geenration, it has seen the highest ever combined wind and solar output, the lowest ever fossil fuel output, the lowest ever Gas output, and consequently the lowest ever CO2 emmissions (down at 9g/kwh for a time yesterday, which is only 2% of the average emissions of the grid a year ago). And power prices were negative for most of the weekend. I imagine anyone on Octopus agile with an EV has been very happy.

Ratcliffe currently operates one unit occasionally to provide grid stability services. Other methods of supplying stability will be in place by September.

Edit: as Nick pointed out in the very next post!

 

[duffield]

Ratcliffe currently operates one unit occasionally to provide grid stability services. Other methods of supplying stability will be in place by September.

Edit: as Nick pointed out in the very next post!

There's an interesting (and somewhat sad) article in The Guardian about the impending shutdown of Ratcliffe. I'm going to miss the cooling towers, they always signal "nearly home" when coming back from London.

Relevant quote:

At Ratcliffe-on-Soar in Nottinghamshire, the turbines will stop spinning for good this year as the UK meets its pledge to ban coal use. We meet staff proud of the site’s 56-year history

 

[M7R]

I went past there yesterday on the A453 and I’m used to seeing the huge coal mountain outside, there’s hardly anything left now. I will miss it as I grew up around Chilwell, Attenborough and Long Eaton, and the chimney and towers always dominated the skyline,

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There's an interesting (and somewhat sad) article in The Guardian about the impending shutdown of Ratcliffe. I'm going to miss the cooling towers, they always signal "nearly home" when coming back from London.

Relevant quote:

Nice article by Guardian to remind people of how much coal contributed to our society and communities almost a bit conflicting for them given their green agenda these days. I liked this quote which shows how interwined railfreight was with coal fired electricity generation

East of the boiler house, Ratcliffe’s near-empty coal yard stands as a reminder, if one were needed, that the site’s operational life is running low, too. The yard has taken more than 140,000 deliveries of coal since the late 1960s – originally from the collieries that mined Britain’s rich seams of coal.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Maybe you could work out a scheme to toll traffic heading for West Wales (including Swansea/NPT) through the worst bit at Brynglas once the Heads of the Valleys dualling is complete?

Even when complete, HoV wouldn't cope with the volume of traffic that would force on to it, nor would the A48 as people try to avoid the Toll if they were driving to anywhere between Newport and Neath, for which the HoV wouldn't be a viable alternative.

HoV is massively out of the way of the M4, starting in Neath and ending in Abergavenny

 

[AlastairFraser]

Even when complete, HoV wouldn't cope with the volume of traffic that would force on to it, nor would the A48 as people try to avoid the Toll if they were driving to anywhere between Newport and Neath, for which the HoV wouldn't be a viable alternative.

HoV is massively out of the way of the M4, starting in Neath and ending in Abergavenny

I know it is, but there's good roads from the M4 near Newport to Abergavenny and it connects to the M4 at the other end.
Maybe full grade separation of sections of the A48 and a SOV toll M4 24-28 is the answer.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I know it is, but there's good roads from the M4 near Newport to Abergavenny and it connects to the M4 at the other end.
Maybe full grade separation of sections of the A48 and a SOV toll M4 24-28 is the answer.

If you were going to do that, would have just been easier to build the relief road.

 

[Topological]

This is all way off-topic, but the big problem for the M4 in Newport is that it has too many junctions. Close some of those and the road would be much better. However, that then means more traffic on local roads and the associated problems.

In my mind, I had always assumed there would be continued coal mining on a very small scale in the UK. Whether that would mean a train was the best transportation option I don't know. It may not even be commercially viable to have mining that did not produce train loads of coal. However, the merry-go-round trains of old would definitely be gone, and the infrastructure that supported them be less likely to find alternative use.

It is a circle-closing observation to note that the improvements to the heads of the valley road come long after the heavy traffic of coal mining has ceased.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Coal mining will perhaps continue on a small scale in the Forest of Dean?

 

[tumbles]

Coal mining will perhaps continue on a small scale in the Forest of Dean?

Still got freeminers working in FoD but even those workings seem to be slowly dying out.

 

[crosscity]

Is this the last coal train?

Already underway today (Mon 29Apr2024):
6M61 0800 Immingham-Ratcliffe (arr 11:17)

Empties leaving Ratcliffe as
4E87 1358 Ratcliffe-Barnetby

 

[Dan G]

Is this the last coal train?

Already underway today (Mon 29Apr2024):
6M61 0800 Immingham-Ratcliffe (arr 11:17)

Empties leaving Ratcliffe as
4E87 1358 Ratcliffe-Barnetby

A post above suggested these trains are wagons being taken to Ratcliffe for storage

Both of those trains after the 16th January were empty wagons for storage in Ratcliffe. The last loaded departure from Immingham was on the 16th

 

[crosscity]

A post above suggested these trains are wagons being taken to Ratcliffe for storage

That was correct. The difference today is the train came from Immingham HIT, and returned to Barnetby. There are rumours that there will be more trains from Immingham HIT to Ratcliffe. I live in hope.

Rob McRorie posted this photo on Flickr of today's 6M61 - clearly showing it was loaded.

Beginning of the End by robmcrorie, on Flickr

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That was correct. The difference today is the train came from Immingham HIT, and returned to Barnetby. There are rumours that there will be more trains from Immingham HIT to Ratcliffe. I live in hope.

Rob McRorie posted this photo on Flickr of today's 6M61 - clearly showing it was loaded.

Beginning of the End by robmcrorie, on Flickr

Ratcliffe has certainly been run alot this year even today with high levels of wind and solar they've had one unit on load so clearly they expect to use the old girls a while longer if they are topping up supplies.

 

[Dan G]

That was correct. The difference today is the train came from Immingham HIT, and returned to Barnetby. There are rumours that there will be more trains from Immingham HIT to Ratcliffe. I live in hope.

Rob McRorie posted this photo on Flickr of today's 6M61 - clearly showing it was loaded.

Beginning of the End by robmcrorie, on Flickr

Interesting caption

I think that this is the first of the last 30 coal trains into Ratcliffe

Thirty (well, 29 now) more trains between now and September? That seems rather a lot.

 

[Killingworth]

Interesting caption


Thirty (well, 29 now) more trains between now and September? That seems rather a lot.

Paths booked but most won't be used

 

[Rail Ranger]

Ratcliffe may possibly be used while other power stations (nuclear, gas or Drax) are undergoing summer maintenance?

 

[xotGD]

The relative price of coal and natural gas determines where Ratcliffe sits in the merit order. Cheap coal, and it come on ahead of CCGT plant.