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The Liverpool Killing

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Gathursty

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We will have seen the news that a 9 year old girl was killed in a gangland hit gone wrong in Knotty Ash, Liverpool.

Link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-62642060.amp

A man was reported to have fired a gun in a house on Kingsheath Avenue in Dovecot at 22:00 BST on Monday.
The girl was shot in the chest and died in hospital, while a man also suffered gunshot wounds to his body and a woman was shot in the hand.
Merseyside Police has put a cordon in place as officers hunt the gunman. Assistant Chief Constable Jenny Sims said the shooting was "truly shocking".
"No parent should ever have to suffer the loss of a child in these dreadful circumstances," she said.
"This crime is abhorrent and our communities must come forward and tell us who is responsible.

My questions are:

1) Would you offer lifelong anonymity and protection to Joseph Nee for names of those responsible for the death of this 9 year old girl like Maxine Carr has been granted after lying for Ian Huntley?

2) Grassing/snitching: It is clear that communities up and down the country out of fear or some kind of Robin Hood/Peaky Blinder deference will not talk to the police. What can be done to change this?
 
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Bevan Price

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It is a difficult question; an ex-lady friend (not from Liverpool) once told me that some of her neighbours did not trust the police to ensure their total anonymity if they gave evidence.

Personally I think for anyone convicted of murder, the mandatory sentence of life in prison should mean precisely what it says - they will never be released. Although there are too many vested interests to stop this happening, it is a pity that the private sale, possession & transfer or guns and ammunition are not banned and treated as a severe criminal offence.
 

birchesgreen

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To be honest i would be wary of trusting the police too, its not unknown for criminals to have cops in their pocket after all. I just hope its never a situation i ever find myself in.
 

baz962

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Answer to number 1. Yes
Answer to number 2 . People should grow up and do the right thing.
 

Cloud Strife

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2) Grassing/snitching: It is clear that communities up and down the country out of fear or some kind of Robin Hood/Peaky Blinder deference will not talk to the police. What can be done to change this?

It's very, very hard to change. The omerta in these communities is incredibly strong, not helped by the fact that people often spend their lives living in and around them. This is exactly the same problem that the British Army had in Northern Ireland, and it was why the policy of police primacy in Northern Ireland was never going to work when the RUC wasn't reformed.

The Lyra McKee murder was and is a textbook example of this. People know fine well who murdered her, but they won't speak. There's simply no trust in the police forces in these communities, and the paramilitaries to this day are acting as an unofficial police service. The truth is that they often assault and shoot people for things like a disagreement in the pub, which also helps to enforce the omerta.

Then there's the issue of police corruption. I don't know anything about Merseyside, but the old Strathclyde Police were notoriously corrupt and in the pocket of gangsters. Paul Ferris has written and spoken about this at detail.

If anyone is interested in how this works, there's an excellent film called A Mother Takes Her Son To Be Shot:
or
(not sure if these will work in the UK). It's in Derry, and you can see that there's absolutely no question of collaborating with the police.
 

scarby

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Personally I think for anyone convicted of murder, the mandatory sentence of life in prison should mean precisely what it says - they will never be released.
I do not agree. There have for example been many cases where abused women have been convicted of murdering their husband/partner. In one I recall some years ago the lesser manslaughter charge was not acceptable as the woman had planned the killing, obtained a gun and then executed her husband as he slept. It had to be murder, but the judge recommended the minimum term possible for this, noting that they had no alternative to do so but it was a very tragic case.
 

ainsworth74

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I do not agree. There have for example been many cases where abused women have been convicted of murdering their husband/partner. In one I recall some years ago the lesser manslaughter charge was not acceptable as the woman had planned the killing, obtained a gun and then executed her husband as he slept. It had to be murder, but the judge recommended the minimum term possible for this, noting that they had no alternative to do so but it was a very tragic case.
Quite. An automatic life sentence seems perfectly reasonable with whatever minimum term (note the word minimum, they will not be automatically released as they have to go through the parole board first) for murder. But an automatic life without the possibility of parole sentence for murder seems like it removes vital flexibility from the sentencing to accommodate the complexities of life.
 

Herefordian

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1 - If the information given led to a correct conviction, yes.
2 - It's a pathetic mindset. Sadly, I believe it is too engrained for anything to change.

As for life imprisonment, I agree with Bevan Price, it should mean life.

People like those responsible for this tragedy should not be allowed to return to society.
 

dgl

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I wouldn't be surprised in this case if it did end up being life in prison, I doubt other prisoners would be too friendly to someone who had killed a child and life may end up being a rather short sentence.
 

Cloud Strife

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I wouldn't be surprised in this case if it did end up being life in prison, I doubt other prisoners would be too friendly to someone who had killed a child and life may end up being a rather short sentence.

By all accounts, prison staff generally turn a blind eye to the various issues that such prisoners have. I won't give specifics here, but there are examples of other child killers who were beaten very badly in prison with zero consequences for the perpetrator.

But please, let's remember here that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

But an automatic life without the possibility of parole sentence for murder seems like it removes vital flexibility from the sentencing to accommodate the complexities of life.

Agreed. There are cases where murder could be justified, especially where the victim has suffered systematic abuse. Let's say someone is imprisoned for years by another person, and they carefully plan a way to murder their prisoner. They carry out the murder, and in this case, it would mean automatic life without parole. Anyone reasonable would say that the right sentence is a life sentence with a minimum sentence of time served, because this was their only option if they wanted to escape.
 

Bevan Price

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By all accounts, prison staff generally turn a blind eye to the various issues that such prisoners have. I won't give specifics here, but there are examples of other child killers who were beaten very badly in prison with zero consequences for the perpetrator.

But please, let's remember here that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.



Agreed. There are cases where murder could be justified, especially where the victim has suffered systematic abuse. Let's say someone is imprisoned for years by another person, and they carefully plan a way to murder their prisoner. They carry out the murder, and in this case, it would mean automatic life without parole. Anyone reasonable would say that the right sentence is a life sentence with a minimum sentence of time served, because this was their only option if they wanted to escape.
I accept that argument, so perhaps there ought to be different "classes" of murder, as I think there is in some other countries, but with a Class 1 for totally unjustified killings which received "permanent life sentences".
 

Springs Branch

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I'm not across chapter & verse of precise definitions of murder and manslaughter in English law. But I wondered - now that arrests have been made - whether the gunman could be charged with murder of Olivia Pratt-Korbel, or if this would be manslaughter?

My amateur understanding is to be convicted of murder, it needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that you had clear intent to kill that person.

In the Liverpool example, would the gunman be charged with:-
  • Attemped murder of Joseph Nee (clearly that was the intent)?
  • Manslaughter of Olivia Pratt-Korbel (gunman had no prior intent to kill her)?
  • Wounding of Cheryl Korbel?
Or does the fact you're running around suburban streets firing a gun in the presence of other people, intended victims or not, automatically make it a murder / attempted murder offence?

News reports on the web are suggesting the arrested man was arrested on suspicion of 1x murder and 2x attempted murders, but presumably he has not yet been formally charged with anything.

Anyone know the murder / manslaughter difference and how this might affect an eventual sentence?

[EDIT]And can a suspect go to trial for murder, but be found Not Guilty of murder, but Guilty (and sentenced for) manslaughter?
 
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Purple Train

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I'm not able to help with precise definitions, but I believe you can be convicted of murder without having developed a clear intent to kill your particular victim. I recall a case a little while ago when a violent burglar was convicted on two counts of murder but avoided a whole-life tariff because he intended (at least) to cause serious injury rather than to kill. But I am very happy to be corrected if I am wrong.
 

JamesT

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I'm not across chapter & verse of precise definitions of murder and manslaughter in English law. But I wondered - now that arrests have been made - whether the gunman could be charged with murder of Olivia Pratt-Korbel, or if this would be manslaughter?

My amateur understanding is to be convicted of murder, it needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that you had clear intent to kill that person.

In the Liverpool example, would the gunman be charged with:-
  • Attemped murder of Joseph Nee (clearly that was the intent)?
  • Manslaughter of Olivia Pratt-Korbel (gunman had no prior intent to kill her)?
  • Wounding of Cheryl Korbel?
Or does the fact you're running around suburban streets firing a gun in the presence of other people, intended victims or not, automatically make it a murder / attempted murder offence?

News reports on the web are suggesting the arrested man was arrested on suspicion of 1x murder and 2x attempted murders, but presumably he has not yet been formally charged with anything.

Anyone know the murder / manslaughter difference and how this might affect an eventual sentence?

[EDIT]And can a suspect go to trial for murder, but be found Not Guilty of murder, but Guilty (and sentenced for) manslaughter?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferred_intent allows for the killing of Olivia Pratt-Korbel to be treated as murder as the accused had the intent to kill Joseph Nee.

in English law) is a legal doctrine that holds that, when the intention to harm one individual inadvertently causes a second person to be hurt instead, the perpetrator is still held responsible. To be held legally responsible, a court typically must demonstrate that the perpetrator had criminal intent (mens rea), that is, that they knew or should have known that another would be harmed by their actions and wanted this harm to occur. For example, if a murderer intends to kill John, but accidentally kills George instead, the intent is transferred from John to George, and the killer is held to have had criminal intent.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/homicide-murder-and-manslaughter is probably the most definitive description of the differences.
Murder is automatically a life sentence, manslaughter isn’t necessarily that long. It is possible for someone to be tried for murder but only convicted of the lesser offence, either by a partial defence (e.g. diminished responsibility) succeeding, or both offences being tried and the prosecution only succeeded in proving the lesser.

Murder and manslaughter are two of the offences that constitute homicide.

Manslaughter can be committed in one of three ways:

  1. Killing with the intent for murder but where a partial defence applies, namely loss of control, diminished responsibility or killing pursuant to a suicide pact.
  2. Conduct that was grossly negligent given the risk of death, and did kill ("gross negligence manslaughter"); and
  3. Conduct taking the form of an unlawful act involving a danger of some harm that resulted in death ("unlawful and dangerous act manslaughter").
 
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Ediswan

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I'm not across chapter & verse of precise definitions of murder and manslaughter in English law. But I wondered - now that arrests have been made - whether the gunman could be charged with murder of Olivia Pratt-Korbel, or if this would be manslaughter?

My amateur understanding is to be convicted of murder, it needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that you had clear intent to kill that person.
I had wondered the same. There is a legal doctrine of 'transferred malice': http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Transferred-malice.php
The doctrine of transferred malice applies where the mens rea of one offence can be transferred to another. For example, suppose A shoots at B intending to kill B, but misses and hits and kills C. Transferred malice can operate so that the mens rea of A (intention to kill B) can be transferred to the killing of C. Consequently A is liable for the murder of C, despite the fact that he did not actually intend to kill C.​
 

Busaholic

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Murder does not have to be pre-meditated and can be perfectly random. If a man decides down a street with a sub-machine gun aiming it at all and sundry, and a dozen people get killed, it would be ludicrous to then just charge him with twelve manslaughters. The victims can just have been 'in the wrong place at the wrong time' as the saying goes.
 

ainsworth74

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I accept that argument, so perhaps there ought to be different "classes" of murder, as I think there is in some other countries, but with a Class 1 for totally unjustified killings which received "permanent life sentences".
I'm not actually sure that that's necessary as Schedule 21 of the Sentencing Act 2020 gives us all the flexibility that we require to deal with these issues as it sets the starting points for a minimum term when it comes to the mandatory life sentence for murder.

It tells us that if the court considers that the seriousness of the offence (or a combination of the offence or one and more others associated with it) is exceptionally high and the offender was aged 21 or over when the offence was committed then the appropriate starting point is a whole life order (Schedule 21 Paragraph 2(1)).

Cases which would normally be considered as meeting that level of seriousness are defined as being the murder of two or more people where each involved a substantial degree of premeditation or planning, the abduction of the victim or sexual or sadistic conduct. As well as the murder of a child involving the abduction of the child or sexual or sadistic motivation, the murder of a police or prison officer in the course of their duties (if committed after 13 April 2015), a murder for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause or finally where the offender has previously committed murder (Schedule 21 Paragraph 2(2)).

Where a case doesn't meet the above criteria we move on and where the court feels that the seriousness of the offence (or associated offence(s)) is particularly high and the offender is 18 or over when the offence was committed then our starting point is a minimum term of 30 years (Schedule 21 Paragraph 3(1)).

Cases which would normally meet the criteria for seriousness include a murder involving a firearm or explosive, a murder done for gain (such as in the course of or furtherance of a robber, burglary, for payment or in the expectation of a gain as a result of the death), to obstruct or interfere with the course of justice, murder involving sexual or sadistic conduct, murder of two or more persons, a murder aggravated by racial or religious hostility or hostility related to sexual orientation, murder aggravated by hostility related to disability or transgender identity (where committed after 3 December 2012), the murder of a police or prison officer in the course of their duty before 13 April 2015 or a murder that would have fit into paragraph 2(2) (see above) but the offender was aged under 21 when committed (Schedule 21 Paragraph 3(2)).

I suspect that in this case we're going to be having a starting point of 30 years due to the use of a firearm.

There's then a couple of others that follow similar lines to the above, murder if you've brought a knife or other weapon to the scene intending to commit any offence or have it available as a weapon and used it to commit a murder then that's a 25 year minimum term (Schedule 21 Paragraph 4), if you were aged 18 or over and none of the proceeding apply then its 15 years minimum (Schedule 21 Paragraph 5), if you were under 18 then the starting point is 12 years minimum (Schedule 21 Paragraph 6).

The schedule also goes on to give us indication as to the factors that may be relevant to aggravation or mitigation (that is things which may increase the starting point or reduce it) and to my reading the list is not intended to be exhaustive. For instance things that would aggravate include a significant degree of planning or premeditation, if the victim was particularly vulnerable due to age or disability (one that I suspect will apply in this case), abuse of a position of trust, and others (Schedule 21 Paragraph 9). Factors of mitigation include an intention to cause serious bodily harm rather than kill, lack of premeditation, a belief that the murder was an act of mercy, and others (Schedule 21 Paragraph 10).

So hopefully we can see that already there is a massive amount of flexibility available within the existing sentencing regime for murder without the need for a separate category of murders that depend on the severity of the murder. I can see how having a nice neat "This murder was so serious it is Murder in the First Degree" would appeal but I'm not sure it actually serves any purpose when we can deal with the issue of severity using the sentencing law that is already on the books.

As an amateur who is interested in the law it strikes me that our fella in this case is likely to face a minimum term of at least 30 years and I suspect that it may well go higher depending on the level of aggravation. It's always possible that they might manage to get it reduced to something below 30 years (could argue that it wasn't premeditated and if they plead guilty at an early point that can also lead to a reduction) but I'd be surprised if after weighing up aggravation, any other offences that were being committed at the same time, any criminal history alongside any mitigation was enough to get it much if at all below 30 years and I still wouldn't be surprised if it ended up at more than 30 years.

Considering they're 36 at the moment they'll be doing extra ordinarily well to see the outside of a prison, on licence recall not a free man, before they're in their late 60s.

Of course the above presupposes that they're guilty. At the moment of course they benefit from the presumption of innocence and the Crown Prosecution Service will have to persuade a jury to be sure of guilt first!
 

Bevan Price

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BBC TV news reported earlier that two people arrested have been released "on bail".
 

yorksrob

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I think that the country has the right balance.

Murder receives a "life" sentence with the possibility of parole, but the courts have the option of the whole life tariff in particularly heinous circumstances.
 

Herefordian

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I'm not across chapter & verse of precise definitions of murder and manslaughter in English law. But I wondered - now that arrests have been made - whether the gunman could be charged with murder of Olivia Pratt-Korbel, or if this would be manslaughter?

My amateur understanding is to be convicted of murder, it needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that you had clear intent to kill that person.

In the Liverpool example, would the gunman be charged with:-
  • Attemped murder of Joseph Nee (clearly that was the intent)?
  • Manslaughter of Olivia Pratt-Korbel (gunman had no prior intent to kill her)?
  • Wounding of Cheryl Korbel?
Or does the fact you're running around suburban streets firing a gun in the presence of other people, intended victims or not, automatically make it a murder / attempted murder offence?

News reports on the web are suggesting the arrested man was arrested on suspicion of 1x murder and 2x attempted murders, but presumably he has not yet been formally charged with anything.

Anyone know the murder / manslaughter difference and how this might affect an eventual sentence?

[EDIT]And can a suspect go to trial for murder, but be found Not Guilty of murder, but Guilty (and sentenced for) manslaughter?

Murder doesn't have to be premeditated.

Manslaughter is either accidental or an act of self defence. There's no way that charge can apply in this case.

In the Ava White trial, the defendant was tried for, and found guilty of, murder, but there was an alternate charge of manslaughter.
 

yorksrob

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As I understand it, manslaughter would be if you did something stupid that resulted in peoples deaths, but didn't intend to.

In this case, someone was firing a firearm in an urban home, so there's no question that they were using lethal force. It will be murder - the question is whether the courts decide on whole life or not
 

Flying Snail

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Murder doesn't have to be premeditated.

Manslaughter is either accidental or an act of self defence. There's no way that charge can apply in this case.
Self defence is not Manslaughter. It is in it self a justification for killing someone. Extreme circumstances would be needed but if deemed appropriate either a reason for declining to bring charges or if tried an argument for full acquittal.
 

Herefordian

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Self defence is not Manslaughter. It is in it self a justification for killing someone. Extreme circumstances would be needed but if deemed appropriate either a reason for declining to bring charges or if tried an argument for full acquittal.

If reasonable force is used, that is correct.

If excessive force is used, that is manslaughter.
 

JamesT

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Have I misunderstood what the media was saying about two of the men being released on bail, with one of them due to be returned back to prison?

Has the murderer of the young girl been apprehended?
That is what has been reported https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-62702468

It’s impossible to know without being inside the investigation, but I’d suggest that if the police thought they had a solid case against someone they would be charging them rather than releasing on bail.
 
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