• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The "Look him in the eye" adverts

Status
Not open for further replies.

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
You do it when you breathe and talk, small droplets of water are in your breath, and that's how covid spreads, the virus is carried in the droplets

But that's not 'spitting' is it? and it doesn't alter the fact that however many theories people produce as to why masks might work, the fact is that the stats show no evidence that they actually do work in practice!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Green tractor

Member
Joined
30 Aug 2019
Messages
227
Location
Lancaster
Of all the measure's masks are the least harmful to the economy, they are cheap, simple and something nearly everybody can do. What would you do instead?
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
Of all the measure's masks are the least harmful to the economy, they are cheap, simple and something nearly everybody can do. What would you do instead?

They are not 'least harmful' to those of us who can't wear them. I have to put up with being treated like toxic scum on a fairly regular basis - low level harassment is common.

They are also extremely bad for the environment as they create large amounts of plastic containing waste.

Instead I would do nothing at all - a lot of the problem is that politicians want to be seen to be doing something - even if it doesn't actually achieve anything.
 

Green tractor

Member
Joined
30 Aug 2019
Messages
227
Location
Lancaster
They are not 'least harmful' to those of us who can't wear them. I have to put up with being treated like toxic scum on a fairly regular basis - low level harassment is common.

They are also extremely bad for the environment as they create large amounts of plastic containing waste.

Instead I would do nothing at all - a lot of the problem is that politicians want to be seen to be doing something - even if it doesn't actually achieve anything.

So the hospitals would be overwhelmed, urgent cancer treatment would be stopped and more people would die.

Note I said nearly everybody can wear one. My mates wife has asthma and has been told by her doctor she shouldn't wear one.

Fabric washable masks don't create toxic waste.

If you can't wear a mask wear a visor instead, not as effective but you are showing willing.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
6,538
Location
UK
How about the study from Barasheed et al?
You do it when you breathe and talk, small droplets of water are in your breath, and that's how covid spreads, the virus is carried in the droplets
Yes, but it's only droplets that interact with the mucosal membranes that matter. Not droplets that fall onto you moccasins.



Perhaps the proof is Barasheed et al, that found no statistically detectable difference between masked and non masked groups for respiratory illnesses based on laboratory testing.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
So the hospitals would be overwhelmed, urgent cancer treatment would be stopped and more people would die.

Fabric washable masks don't create toxic waste.

If you can't wear a mask wear a visor instead, not as effective but you are showing willing.

So hospitals would be overwhelmed because of not imposing measures which don't make any measurable difference anyway? Err, right.

Many people don't wear fabric washable masks - they use disposable plastic ones. This is undeniably the case.

What gives you the right to tell me that I should 'show willing' and carry a large plastic visor around everywhere? As with masks, they make no measurable difference.
 

Green tractor

Member
Joined
30 Aug 2019
Messages
227
Location
Lancaster

The paper says most of the study's were of below average quality

Look at what happened with hospitals in January and February, that was with measures.

You are expected to wear a seatbelt, stick to the speed limits and stick to other rules, why is wearing a mask/visor any different. At work I'm expected to wear a variety of PPE, steel toe capped boots, dust masks, high viz etc, we just do it.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036

The paper says most of the study's were of below average quality

Not sure what point you are making? There are loads of cherry picked 'literature reviews' like the one you link to.

But the fact is that mask mandates have no measurable impact on infection trajectories. In any normal scientific field that would be taken to show that they don't work.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
6,538
Location
UK
So the hospitals would be overwhelmed, urgent cancer treatment would be stopped and more people would die.
There's no evidence they do anything, so this is just manipulative emotive drivel.

Provide clear evidence and a full cost-benefit analysis, or stop with your fabricated doomsday situations.
 

Master Cutler

Member
Joined
23 Jan 2021
Messages
188
Location
Mansfield
Regarding the Look them in the eyes adverts, if we count the number of times during the second peak the adverts were broadcast in all forms on all media, against how many infections/deaths were prevented, is there any evidence that the ads worked?
I would say absolutely that the adverts had no impact whatsoever on the rates of infection or deaths during the second peak in comparison to the first peak of infections and deaths.
Therefore I can only conclude that as the adverts didn't reduce the hospital admissions or the infection and death rates they were a colossal waste of money on the part of the Government.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
There is zero evidence that the hospital situation would have been any worse without masks.

Masks as worn in public are not officially classed as PPE - if they were, they would have to meet specific standards.

If you chose to do a job which requires PPE that is your decision, and that PPE will be mandated because it does make a measurable difference in the specific circumstances - which muzzles in Tesco do not.
 

Eyersey468

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2018
Messages
2,135
So the hospitals would be overwhelmed, urgent cancer treatment would be stopped and more people would die.

Note I said nearly everybody can wear one. My mates wife has asthma and has been told by her doctor she shouldn't wear one.

Fabric washable masks don't create toxic waste.

If you can't wear a mask wear a visor instead, not as effective but you are showing willing.
Given that a lot of the face coverings/masks etc on sale specifically say on them they are NOT sold as PPE how can it be said they make any difference?
 

Green tractor

Member
Joined
30 Aug 2019
Messages
227
Location
Lancaster
They are not for your personal protection though are they, they are to protect others

There is zero evidence that the hospital situation would have been any worse without masks.

Masks as worn in public are not officially classed as PPE - if they were, they would have to meet specific standards.

If you chose to do a job which requires PPE that is your decision, and that PPE will be mandated because it does make a measurable difference in the specific circumstances - which muzzles in Tesco do not.

You are saying you would have no measures at all, not just no masks.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,651
Can you provide some scientific papers which prove they dont reduce the spread?

Jacobs, J. L. et al. (2009) “Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: A randomized controlled trial,” American Journal of Infection Control, Volume 37, Issue 5, 417 – 419. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19216002

N95-masked health-care workers (HCW) were significantly more likely to experience headaches. Face mask use in HCW was not demonstrated to provide benefit in terms of cold symptoms or getting colds.

Cowling, B. et al. (2010) “Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: A systematic review,” Epidemiology and Infection, 138(4), 449-456. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic- review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05

None of the studies reviewed showed a benefit from wearing a mask, in either HCW or community members in households (H). See summary Tables 1 and 2 therein.

bin-Reza et al. (2012) “The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence,” Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses 6(4), 257–267. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00307.x

“There were 17 eligible studies. … None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection.”

Smith, J.D. et al. (2016) “Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis,” CMAJ Mar 2016 https://www.cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567

“We identified six clinical studies … . In the meta-analysis of the clinical studies, we found no significant difference between N95 respirators and surgical masks in associated risk of (a) laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, (b) influenza-like illness, or (c) reported work-place absenteeism.”

Offeddu, V. et al. (2017) “Effectiveness of Masks and Respirators Against Respiratory Infections in Healthcare Workers: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis,” Clinical Infectious Diseases, Volume 65, Issue 11, 1 December 2017, Pages 1934–1942, https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/65/11/1934/4068747

“Self-reported assessment of clinical outcomes was prone to bias. Evidence of a protective effect of masks or respirators against verified respiratory infection (VRI) was not statistically significant”; as per Fig. 2c therein:



offeddu-chart-verified-respitory-infections.png



Radonovich, L.J. et al. (2019) “N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel: A Randomized Clinical Trial,” JAMA. 2019; 322(9): 824–833. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214

“Among 2862 randomized participants, 2371 completed the study and accounted for 5180 HCW-seasons. ... Among outpatient health care personnel, N95 respirators vs medical masks as worn by participants in this trial resulted in no significant difference in the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza.”

Long, Y. et al. (2020) “Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks against influenza: A systematic review and meta-analysis,” J Evid Based Med. 2020; 1- 9. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jebm.12381

“A total of six RCTs involving 9,171 participants were included. There were no statistically significant differences in preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza, laboratory-confirmed respiratory viral infections, laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, and influenza-like illness using N95 respirators and surgical masks. Meta-analysis indicated a protective effect of N95 respirators against laboratory-confirmed bacterial colonization (RR = 0.58, 95% CI 0.43-0.78). The use of N95 respirators compared with surgical masks is not associated with a lower risk of laboratory-confirmed influenza.”
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
6,538
Location
UK
Based on developing syndromic ILI, less contacts became symp- tomatic in the ‘mask’ tents compared to the ‘control’ tents (31% versus 53%, p= 0.04). However, laboratory results did not show any difference between the two groups.

Barasheed, Osamah, et al. "Pilot randomised controlled trial to test effectiveness of facemasks in preventing influenza-like illness transmission among Australian Hajj pilgrims in 2011." Infectious Disorders-Drug Targets (Formerly Current Drug Targets-Infectious Disorders) 14.2 (2014): 110-116.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
They are not for your personal protection though are they, they are to protect others
That's how it's spun, but in practice there is no evidence of that actually happening.

You are saying you would have no measures at all, not just no masks.
That wasn't what you asked - your question was what would I use instead of masks.

I wouldn't remove every restriction, but a lot of them I would - there are a lot which have no evidence for making any difference - e.g. closing non essential shops among others.
 

Green tractor

Member
Joined
30 Aug 2019
Messages
227
Location
Lancaster
Jacobs, J. L. et al. (2009) “Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: A randomized controlled trial,” American Journal of Infection Control, Volume 37, Issue 5, 417 – 419. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19216002

N95-masked health-care workers (HCW) were significantly more likely to experience headaches. Face mask use in HCW was not demonstrated to provide benefit in terms of cold symptoms or getting colds.

Cowling, B. et al. (2010) “Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: A systematic review,” Epidemiology and Infection, 138(4), 449-456. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic- review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05

None of the studies reviewed showed a benefit from wearing a mask, in either HCW or community members in households (H). See summary Tables 1 and 2 therein.

bin-Reza et al. (2012) “The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence,” Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses 6(4), 257–267. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00307.x

“There were 17 eligible studies. … None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection.”

Smith, J.D. et al. (2016) “Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis,” CMAJ Mar 2016 https://www.cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567

“We identified six clinical studies … . In the meta-analysis of the clinical studies, we found no significant difference between N95 respirators and surgical masks in associated risk of (a) laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, (b) influenza-like illness, or (c) reported work-place absenteeism.”

Offeddu, V. et al. (2017) “Effectiveness of Masks and Respirators Against Respiratory Infections in Healthcare Workers: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis,” Clinical Infectious Diseases, Volume 65, Issue 11, 1 December 2017, Pages 1934–1942, https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/65/11/1934/4068747

“Self-reported assessment of clinical outcomes was prone to bias. Evidence of a protective effect of masks or respirators against verified respiratory infection (VRI) was not statistically significant”; as per Fig. 2c therein:



offeddu-chart-verified-respitory-infections.png



Radonovich, L.J. et al. (2019) “N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel: A Randomized Clinical Trial,” JAMA. 2019; 322(9): 824–833. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214

“Among 2862 randomized participants, 2371 completed the study and accounted for 5180 HCW-seasons. ... Among outpatient health care personnel, N95 respirators vs medical masks as worn by participants in this trial resulted in no significant difference in the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza.”

Long, Y. et al. (2020) “Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks against influenza: A systematic review and meta-analysis,” J Evid Based Med. 2020; 1- 9. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jebm.12381

“A total of six RCTs involving 9,171 participants were included. There were no statistically significant differences in preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza, laboratory-confirmed respiratory viral infections, laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, and influenza-like illness using N95 respirators and surgical masks. Meta-analysis indicated a protective effect of N95 respirators against laboratory-confirmed bacterial colonization (RR = 0.58, 95% CI 0.43-0.78). The use of N95 respirators compared with surgical masks is not associated with a lower risk of laboratory-confirmed influenza.”

They are all about protection for the wearer, which is not what it's about.

The best analogy is the 30mph speed limit, it is not there for the safety of the driver.
 

Richard Scott

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
3,673
They are all about protection for the wearer, which is not what it's about.

The best analogy is the 30mph speed limit, it is not there for the safety of the driver.
Going off track but the 30 limit is as much there for the driver as anyone else, one person in a car hitting a concrete structure is better off at 30 than a higher speed. Sure we've done all this mask stuff before, if they were so great why did infections not drop when they were mandated? Just more pandering from the government and fed up with adverts about wearing masks as much as the latest round telling me every window kept open etc. All nonsense, unfortunately a lot of people don't have enough scientific background to realise a lot of these are pointless. Ok at the start, handwashing and distancing made sense but afraid most of the rest is pointless restrictions from politicians who want to be seen to be doing something.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
15,688
Location
Devon
This thread has served its purpose now and keeps drifting off into discussions about masks anyway, so thanks everyone as always but we’ll leave it locked from now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top