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The M&SWJR: Gone forever?

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Tiny Tim

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The Midland & South Western Junction Railway closed to passenger traffic in 1961, (so not a victim of the Beeching report) and was an odd little railway that linked Cheltenham to Andover with running powers extending to Southampton. It spent some of it's early life in Chancery (i.e. bankrupt) and relied heavily on military traffic over a route that, apart from Swindon, was mostly rural. A 7 mile section from Andover to Ludgershall remains as a military railway, and the Swindon & Cricklade Railway runs over a couple of miles. Much of the remaining route is clearly visible. It struggled to make a profit for most of it's existence, so it's no surprise that BR ran it down preparatory to closure. It's never been a candidate for any major re-opening or restoration. Is it a completely hopeless case?
 
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Kinghambranch

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No, not a totally hopeless case since, as you pointed out, parts of the old M&SWJR still exist although not in the form they did when the line was in operation. The main growth area is, of course, the Swindon and Cricklade Railway, although its progress has been very slow. At least it is now extending towards Swindon. Blunsdon Station is of course, far busier and far bigger than it was in M&SWJR days! There are plans to build a replica of an original M&SWJR 2-6-0 "Galloping Alice" based on a Beyer Peacock design - the M&SWJR bought 2 of these locos, 1 of which survived long enough to be "Swindonised" by the GWR in 1923 and at least 2 survive in Australian museums. My personal view of this particular new-build project is that it is total bolleaux but we shall see! I would love to see the line rebuilt from Andoversford to Andover again but BR was determined to get rid of it and it was only really busy during the 2 world wars with troop and munitions traffic.
 

Tiny Tim

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I hadn't heard about the replica 'Galloping Alice', that's a very strange choice. These B-P locos were hardly elegant or admired. Actually, the M&SWJR's fleet of locos were rather a mixed bag. Some had been bought privately by directors as the Company was bust.
 

Greenback

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The Midland & South Western Junction Railway closed to passenger traffic in 1961, (so not a victim of the Beeching report) and was an odd little railway that linked Cheltenham to Andover with running powers extending to Southampton. It spent some of it's early life in Chancery (i.e. bankrupt) and relied heavily on military traffic over a route that, apart from Swindon, was mostly rural. A 7 mile section from Andover to Ludgershall remains as a military railway, and the Swindon & Cricklade Railway runs over a couple of miles. Much of the remaining route is clearly visible. It struggled to make a profit for most of it's existence, so it's no surprise that BR ran it down preparatory to closure. It's never been a candidate for any major re-opening or restoration. Is it a completely hopeless case?

Unfortunately, in this instance I think we have a pretty hopeless case. Some railways were a hopeless venture even before they opened, and I think this was one of them!
 

SwindonPkwy

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Greenback said:
Unfortunately, in this instance I think we have a pretty hopeless case. Some railways were a hopeless venture even before they opened, and I think this was one of them!

Ouch, sometimes the truth hurts!!

Entering pure fantasy land; given that so many houses have been built to the North of Swindon and Wichelstowe to the South has the potential to have a similar number, I would love to see a tram/light rail route running North South through Swindon and following the old M&SWJR where possible.
 

Greenback

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Ouch, sometimes the truth hurts!!

Entering pure fantasy land; given that so many houses have been built to the North of Swindon and Wichelstowe to the South has the potential to have a similar number, I would love to see a tram/light rail route running North South through Swindon and following the old M&SWJR where possible.

A commuter light rail route or tram system running across Swindon would probably not be as much of a hopeless case as trying to restore the whole line between Swindon and Southampton!
 

CarltonA

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I had the pleasure of using this line when I was in the military. We awaited our train on a rather bleak platform at Ludgershall. Eventually an elderly BR man trudged around the corner with a lamp followed by a reversing train. The train had to be signed for by an officer before we boarded as the Army had to agree to make good any damages to the Mark I coaches. I'm not sure if this type of thing still goes on there.
 

Tiny Tim

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The Ludgershall Military Railway is still officially in use, and the extensive sidings appear to be used, although I don't know what for or how much these days. I'm told that Honda use some of the buildings for storing surplus cars, although they don't arrive or depart by rail. Does anyone know what use this line gets these days?
 

D2022

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The Swindon and Cricklade is, as mentioned, very slowly rebuilding the line between Swindon (Moulden Hill) and Cricklade. BUT they will never be able to get around or into either of those towns, the trackbed isn't left intact due to housing developments and commercial property being built since the line was closed. They also lack the funding (they make a small profit in comparison to other lines) to do any major re-routing work to get them past such large towns, I used to be an active member there and plans to get to the water parks in the Cotswolds were ambitious to say the least. Many of the lines own staff refer to it as a toy train line, basically a place to play trains, not anything more.

They do however have an interesting museum in Blunsdon tracking the history of the line back to its original SM&AR days. A worthy site of note is Swindons Other Railway (google searches will take you there)

I've essentially walked the entire line from Malborough through to South Cerney and alot of the original formation exists in places, even bridges, culverts and station buildings.

The S&CRs plans basically encompass building a station opposite the Tawny Owl pub in Taw Hill for public use while a bigger station is built at Moulden Hill country park, with the very odd possibility of main line access at Sparcells through Network Rails own idea of putting a semi suburban station here when the Kemble line is re doubled, although this idea seems to have fizzled out into nothing. As far as Cricklade goes, due to the formation being lost near the outskirts of the town the idea is to put a station on the elevated section as it comes past the outlying houses, next to the Sustrans path.

Wether either of the terminus stations are ever built is anyones guess, personally I would have my doubts, knowing the S&CRs management.

One thing they have done which strikes me as odd is the choice of a GWR theme for the line, given it was the GWR who plunged it into a state of loss in terms of traffic.

Had the line remained intact, it would be a VERY useful link from the midlands to the southern ports, as well as give Swindon a second station for this traffic. The last traffic into Swindon on this line as far as I can recall were stone trains for the building of the M4. A few photos do exist to back this us, as well as one or two of the drivers on the S&CR actually being the drivers on those services.

One point that must be made, is that Readypower, an on track plant company use the S&CR for training, due to the excellent road/rail system in Blunsdon, in return the S&CR benefit from Readypower doing major work for them for free! Put it this way, if Readypower hadn't arrived on the scene, the southern extension wouldn't be half as long as it is and the idea of getting to Swindon would still be DECADES away with the line won PWAY teams. Plus nearly all the major line work over the past 6 or so years wouldn't have happened.

Like I said, I used to be a member there and to be honest, before Readypower, found it a complete shambles. Most of their stock is privately owned and in a very bad condition, when I was there even the service set of a Mk1 BSK and a SK barely scraped through their fitness to run exams, the 03s are clapped out, the Thumper is in desperate need of overhaul and the steam fleet is mainly, aside from guest locos, industrial shunters.

Just to clarify, the Galloping Alice project is underway, raising funds, although their idea is import a similar locomotive from Australia and convert it. Costly...
 
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GearJammer

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The railway was (i believe) called 'The Spratt & winkle', not quite sure why i took an interest in this line but i did buy a book on it..... trouble is i can't find it to tell you the title (typical).

Given the railways route im surprised this line AND the Winchester-Newbury-Didcot line were closed, they both would have made good freight routes to the north instead of the current route via Reading.
 

D2022

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The Ludgershall Military Railway is still officially in use, and the extensive sidings appear to be used, although I don't know what for or how much these days. I'm told that Honda use some of the buildings for storing surplus cars, although they don't arrive or depart by rail. Does anyone know what use this line gets these days?


Sidenote, nothing leaves or enters Honda Swindon (South Marston) by rail anymore. The wagons for a while were left on the spur but even these have vanished.
 

Ploughman

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The large sheds at Ludgershall used to be the main store for Army A Vehicles or Armoured vehicles. Also some Snowcats stored as well.
C (Plant vehicles)vehicles were near Dowty on the GWR
Not sure were B Vehicles were stored.
Disposals used to be through Ruddington.

I used to be resident in the Army barracks just across the vale from Ludgershall at Perham Down above Tidworth. 1977 - 82 Could see the trains coming and going daily.
 
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The large sheds at Ludgershall used to be the main store for Army A Vehicles or Armoured vehicles. Also some Snowcats stored as well.
C (Plant vehicles)vehicles were near Dowty on the GWR
Not sure were B Vehicles were stored.
Disposals used to be through Ruddington.

I used to be resident in the Army barracks just across the vale from Ludgershall at Perham Down above Tidworth. 1977 - 82 Could see the trains coming and going daily.


Looking on Google the other day, its apparent an awful lot of buildings are derelict. It would be interesting to see if Ludgershall gets further use as it develops as a Supergarrision.

Ive personally thought the line from Lugershall to the canal would make an excellent preserved line. Most of the embankments look intact, and would be a nice run for a locomotive. In fact there is a good case for reinstating Ludgershall- Grafton junction as part of the supergarrison. Tidworth is a fair sized town now, and its increasingly absurd it has no rail access for the people who live there.

Unfortunately Im not sure much of the rest of the line has much potential. The area around Chedworth-Foss cross-Northeast Cirencester looks fairly open and possible to develop as a preserved line, and has some pretty great views, and the last remaining intact MSWJR station. But at both ends you have insurmountable problems of connecting back to a main line, which I think most really long preservation lines need these days to get NRM locomotives in. Alright, the Great Central doesnt have an issue with it, so I perhaps am making too much of it. But it does limit future potential.

Grafton junction to Marlborough? Well again, that looks viable (though the tunnel looks shakey) but is a relatively short run. Swindon-Cricklade probably has the best potential. In fact, looking at a map, there IS a way an extension to Cirencester could be done. If they utilised the bed of the old canal for a short distance (which is never likely to be reinstated as it ran right throught he centre of Swindon) it may be possible to circumvent Cricklade and run through to Cirencester. Just just my idea I may add. Im pretty sure its not been advocated by anyone working there. It woudnt be cheap, and would require a section of the canal filling in and a level crossing.

A shame there isnt more potential here for a really long section of line. There is something about the lines quirkyness ive always found rather charming. It would be incredibly useful today if it had been retained.
 

D2022

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there IS a way an extension to Cirencester could be done. If they utilised the bed of the old canal for a short distance (which is never likely to be reinstated as it ran right throught he centre of Swindon) it may be possible to circumvent Cricklade and run through to Cirencester. Just just my idea I may add. Im pretty sure its not been advocated by anyone working there. It woudnt be cheap, and would require a section of the canal filling in and a level crossing.

Not a chance, it was looked at with the help of local surveyors but eventually it came to light the canal route is still owned by a group (much as the S&CRs trackbed is HIRED all the way to Cricklade) and plans to re-open it are afoot. Works actually started and a section re-instated near Sparcells about a decade ago. Its slow progress but progress none the less. If your ever up the area pop down to where the canal and Golden Valley line run down near Taw Hill, there's some good displays from the group looking to re-instate the waterway. The canal actually still exists all the way through Swindon and plans were drawn up to open some of the sections fairly far into the town centre. But this has never materialised in reality.

Like I said, the S&CR will never get around Cricklade or Swindon without massive investment. We are talking millions and millions.
 
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Not a chance, it was looked at with the help of local surveyors but eventually it came to light the canal route is still owned by a group (much as the S&CRs trackbed is HIRED all the way to Cricklade) and plans to re-open it are afoot. Works actually started and a section re-instated near Sparcells about a decade ago. Its slow progress but progress none the less. If your ever up the area pop down to where the canal and Golden Valley line run down near Taw Hill, there's some good displays from the group looking to re-instate the waterway. The canal actually still exists all the way through Swindon and plans were drawn up to open some of the sections fairly far into the town centre. But this has never materialised in reality.

Like I said, the S&CR will never get around Cricklade or Swindon without massive investment. We are talking millions and millions.

Thats really annoying. They keep banging on about reopening it into swindon, and I really cant see any chance of it ever happening. That is about the only real use for that small section of canal to the south of south cerney. They are better off digging a bypass canal and rerouting it around Swindon which would probably be cheaper and less difficult. After all this same canal runs across the former GWR works, and whilst the archaeology would doubtless be fascinating, the cleanup would cost millions.

As it is, Saul Junction to South Cerney looks viable for the canal. They are doing some extensive works in Stoud where the railway line crosses the canal at the moment. If they can get it back to Cirencester I think that would be achievement enough. I can see ever going East of Swindon is going to be viable.


As for MSWJR, the route south of the motorway to Marlborough looks pretty good, though its severed in a couple of places by a bypass and the former stations being built upon. Again, that would be a nice section of route, but probably requiring too much investment to make viable as a heritage line.

Other than the small sections existing, I think it fair to say the MSWJR is gone for good. The buildup around Cheltenham and Swindon has pretty much put paid for any major section being reinstated. I dont think the Northern section was ever really viable, but I think Swindon-Andover would be a useful freight line if it existed today. A great pity.
 

D2022

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Forgive me Stuart but what do you mean it's really annoying? Which part? In what way? I agree with you on everything else though. And the S&CR were offered the section to Marlborough back when the first formed but because of those reasons you stated turned it down.
 

CarltonA

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The 'B' vehicles Ploughman refers to were kept at Ashchurch mainly. There was a military railway system in Tidworth which was beyond the station area but seems to have been removed long before the station closed. I think the NAAFI built a bowling alley and supermarket on the station site.
 

Class172

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When I used to live in Cricklade, we went on the railway regularly, but that was when I was 3; it would be nice to see the line eventually reach into the town centre, but as stated, it would require large funds.
 
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Forgive me Stuart but what do you mean it's really annoying? Which part? In what way? I agree with you on everything else though. And the S&CR were offered the section to Marlborough back when the first formed but because of those reasons you stated turned it down.

Really annoying that a potential means of future expansion is impossible, because the canal people are dead set on an expansion into Swindon that in my view is impossible. I mean looked at from another way, if the canal folks gave that up for expansion to Cirencester it would be a win win for both sides. The line could bring in people to the canal connection at the water park. As the area is already quite big for tourism the potential here can be seen.

I didnt know they were offered the Marlborough section. A great shame, but looking at it on google earth (i was planning to build the line for railworks) its quite clear it would require massive investment to get any length. Has anyone seriously consider Ludgershall-Grafton Junction? Though the line is severed at either end (by a road and the other end by the canal bridge being removed) that looks quite viable still. In fact I think there was some surviving MSWJR buildings on this section including a water tank.

There was quite an extensive military railway across Salisbury plain. Im not sure it originated at Tidworth or not, but certainly extended from Amesbury (LSWR? I cant remember) Bulford and through to Larkhill, and there were narrow gauge lines that ran across the rest of the plain too. I had thought the section from Amesbury-Larkhill was narrow gauge, though ive read of railway guns (those used in Kent vs the west coast of france) being taken via this line for fire test on the range. So presumably that was standard gauge as well.

As I say, the whole area was littered with narrow gauge. I gather some of the formations can still be seen on the plain. It was an inexpensive means of moving lots of men to rifle ranges in the days before l lorries. There may be the remains of a railhead from one of them near the old RFC base near Druids lodge on the B3086. There is a dirt track that goes all the way to Larkhill, and Ive a suspicion that may have been narrow gauge. Ill have to hit the books.:)
 

Kinghambranch

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A really good website regarding the M&SWJR can be found at:

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/home.html

and it contains a wealth of information about the old M&SWJR including the Tidworth Branch. Interesting to see on the Tidworth page that the old Station site, having been built over in the form of a large Spar supermarket, is now an open space again as the Spar has been demolished! The next thing to do I guess would be to build a railway station!
The M&SWJR was also known as the "Tiddly Dyke" and the "Milky Way", the latter due to the amount of milk traffic it once carried, especially in the Cricklade area. The Spratt And Winkle name referred to that part of the line which ran from Andover to Redbridge in Hampshire (not strictly part of the M&SWJR but those trains ran over it to Southampton of course).
My apologies if you already know about "Swindon's Other Railway" but it is a most informative site.
 

Tiny Tim

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The Larkhill Military Railway was all standard gauge, joining the Bulford Branch of the L&SWR at Ratfyn and heading West into a network of tracks extending to Stonehenge Airfield and Druids Lodge. The Bulford Branch itself finished at Sling, about 4 miles South-West of Tidworth Station. The M&SWJR and the L&SWR competed for military traffic on Salisbury Plain, whilst the GWR tried to build their own railway from the B&HER near Pewsey down the Avon Valley to Salisbury. Neither the M&SWJR or the Bulford Branch were particularly profitable, if the GWR Avon Valley line had been built there wouldn't have been anything like enough traffic to keep three railways going. The War Department objected to the GWR's plans as they didn't want railway tracks running across the vast unpopulated expanse of the Salisbury Plain Military Training area. You'd have thought that the GWR might have noticed the 'vast, unpopulated expanse' bit for themselves, it's hardly the best place for a railway to make money.

The narrow gauge tracks found in various places on Salisbury Plain are for target practice. A small, driverless petrol engined loco towed targets back and forth, automatically reversing at each end of the track. I think we can guess why they were driverless.
 
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There was also a small branch line to a camp (I forget the name) just outside Amesbury, which came in off the Warminster-Salisbury line. So I guess the GWR did grab some of the Military traffic in the end, albeit fleetingly till they got the MSWJR on grouping.

Incidentally, does anyone know why the GWR got the MSWJR? Considering its heritage, I would have thought the LMS would have been the logical company to have grouped it with?
 

Tiny Tim

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There was also a small branch line to a camp (I forget the name) just outside Amesbury, which came in off the Warminster-Salisbury line. So I guess the GWR did grab some of the Military traffic in the end, albeit fleetingly till they got the MSWJR on grouping.

Incidentally, does anyone know why the GWR got the MSWJR? Considering its heritage, I would have thought the LMS would have been the logical company to have grouped it with?

The branch of which you write was the Bulford Branch, serving the village and army camp of that name. It was originally intended to go to Shrewton, but only reached Amesbury before the L&SWR changed it's mind and diverted it to Bulford. It left the Salisbury-Andover section of the L&SWR near Grateley.

I guess that the GWR and the LMS drew lots for the M&SWJR, and the GWR lost. After grouping most of the M&SWJR locos were taken to Swindon for a makeover, it must have cheesed the the GWR off to have inherited such a collection of lumpy old engines.
 
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The branch of which you write was the Bulford Branch, serving the village and army camp of that name. It was originally intended to go to Shrewton, but only reached Amesbury before the L&SWR changed it's mind and diverted it to Bulford. It left the Salisbury-Andover section of the L&SWR near Grateley.

I guess that the GWR and the LMS drew lots for the M&SWJR, and the GWR lost.
After grouping most of the M&SWJR locos were taken to Swindon for a makeover, it must have cheesed the the GWR off to have inherited such a collection of lumpy old engines.

LOL. Id not looked at it like that but of course you are quite right.:) The singling of the Northern section of the line is one example of the enormous investment the line required. I think the 2-4-0 and 2-6-0 were not bad machines. But even they were largely worn out. I also seem to recall at least brake van was actually an entirely unbraked water tank on the back of a flat wagon....

Re branch line, I actually for some reason typed Amesbury instead of Heytesbury. It would have been the army camp to the east of the village that would have been situationed beneath one of those cap badges carved on the hillside. Damned if I can recall the name of it. It would have been gone by 1920 anyway.
 

Tiny Tim

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Re branch line, I actually for some reason typed Amesbury instead of Heytesbury. It would have been the army camp to the east of the village that would have been situationed beneath one of those cap badges carved on the hillside. Damned if I can recall the name of it. It would have been gone by 1920 anyway.

This must have been the Sutton Veny military railway, I've only heard of it, never seen it on a map. A surprising amount of military history on Salisbury Plain has gone unrecorded. Many US airfields from WWII are impossible to trace, and even the comparatively well known Larkhill Military Railway is somewhat enigmatic. There are cropmarks near Larkhill Camp that indicate a more extensive network than shown in the few records that exist. It's easier to trace the outline of the nearby Durrington Walls (about 4,600 years old) than to follow the layout of the less-than-100-year old railway.

The M&SWJR's locomotive fleet was mostly of the bargain basement variety. One such budget loco was a Beyer Peacock 2-6-0 which earned the un-reassuring nickname of Galloping Alice due to a persistent speed wobble. Despite this rather disconcerting motion, Alice was considered one of the better locos. It doesn't say much for the rest.
 
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Kinghambranch

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This must have been the Sutton Veny military railway, I've only heard of it, never seen it on a map. A surprising amount of military history on Salisbury Plain has gone unrecorded. Many US airfields from WWII are impossible to trace, and even the comparatively well known Larkhill Military Railway is somewhat enigmatic. There are cropmarks near Larkhill Camp that indicate a more extensive network than shown in the few records that exist. It's easier to trace the outline of the nearby Durrington Walls (about 4,600 years old) than to follow the layout of the less-than-100-year old railway.

The M&SWJR's locomotive fleet was mostly of the bargain basement variety. One such budget loco was a Beyer Peacock 2-6-0 which earned the un-reassuring nickname of Galloping Alice due to a persistent speed wobble. Despite this rather disconcerting motion, Alice was considered one of the better locos. It doesn't say much for the rest.

I agree that, from the historical evidence, the M&SWJR had quite a motley selection of motive power, the two 4-4-4Ts being particularly poor "pullers" and the two 2-6-0s, of which "Galloping Alice" survived into GWR ownership, being somewhat unsteady on faster trains due to their 4 ft driving wheels (but they were purchased to handle increased goods traffic from Southampton in any case). However, during Edwardian times, when it could be argued that the Company was at its zenith, the fleet of 9 class L 4-4-0s with 5' 9" driving wheels built for the M&SWJR by North British did an excellent job by all accounts and several were kept on by the GWR after grouping. A trip to Southampton on a M&SWJR "express" in maroon liveried ex-Midland Railway coaches behind an immaculate maroon 4-4-0 before 1914 must have been quite an experience. Contemporary accounts from a Cheltenham resident recall a well-run railway whose coaches and stock were much better than the contemporary GWR stock with which the M&SWJR shared the line from Cheltenham to Andoversford.
http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike310.html
 
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Thing ive always loved about the MSWJR, there was a sign for many years at the Midland Cheltenham station which read 'Direct trains for Paris!'.

Which whilst undoubtedly true, was probably not entirely selling the line fairly when an express probably wouldnt have been lucky to have averaged 30mph cross country. So HS1 it wasnt. :)

Great railway all the same.
 

Tiny Tim

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I'm sure the M&SWJR maintained standards as best they could, but it was an uphill struggle. Apart from spending a considerable period in Chancery (i.e. bankrupt) it was never really very profitable. The GWR didn't do much to help once they absorbed it and BR planned it's closure long before Dr Beeching made his report. It's easy today to see the line's potential, but at the time it was difficult to justify keeping it open.

The M&SWJR is my favourite local line, I'm particularly impressed by the bizarre setup between Savernake and Marlborough, where the GWR also ran trains on it's own branch from the B&HER. The story of how this came about is well worth reading, it's an indictment of how some railways were built for the wrong reasons. I love the eccentricity of having two stations at Savernake, just a few hundred yards apart, and two at Marlborough next door to each other. It's no way to run a railway.
 

Kinghambranch

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I'm sure the M&SWJR maintained standards as best they could, but it was an uphill struggle. Apart from spending a considerable period in Chancery (i.e. bankrupt) it was never really very profitable. The GWR didn't do much to help once they absorbed it and BR planned it's closure long before Dr Beeching made his report. It's easy today to see the line's potential, but at the time it was difficult to justify keeping it open.

The M&SWJR is my favourite local line, I'm particularly impressed by the bizarre setup between Savernake and Marlborough, where the GWR also ran trains on it's own branch from the B&HER. The story of how this came about is well worth reading, it's an indictment of how some railways were built for the wrong reasons. I love the eccentricity of having two stations at Savernake, just a few hundred yards apart, and two at Marlborough next door to each other. It's no way to run a railway.

Indeed, the relationship between the M&SWJR and its larger neighbour ensured that some really strange situations; the 2 stations at Marlborough and Savernake being excellent examples!
 

AndyLandy

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The Midland & South Western Junction Railway closed to passenger traffic in 1961, (so not a victim of the Beeching report) and was an odd little railway that linked Cheltenham to Andover with running powers extending to Southampton.

:o

One of the things that's always irked me about Southampton is that you can't go North from there, which seems quite odd for a place on the South coast, called Southampton. You either have to go to Bristol or Reading/London before you can start making any real progress North.

It's fascinating to hear that this railway once existed, and rather disappointing to learn that it probably has little chance of ever being re-opened.
 
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