The new Northern franchise - what we know

[northwichcat]

Reinstating services formerly via Bolton before Furness and Windermere bore the brunt of the consequences of DMU shortages. ("Cumbria Better Connected" campaign led by Messrs Farron and Woodcock refers")

It was Virgin VHF that caused the original cutback.

 

[ashworth]

The present journey time from Nottingham to Leeds is 2 hours which is not particularly attractive. A new fast service via Westgate with fewer stops south of Sheffield would be very welcome. It would also provide a much needed second hourly service between Sheffield and Leeds, the only really fast train at the moment being the XC service.

I like the Leeds - Lincoln idea but again, how many stops will it have? Will it mean Sheffield finally gets a fast service to Lincoln?

The Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham service is due to get an additional stop soon south of Sheffield with the opening of the new station at Illeston. I think I read somewhere that this is mainly to be served by Northern and not EMT.

It is also to be hoped that any faster service between Sheffield and Lincoln would at least run non stop between Sheffield and Worksop. This then hopefully will make connections at Worksop better for journeys to/from Mansfield.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham service is due to get an additional stop soon south of Sheffield with the opening of the new station at Illeston. I think I read somewhere that this is mainly to be served by Northern and not EMT.

It is also to be hoped that any faster service between Sheffield and Lincoln would at least run non stop between Sheffield and Worksop. This then hopefully will make connections at Worksop better for journeys to/from Mansfield.

I believe the intention is to have a Retford Stopper and a Lincoln Semi Fast.

 

[lejog]

While that's a decent summary, it does seem to be taken from the maps produced at the time of the franchise award and some things changed by the time the Franchise Agreement was signed, as detailed in the Train Service Requirements. And no doubt things will continue to change. Here's a few updates on Calder Valley services.

Bradford and the Calder Valley
An extra train per hour will run from Bradford Interchange to Manchester. This will likely operate via Todmorden as services through Huddersfield (except the hourly service to Manchester Victoria) will be run by TPE.

A new hourly service will run between Leeds and Chester. We do know that this service will run through Hebden Bridge, but whether it serves Bradford or Dewsbury is currently unclear.

Similarly, a new hourly service will be provided between Southport and Leeds and/or Bradford.

It seems likely that at least one of these will serve Bradford to fill the quota of 3tph between Bradford and Manchester. If this is the case, two of the services will be extensions of existing ones. It is difficult to predict which way round the Chester and Southport services will be, but given the wording of the franchisement map, it seems more likely at present that Southport will be given a service to Bradford, while the Chester service will run to Leeds via Dewsbury.[

Indeed, there will be three Northern Connect services into Manchester with new rolling stock, extending to Chester, Liverpool and Manchester Airport and a 4th non-Connect service extended to Southport (operated by 170s). The franchise TSRs raise the possibility that the additional service will run fast from Hebden Bridge to Victoria, making full use of the 90mph upgrade to this section of the line.

Talking to Northern, I get the impression that the idea of the Chester service running limited stop via Brighouse in rush hours is now very unlikely, mainly because it would require an extra arrival at Leeds station (more of which later). So all three Northern Connect services will run via/to Bradford, with the Southport service running through Brighouse and skip-stop to Leeds.

If ever agreement is reached with Network Rail, the TSRs allow rush hour Chester services to run fast from Brighouse, with the rush-hour Victoria-Huddersfield stoppers extended to Leeds to cover the missed out stops and the Southport service switched to run via Bradford.

We know that Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden will benefit from new services. This means that Rochdale, Littleborough and the other stations between Todmorden and Manchester (and also Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge) will retain their current frequency...with one exception.

Moston will see its 2tph frequency restored, meaning that it matches the other stations between Todmorden and Manchester. This is listed as part of the Liverpool/Manchester Airport services, so one of these will call here in all likelihood. It makes sense that services to Moston would also stop at Rochdale and Littleborough among others.

Therefore, it looks likely that Rochdale (and the other stops) will be skipped by one of the other services.

According to the TSRs, Rochdale will get an extra tph, presumably running from the west to the new bay platform. Todmorden gets no change in current service. Hebden Bridge, Halifax and Bradford see the new Northern Connect service. Sowerby Bridge gets extra rush hour services.

Bradford will have an hourly service to Hull and an hourly service to Nottingham via Wakefield Westgate. There will also be an hourly service from Halifax to Leeds, and the service from York to Blackpool North will remain.

The Bradford to Hull service was only mentioned only in the Transport Secretary's Introduction to the Franchise Award, but has not been seen since. Certainly not in the contract, although Northern are to investigate an extra Leeds-Selby service, which I suppose could become Bradford-Hull.

I think you mean an extra Halifax to Leeds service, not a single service! The CP5 plan originally provided for 2 extra Calder Valley trains into Leeds running through to a Mickfield turnback, but the turnback has now gone from CP5 and the only extra train in the Franchise Agreement is Bradford to Nottingham.

thats the bad news, the good news is that increased capacity into Leeds will now be provided by platform extensions/train lengthening to 6*23m.

Also making its first appearance in the Franchise Agreement, is the news that Arriva are to investigate running the Blackburn-Todmorden-Victoria service over the Ordsall Chord to Manchester Airport, in addition to the Bradford service.

 

[backontrack]

According to the TSRs, Rochdale will get an extra tph, presumably running from the west to the new bay platform. Todmorden gets no change in current service. Hebden Bridge, Halifax and Bradford see the new Northern Connect service. Sowerby Bridge gets extra rush hour services.

Wasn't Todmorden included as a 'major station' along with Halifax and Hebden Bridge?

 

[tbtc]

Does anyone know whether the Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Bradford will terminate at Bradford, or is it going to run through to form a Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Beyond service?

There was some confusion previously about services being listed as "Calder Valley to Bradford" (rather than Leeds, i.e. no guarantee that they would all run through to Leeds), so I don't know whether the Nottingham service is in addition to the previously discussed ones or interworks with them?

The only Northern services remaining at Huddersfield will be the hourly Sheffield service, the hourly Leeds via Bradford service, and an hourly Castleford via Wakefield Kirkgate service (which replaces the current Wakefield Westgate service).

Do you know if this means two services an hour from Kirkgate to Castleford, or will this replace (part of) the Sheffield - Kirkgate - Castleford - Leeds service?

That stopper has such a lengthy diversion to serve Castleford that it'd be a lot better if it could run direct north of Wakefield but I've not seen anything to suggest this will be the case.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Wasn't Todmorden included as a 'major station' along with Halifax and Hebden Bridge?

I think the Northern Connect service in question is the Blackpool service, which won't run through Tod.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you know if this means two services an hour from Kirkgate to Castleford, or will this replace (part of) the Sheffield - Kirkgate - Castleford - Leeds service?

That stopper has such a lengthy diversion to serve Castleford that it'd be a lot better if it could run direct north of Wakefield but I've not seen anything to suggest this will be the case.

I'm not sure, though it's a good question given that (a) this would reduce Castleford to Leeds to 1tph unless the Huddersfield service also runs through to Leeds, and (b) almost all, if not literally all buses between Wakefield and Castleford are operated by... Arriva Yorkshire!

 

[backontrack]

I think the Northern Connect service in question is the Blackpool service, which won't run through Tod.

In that case, we know that one of the other Northern Connect services (most likely the Chester one) won't serve Rochdale, Castleton, Mills Hill or Moston (which will switch to the new tph to Manchester).

So this is a potential stopping pattern for the Chester service:

Leeds > New Pudsey > Bradford Interchange > Halifax > Hebden Bridge > Todmorden > Manchester Victoria > Newton-le-Willows > Earlestown (limited) > Warrington Bank Quay > Chester

 

[lejog]

Wasn't Todmorden included as a 'major station' along with Halifax and Hebden Bridge?

Where is this included? Whatever appeared in the ITT or the documents produced at the time of the franchise announcement is now superseded by what appears in the signed contract - the Franchise Agreement. The minimum services Northern have to provide are shown in the Train Service Requirements.

From Manchester, Arriva have to provide the following weekday off-peak services by 2019 - in brackets is my assumption as to what the services will be (they of course include Blackburn and Brighouse services as well as Bradford servces).

Rochdale 5tph (current service + 1tph into the bay?)
Todmorden 4tph (current service only)
Hebden Bridge 4tph, Halifax 3tph, Bradford 3tph (current service + 1 new Northern Connect service?)

Yes the TSRs define the minimum services the franchise has to provide, they are free to provide more stops if they wish - that's why I was careful with my words to say that the TSRs raise the possibility of a direct Victoria to Hebden Bridge service. If Northern decide to stop the train at Rochdale and Todmorden, they can do so without consulting the DfT.

 

[backontrack]

The map describes Todmorden as a 'major station' - therefore I assumed that the Chester service would stop there, but not at Rochdale.

 

[QueensCurve]

We already have a thread or two open about the Arriva Northern Rail franchise, but it's clear that there's a lot of stuff we haven't yet covered.

So I've created this thread. It's a place for cataloguing what we know about the 'improvements' and amendments Northern is making. The map is here: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

Are Windermere services reverting to Class 15x or will they retain Class 185?

 

[J-2739]

and (b) almost all, if not literally all buses between Wakefield and Castleford are operated by... Arriva Yorkshire!

I'm not surprised. Pretty much nearly the whole of West Yorkshire is Arriva territory.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not surprised. Pretty much nearly the whole of West Yorkshire is Arriva territory.

I don't know, Huddersfield, Halifax & Calderdale, inner Leeds, and Bradford are still mostly First, but Yorkshire Tiger are making in-roads. YT are of course owned by Arriva though!

Apologies for the off-topic!

 

[lejog]

I think the Northern Connect service in question is the Blackpool service, which won't run through Tod.

No the figures in my last post are for services from Manchester only, as defined in the Manchester-Hebden Bridge TSR table. The Blackpool-York service is covered in a separate Hebden Bridge to Leeds table.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are Windermere services reverting to Class 15x or will they retain Class 185?

15x initially, then either- 195s then 331s; or 15x right through until the wires are up and then 331s.

 

[QueensCurve]

15x initially, then either- 195s then 331s; or 15x right through until the wires are up and then 331s.

No chance of Class 350 post-wiring then?

 

[lejog]

Does anyone know whether the Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Bradford will terminate at Bradford, or is it going to run through to form a Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Beyond service?

Where Beyond equals Manchester Airport. A good question, I asked someone from Northern this a couple of months ago and they didn't know the answer. I hope its a through service, or at least that a cross-platform connection at Bradford is provided.

 

[Haydn1971]

Any firmer timescales yet for when cascades and new rolling stock will start appearing - when do the CAF units start to be built ?

 

[lejog]

The map describes Todmorden as a 'major station' - therefore I assumed that the Chester service would stop there, but not at Rochdale.

I can only repeat that the Franchise Agreement provides the latest and definitive definition of the services Northern are contractually bound to deliver - not whatever appeared before. Change is the only constant (and yes the contract will change too).

The Chester service will start in 2017 and thus will stop at both Rochdale and Todmorden to maintain the current service.

The extra Northern Connect service only starts in 2019, so if there is fast Victoria to Hebden Bridge service I'd expect it to be either the Manchester Airport or Liverpool service - a Liverpool-Huyton-Victoria-Hebden Bridge-Halifax-Bradford-Leeds service would be interesting.

 

[bradford758]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...NUddkyuDdcp2VNwdOFtRgn4/edit?usp=docslist_api
From the current edition of TRACKLESS, house magazine of the Bradford Trolleybus Association

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The extra Northern Connect service only starts in 2019, so if there is fast Victoria to Hebden Bridge service I'd expect it to be either the Manchester Airport or Liverpool service - a Liverpool-Huyton-Victoria-Hebden Bridge-Halifax-Bradford-Leeds service would be interesting.

As one who visits Hebden Bridge quite regularly, a direct service from Manchester Airport would be like "manna from heaven".

 

[YorkshireBear]

No chance of Class 350 post-wiring then?

None at all. Northern do not have any 350s and won't be getting any.

 

[Haydn1971]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...NUddkyuDdcp2VNwdOFtRgn4/edit?usp=docslist_api
From the current edition of TRACKLESS, house magazine of the Bradford Trolleybus Association

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

Thank you - so essentially not much change until Dec 2017 and new services from Dec 2019

 

[61653 HTAFC]

None at all. Northern do not have any 350s and won't be getting any.

Nor will TPE by the time the branch is wired, so no chance of a 185-style arrangement.

 

[185143]

You mean Doncaster crews sign 333s? That is something I did not know. When was the last time a 333 managed to go on holiday and escape to Doncaster?

They don't. I had a 333 to Bentley in October and trust me, it was a right farce! It was a sunday afternoon, the 321 for our service had failed and a 158 had been sent to fill in. Some time after departure there was a commotion on the platform and we were told to go to Platform 4? And join the unit there as the driver didn't sign 158s. (A medical restriction to EMUs only IIRC). After everyone boarded the train on platform 4 (a 333) I heard the guard say to the platform staff that he was happy to take the train, but would need a traction conductor (or whatever they are called) as he had never been on one in his life!

Eventually left around 40 late, after the PiS decided it was the Bradford train with the next stop being Kirkstall Forge. The line to Shipley was shut that day!

 

[J-2739]

I don't know, Huddersfield, Halifax & Calderdale, inner Leeds, and Bradford are still mostly First, but Yorkshire Tiger are making in-roads. YT are of course owned by Arriva though!

Apologies for the off-topic!

Oh no, forgot the extra smiley face (emoji)!!
Anyways, back to the topic!

 

[northwichcat]

Are Windermere services reverting to Class 15x or will they retain Class 185?

15x initially, then either- 195s then 331s; or 15x right through until the wires are up and then 331s.

If Windermere isn't wired by 2019 (which I think is very likely) then it won't be 15xs until the wires are up because there's a deadline for Northern Connect standard trains. Northern will cease to loan 185s from December 2017 so retaining 185s isn't an option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They have already started doing Windermere - there are masts visible at Oxenholme on the bay line.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[QueensCurve]

They have already started doing Windermere - there are masts visible at Oxenholme on the bay line.

That is part of the Oxenholme remodelling. There is no intention to extend this until full wiring of the branch.

Given the uncertain time in which we live I only hope wiring to Windermere survives.

Here is a view of the end of the wiring, for now.