"The North Of England Is Getting A Rough Deal" discussion

[Starmill]

Certainly basing policy on the current subsidy figure is rather foolish.

I could not agree more. The constant bashing of such services on Northern based on their subsidy figure is getting wearing. They are at least as well used as comparable services elsewhere and all the subsidy figures will tell you is that a train without many people on it isn't going to be profitable. It does not offer a jot of evidence in these cases that any of these services aren't worth running.

Big changes clearly do need to be made, but making them with nought but an emphasis on reducing subsidy is foolish and counterproductive. What needs to happen is a generational change in service, a serious attempt to get more people on the trains and find the correct balance to set the fares.

 

[yorksrob]

Big changes clearly do need to be made, but making them with nought but an emphasis on reducing subsidy is foolish and counterproductive. What needs to happen is a generational change in service, a serious attempt to get more people on the trains and find the correct balance to set the fares.

I think a lot of services need a step change in frequency and length of operating day as the key. I can think of a few places in the North where fares aren't competitive, particularly without such niceties as Network Cards and group save offers.

 

[Moonshot]

I'd compare the facilities for passengers in an M5000 and a pacer to be around the same. Both have very uncomfortable seating and both offer shockingly poor ride quality. Both rely on natural ventilation which makes them very unpleasant on days like today. Actually they're very similar as far as facilities go!

An M5000 is fully accessible and isn't designed to cater for long journeys that pacers can be used on, which is what makes their basicness acceptable.

I agree with what I think Moonshot is getting at about the service though. A tram is very cheap to run and perfectly safe without a guard. Metrolink doesn't need any staff in ticket offices or to help people board or alight - but they do still have some roving staff to assist and do revenue. The model works as far as that goes because the whole thing is so cheap to operate that it can charge high fares and make an operating profit, even with very frequent services. It's good, but because of the planning system in this country the stock that has been ordered is seriously deficient (if it had been known that 116 vehicles were going to be required, then the economies of scale would have been large enough to have a nice bespoke tram well suited to the city, but as the original tender was only for 8 vehicles due to no funded extensions at the time, we got a substandard off-the-shelf design). Compare this to the story of the 700 - much maligned and delayed, but what comes out at the end will at least do the job it has been designed exactly to do!

Now to the integration. I have explained this before many times on this forum, specifically I have explained it to Moonshot twice now. I am not going to do so again after this.

Prior to conversion of the Bury, Altrincham and Oldham-Rochdale lines there was a through-ticket and a guarantee of through service to people travelling from those stations to anyone travelling to any national rail station in the whole country. Oldham to Edinbrugh, for example, was a journey someone I know made recently. Back then, you'd get a reserved train from Manchester and a local connection. If you bought an Advance ticket and the Oldham - Manchester train were late, it would be OK to get a later train from Manchester to Edinburgh at no charge. Now, if there is a delay to a Metrolink service that results in you missing your booked train to Edinburgh, you will lose everything. You won't get more than the cost of the tram ticket back from Metrolink - and that's if you get anything at all, they aren't obliged to give you anything. You will not get a refund on your Manchester to Edinbrugh ticket and you will not be allowed to travel, so you will have to pay for a new ticket to Edinburgh or abandon your trip - does that sound good?

It applies to any and all journeys to and from stations outside the GM area, and sometimes within it. If your national rail train to Manchester from anywhere is late and you miss the last available tram back to Oldham, you will have to pay for your taxi yourself - or walk the many miles at night. If you bought a ticket, advance or no, from anywhere to Oldham back before it's conversion you would have the guarantee of service right through, no matter how late the train to Manchester was. The loss of these guarantees is the great travesty of Metrolink, it significantly increases journeytimes because people have to leave massive contingency time to avoid the risk of missing a Booked Train.

Can somebody please tell me they understand this?

let me put it in simpler terms rather than a whole paragraph of waffle.

I m going to London next week from Picc - I have a Virgin Advance. How do I get to Picc? Easy.....by tram, and I simply put my cash or card in the machine then hop on.....there is a service every 12 minutes.

The beauty of the tram network is that there are 92 stops in the GM area, one of which is Piccadilly - so pretty much anyone can do that.

 

[Starmill]

let me put it in simpler terms rather than a whole paragraph of waffle.

I m going to London next week from Picc - I have a Virgin Advance. How do I get to Picc? Easy.....by tram, and I simply put my cash or card in the machine then hop on.....there is a service every 12 minutes.

The beauty of the tram network is that there are 92 stops in the GM area, one of which is Piccadilly - so pretty much anyone can do that.

I hope you miss your train by 3 minutes and have to pay for a new ticket - and so does Virgin Trains.

Maybe a bit of experience actually using the railway in this country will clear up your misconceptions about the 'waffle' around how well-connected it is.

 

[Moonshot]

I hope you miss your train by 3 minutes and have to pay for a new ticket - and so does Virgin Trains.

Maybe a bit of experience actually using the railway in this country will clear up your misconceptions about the 'waffle' around how well-connected it is.

Why do you hope I miss my train by 3 minutes? Isnt one of the conditions of Advance tickets that your are tied to specific trains? Its down to me how I get to the station......I could drive, I could use bus , i could use tram, i could cycle etc....tram is probably the best option as it stands.

All you ve done is just waffle on about a minor issue in the same way Mr Collins does.....

 

[Starmill]

Why do you hope I miss my train by 3 minutes? Isnt one of the conditions of Advance tickets that your are tied to specific trains? Its down to me how I get to the station......I could drive, I could use bus , i could use tram, i could cycle etc....tram is probably the best option as it stands.

All you ve done is just waffle on about a minor issue in the same way Mr Collins does.....

Let's say you live near Failsworth. You look and the first tram on a Saturday morning is 0629. That will take you to Market Street and then at that time of day the quickest option is probably to walk. You could walk to Piccadilly Gardens and wait again but unless a tram is right there when you arrive that's likely to be a slower option. Now when it was a train you would just find the time of the first train to Victoria from failsworth, add on the minimum connection time to cross Manchester and book the train immediately following it. But now... well according to Traveline the tram is due to arrive at Market Street at 0646. But you can't rely on that can you? It is no more than a 10 minute walk to Piccadilly from Market st tram stop, and then 10 mins minimum connection time there - but surely you agree that's hugely excessive to walk from the main entrance on the station approach to platforms 5,6,7 or 8 where the London trains depart from? So there should be loads of time there to get to Piccadilly for 0706. The London train leaves 9 minutes later at 0715.

Is that enough time? The passenger would have been fully covered in this situation if it were a train they were getting on from Failsworth - they even have 9 minutes extra to play with in case anything goes wrong.

Would you book the 0715 to London in that case? Or air on the side of caution with the 0735? Remember doing that means you might lost 20 minutes at the other end. And still it is far from unlikely that you will miss the train because of a problem that might occur with the Newton Heath single line, or the Victoria single line. You are stuck on the tram and have to run from Market Street but still miss your train. And there you are £70odd down all too easily. What if there is some overrunning engineering work and the tram never turns up? A bus might take half an hour to organise and then a lot longer to arrive. How safe is it really to book the 0735 knowing something like that might happen and you have no cover whatsoever from the train company, and none from Metrolink?

So would you cycle, get a taxi or drive based on that? I certainly wouldn't use the tram if I wanted to catch the 0715. Isn't that clear evidence that Metrolink's lack of integration is damaging to journeys because it leaves them broken up and risky, which makes it more expensive (cost of a taxi because you can't rely on Metrolink even though chances are you'd be fine), worsens journeys because of the excessive contingency (eg. if it were me I'd not feel safe coming from Failsworth with anything before the 0755 to London, as it's a very large sum of money at stake) or just puts people off public transport period.

 

[AM9]

It's now looking like south-eastern posters on this thread can sit back and watch those from the north get into a frenzy licking each other's wounds. They can't even agree amongst themselves what is bad and what isn't.

'Shoebox, sheer luxury, we didn't even ....'

Not for the first time has this thread degenerated into a pointless rant.

 

[yorksrob]

It's now looking like south-eastern posters on this thread can sit back and watch those from the north get into a frenzy licking each other's wounds. They can't even agree amongst themselves what is bad and what isn't.

'Shoebox, sheer luxury, we didn't even ....'

Not for the first time has this thread degenerated into a pointless rant.

And this is opposed to travellers in the South East who get apoplectic if the wrong seat configuration turns up on the Portsmouth line, or the doors on their Gatwick trains are in slightly the wrong place, for example.

 

[Moonshot]

Let's say you live near Failsworth. You look and the first tram on a Saturday morning is 0629. That will take you to Market Street and then at that time of day the quickest option is probably to walk. You could walk to Piccadilly Gardens and wait again but unless a tram is right there when you arrive that's likely to be a slower option. Now when it was a train you would just find the time of the first train to Victoria from failsworth, add on the minimum connection time to cross Manchester and book the train immediately following it. But now... well according to Traveline the tram is due to arrive at Market Street at 0646. But you can't rely on that can you? It is no more than a 10 minute walk to Piccadilly from Market st tram stop, and then 10 mins minimum connection time there - but surely you agree that's hugely excessive to walk from the main entrance on the station approach to platforms 5,6,7 or 8 where the London trains depart from? So there should be loads of time there to get to Piccadilly for 0706. The London train leaves 9 minutes later at 0715.

Is that enough time? The passenger would have been fully covered in this situation if it were a train they were getting on from Failsworth - they even have 9 minutes extra to play with in case anything goes wrong.

Would you book the 0715 to London in that case? Or air on the side of caution with the 0735? Remember doing that means you might lost 20 minutes at the other end. And still it is far from unlikely that you will miss the train because of a problem that might occur with the Newton Heath single line, or the Victoria single line. You are stuck on the tram and have to run from Market Street but still miss your train. And there you are £70odd down all too easily. What if there is some overrunning engineering work and the tram never turns up? A bus might take half an hour to organise and then a lot longer to arrive. How safe is it really to book the 0735 knowing something like that might happen and you have no cover whatsoever from the train company, and none from Metrolink?

So would you cycle, get a taxi or drive based on that? I certainly wouldn't use the tram if I wanted to catch the 0715. Isn't that clear evidence that Metrolink's lack of integration is damaging to journeys because it leaves them broken up and risky, which makes it more expensive (cost of a taxi because you can't rely on Metrolink even though chances are you'd be fine), worsens journeys because of the excessive contingency (eg. if it were me I'd not feel safe coming from Failsworth with anything before the 0755 to London, as it's a very large sum of money at stake) or just puts people off public transport period.

And yet again you post a load of pointless waffle......so lets make it easy for you.

The following is a list of ways you can arrive at Piccadilly in order to catch the every 20 mins flagship Virgin Trains service to London.

1 - By train
2 - By tram
3 - By bus
4 - By taxi
5 - By car
6 - By cycle
7 - By walking

Now why dont you go find out what percentage we can attribute to each of those methods......you may want to start by writng to Virgin first of all and see just how many passengers a day are getting on at Piccadilly. Come back to us when you have found out.

In the meantime, and just for our Southern forumites who may not be aware, we have here in Manchester a brilliant way of getting people around the area by public transport. Its called Metrolink and has 92 stops dotted about the conurbation. Its very simple to use, and is a result of 20 years investement, and indeed is still being heavily invested in. It require no operating subsidy.

So from where I sit in my own area, we are not getting a rough deal at all, and in fact other areas of the UK are investing in light rail as well.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, but light rail isn't the answer to everything, particularly if we are to have a robust inter urban/regional as well as intra urban public transport. This goes for the whole country outside the South East as well as just the North.

 

[Moonshot]

Yes, but light rail isn't the answer to everything, particularly if we are to have a robust inter urban/regional as well as intra urban public transport. This goes for the whole country outside the South East as well as just the North.

i didnt say it was.....clearly it has limits to how far it can be extended. But certainly using that method on routes where local traffic conflicts with inter urban traffic is a win win situation.....ie less local trains to get in the way of faster services between Leeds Manchester Liverpool Newcastle etc....

 

[NotATrainspott]

Maybe the solution to this Metrolink problem is for connecting travel to be included in a National Rail ticket, as you can get Z1 Tube travel in London. Then, if Metrolink or any other public transport mode does fail you can get the same sort of help as there is if you are using a National Rail service to get to the main station for your connection. The costs of implementing this couldn't be too high when ITSO technology is being rolled out everywhere and it would encourage people to use public transport to get to their long-distance train, something that will be very important for the green credentials of HS2 with its out-of-town stations.

 

[Moonshot]

Maybe the solution to this Metrolink problem is for connecting travel to be included in a National Rail ticket, as you can get Z1 Tube travel in London. Then, if Metrolink or any other public transport mode does fail you can get the same sort of help as there is if you are using a National Rail service to get to the main station for your connection. The costs of implementing this couldn't be too high when ITSO technology is being rolled out everywhere and it would encourage people to use public transport to get to their long-distance train, something that will be very important for the green credentials of HS2 with its out-of-town stations.

Metrolink is already doing this .....they have smart card readers at each stop which are being used by trialist passengers. Its also currently possible to buy tickets at TVMs which include local rail travel.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe the solution to this Metrolink problem is for connecting travel to be included in a National Rail ticket, as you can get Z1 Tube travel in London. Then, if Metrolink or any other public transport mode does fail you can get the same sort of help as there is if you are using a National Rail service to get to the main station for your connection. The costs of implementing this couldn't be too high when ITSO technology is being rolled out everywhere and it would encourage people to use public transport to get to their long-distance train, something that will be very important for the green credentials of HS2 with its out-of-town stations.

Metrolink can be included on a NR ticket but only when the origin is a NR station not a Metrolink stop.

For instance you can buy a London Terminals to MediaCity Metrolink Off-Peak return but you cannot buy a MediaCity Metrolink to London Terminals Off-Peak return. However, if you are using the return part of a London Terminals to MediaCity Metrolink ticket and a Metrolink problem causes you to miss the last Manchester-London train then the most you'll get is an apology from Metrolink and maybe a free day of travel on Metrolink. Neither Metrolink or Virgin will arrange provision for you to be transported home or put in a hotel overnight or issue you with rail travel vouchers like would happen if a delayed rail service from Bolton to Manchester caused you to miss the last London train.

 

[Moonshot]

Metrolink can be included on a NR ticket but only when the origin is a NR station not a Metrolink stop.

For instance you can buy a London Terminals to MediaCity Metrolink Off-Peak return but you cannot buy a MediaCity Metrolink to London Terminals Off-Peak return. However, if you are using the return part of a London Terminals to MediaCity Metrolink ticket and a Metrolink problem causes you to miss the last Manchester-London train then the most you'll get is an apology from Metrolink and maybe a free day of travel on Metrolink. Neither Metrolink or Virgin will arrange provision for you to be transported home or put in a hotel overnight or issue you with rail travel vouchers like would happen if a delayed rail service from Bolton to Manchester caused you to miss the last London train.

can we have some hard facts of how many passengers have had to find a hotel for the night because a delayed rail service from Bolton to Manchester was delayed? Do a full year of say 2013.....would be grateful for that ..

 

[northwichcat]

can we have some hard facts of how many passengers have had to find a hotel for the night because a delayed rail service from Bolton to Manchester was delayed? Do a full year of say 2013.....would be grateful for that ..

Moonshot - I'm describing what the current ticketing situation is. Everything I said in the last post is a fact, even though you don't seem the facts that make Metrolink look inferior to National Rail. However, in my opinion given the facts most people wouldn't try to leave MediaCity 40 minutes before the last Piccadilly train using Metrolink and would leave earlier or get a taxi instead to avoid the risk of being left stranded overnight. If you want to write a freedom of information request to Northern, TPE and Virgin to try and get the answer to your question then you do that. Bolton was just one example, if you want the full picture then I suggest you do it for every station in the North West without a direct London service.

The smart card ticketing you mentioned is only for journeys fully within Greater Manchester. It doesn't solve a problem which exists for people who live in Stretford/Sale/Timperley and work in Knutsford and yes such people exist.

 

[Moonshot]

Moonshot - I'm describing what the current ticketing situation is. Everything I said in the last post is a fact, even though you don't seem the facts that make Metrolink look inferior to National Rail. However, in my opinion given the facts most people wouldn't try to leave MediaCity 40 minutes before the last Piccadilly train using Metrolink and would leave earlier or get a taxi instead to avoid the risk of being left stranded overnight.

The smart card ticketing you mentioned is only for journeys fully within Greater Manchester. It doesn't solve a problem which exists for people who live in Stretford/Sale/Timperley and work in Knutsford and yes such people exist.

How did the above answer my question? All I asked was how many passengers had to book a hotel etc....all I need is a number so I can get an idea just how many are affected this way ....

 

[northwichcat]

How did the above answer my question? All I asked was how many passengers had to book a hotel etc....all I need is a number so I can get an idea just how many are affected this way ....

I added to my post how you can get hold of that information, if you care about it so much. However, the TOCs may of course refuse to tell you if they feel the information is commercially sensitive.

Although it's also worth remembering it's good to have insurance there in case things go wrong - how many people claim on travel insurance each year compared to the number who consider it necessary to take out travel insurance?

 

[Moonshot]

I added to my post how you can get hold of that information, if you care about it so much. However, the TOCs may of course refuse to tell you if they feel the information is commercially sensitive.

Although it's also worth remembering it's good to have insurance there in case things go wrong - how many people claim on travel insurance each year compared to the number who consider it necessary to take out travel insurance?

i dont care about it at all.....its you who brought the issue up in the first place. Is it a regular feature on Metrolinks twitter feed ( assuming they have one ).? Im only trying to get a real sense of how big an issue this is with the ordinary fare paying public. If it was 100 passengers per day, it would obviously be of some concern......if it was 1 per year, less so. You ve highlighted what you think is an issue, but cant quantify it...


It doesn't solve a problem which exists for people who live in Stretford/Sale/Timperley and work in Knutsford and yes such people exist

By the way , what the problem above?

 

[Peter Lanky]

can we have some hard facts of how many passengers have had to find a hotel for the night because a delayed rail service from Bolton to Manchester was delayed? Do a full year of say 2013.....would be grateful for that ..

Why the need for a batch of statistics? This is a friendly (I hope) discussion, not parliament passing an important bill.

 

[Moonshot]

Why the need for a batch of statistics? This is a friendly (I hope) discussion, not parliament passing an important bill.

I m just trying to get a sense of proportion here.....I like using hard facts to back up points myself. I cannot argue with factual evidence.

 

[northwichcat]

It doesn't solve a problem which exists for people who live in Stretford/Sale/Timperley and work in Knutsford and yes such people exist

By the way , what the problem above?

The fact that someone doing the reverse journey can get a cheaper through ticket.

I'm not sure what it is that's causing you to act the way you do even time someone hints at something negative regarding Metrolink. Either you're employed as a salesman for Metrolink and are getting paid the more posts you make where you sell Metrolink or maybe you have a disability such as autism where you struggle to see things from a different point of view.

Anyway back to the topic of rail in the whole of the North - opposed to a tram system serving one city in the North. It seems an unusual option will be offered to bidders of the next Northern franchise as an option for Pacer replacement, as discussed in another thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103488&page=6, LU D78s could be converted to 4 car DEMUs - called 278s which will have toilets and 150 seats with Yorkshire Train Company in conjunction with Wabtec to produce a prototype next year, the cost estimated to be 1/3 of the cost of a new build.

 

[Moonshot]

The fact that someone doing the reverse journey can get a cheaper through ticket.

I'm not sure what it is that's causing you to act the way you do even time someone hints at something negative regarding Metrolink. Either you'r e employed as a salesman for Metrolink and are getting paid the more posts you make where you sell Metrolink or maybe you have a disability such as autism where you struggle to see things from a different point of view.

Anyway back to the topic of rail in the whole of the North - opposed to a tram system serving one city in the North. It seems an unusual option will be given to bidders of the next Northern franchise as an option for Pacer replacement, as discussed in another thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103488&page=6, LU D78s could be converted to 4 car DEMUs - called 278s which will have toilets and 150 seats with Yorkshire Train Company in conjunction with Wabtec to produce a prototype next year, the cost estimated to be 1/3 of the cost of a new build.

Im not employed as a salesman for Metrolink - I work for Northern rail as you know. And I ll defend Northern if i see something negative that I dont feel is justified. I dont struggle with anyones point of view....particularly if its backed up with some hard facts, and as I said I cannot argue with hard facts.

Where does it say in the title of this thread the posts have to be exclusively about Heavy Rail? But now that you mentioned it , I asked you a question just a little further up about an issue you mentioned affecting passengers travelling to Knutsford which is on the heavy rail network? Whats the issue.?

 

[northwichcat]

Where does it say in the title of this thread the posts have to be exclusively about Heavy Rail? But now that you mentioned it , I asked you a question just a little further up about an issue you mentioned affecting passengers travelling to Knutsford which is on the heavy rail network? Whats the issue.?

I answered the question and you included the answer in the quote in your post!

From Knutsford you can buy through tickets to Sale: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=KNF&dest=SLE

But from Sale you can't buy a ticket beyond the PTE boundary. Buying two separate tickets costs more.

The primary focus of the UK Railway Discussion forum is supposed to be for posts primarily focused on "Discussion of any UK railway topic not covered elsewhere." There's another forum for "buses, trams, metros, light rail and any other forms of public transport." Of course it's up to the moderators if they decide they want to split threads or remove posts from threads, as they have done with other threads where one person has brought up DOO and then more posts in the thread talk about DOO than the original topic title.

 

[Moonshot]

I answered the question and you included the answer in the quote in your post!

From Knutsford you can buy through tickets to Sale: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=KNF&dest=SLE

But from Sale you can't buy a ticket beyond the PTE boundary. Buying two separate tickets costs more.

Sorry ...missed that.

is this something that is regularly discussed at the meetings of the Mid Cheshire Rail Users Association when you attend meetings ? Do the MCRUA have regular meetings with both Northern Rail and Metrolink about it ?

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry ...missed that.

is this something that is regularly discussed at the meetings of the Mid Cheshire Rail Users Association when you attend meetings ? Do the MCRUA have regular meetings with both Northern Rail and Metrolink about it ?

MCRUA do have meetings with Metrolink e.g.: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2014/06/03/mcrua-metrolink-ratp-dev-liaison-meeting-may-2014/

I imagine Northern would have no issues with Sale Metrolink to Knutsford tickets, given the reverse are available and the issue lies with Metrolink not wanting to have tickets available which can't be purchased from their TVMs.

 

[Moonshot]

MCRUA do have meetings with Metrolink e.g.: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2014/06/03/mcrua-metrolink-ratp-dev-liaison-meeting-may-2014/

I imagine Northern would have no issues with Sale Metrolink to Knutsford tickets, given they have the reverse and the issue lies with Metrolink not wanting to have tickets available which can't be purchased from their TVMs.

how often do you go to meetings? Are they a good place to get your concerns heard and passed on etc? Have you got any examples of where you have personally voiced an issue over the years and its eventually been acted on?

 

[northwichcat]

how often do you go to meetings? Are they a good place to get your concerns heard and passed on etc? Have you got any examples of where you have personally voiced an issue over the years and its eventually been acted on?

If you look at the link you'll see Metrolink invited the chairman of MCRUA to a meeting to discuss issues MCRUA had put forward to Metrolink. It wasn't a meeting where just anyone could turn up. MCRUA are well aware of ticketing and connection issues, the chairman himself once missed the last train from Altrincham as a result of a Metrolink delay and had to get a taxi back to Mobberley while the meeting report mentions commuters giving up on trying to use public transport to get between Cheshire and Salford Quays due to issues with connections.

 

[Moonshot]

If you look at the link you'll see Metrolink invited the chairman of MCRUA to a meeting to discuss issues MCRUA had put forward to Metrolink. It wasn't a meeting where just anyone could turn up. MCRUA are well aware of ticketing and connection issues, the chairman himself once missed the last train from Altrincham as a result of a Metrolink delay and had to get a taxi back to Mobberley while the meeting report mentions commuters giving up on trying to use public transport to get between Cheshire and Salford Quays due to issues with connections.

Ok ...how often do you go to meetings of the MCRUA itself though...ie with fellow members.? is is a good place to get your opinions voiced? How good are MCRUA in getting a good deal for your part of the North?

 

[Bantamzen]

In the meantime, and just for our Southern forumites who may not be aware, we have here in Manchester a brilliant way of getting people around the area by public transport. Its called Metrolink and has 92 stops dotted about the conurbation. Its very simple to use, and is a result of 20 years investement, and indeed is still being heavily invested in. It require no operating subsidy.

So from where I sit in my own area, we are not getting a rough deal at all, and in fact other areas of the UK are investing in light rail as well.

We're all chuffed for you, we really are. And on the few occasions I've had to cross Manchester I've used Metrolink & it's been OK. But the North does not around Manchester revolve. Having an extensive light rail system in a few centres doesn't mean that all is suddenly well up here. There's a vast amount of improvements needed before we can start to slap ourselves on the backs. And indeed some similar projects have been turned down by the DfT, such as the Leeds tram proposal which has now been downgraded to a trolley bus scheme, and even that is still being argued about.

But it's not just about getting into the centres & main rail hubs, it's how we get about the rest of the region & onto other transport networks. For example, how many airports up here have anything like a half decent service? Away from Manchester, I can only think of Newcastle (reasonable service), Liverpool (gets you to a bus service to take you to reasonably short drive to the airport) & Teeside (let's not go there). If the North is to really attract business in, it needs to be connected into Europe & beyond. And as for the time being at least it seems that HS2 won't offer anything like that without changing at London, so maybe out airports need better connections. I know there are plans to improve the connections at Manchester (including Metrolink), but what about better links to Liverpool & Newcastle, as well as new links to Leeds/Bradford, Robin Hood? I don't know how good the connections are to Robin Hood, but to LBA they are a joke (from Leeds 3 buses per hour, from Bradford 2, all of which regularly suffer big delays in traffic).

And then there are all those lines around the North routinely packed yet operated often by 1, 2, 3 or if you are lucky 4 car services. Many lines themselves need speed upgrades, and sometimes doubling up as they can't offer any additional paths (not that the stock exists yet), and many stations can't cope with anything more than 4 car services (although again the stock doesn't exist yet). Even with the planned upgrades in & around the Northern Hub there are shortfalls. The Ordsall Cord once approved with relieve a severe pressure point to the South of Piccadilly, but doesn't really solve the problem of pathing services through Manchester. It's still a pinch point, as it is to the east of Leeds, or the north of Sheffield to mention a couple. The North TP electrification project will bring some good improvements, but what happens if there is a blockade? Where will the EMUs be routed to, or where will replacement DMUs come from to run non-electric routes (assuming of course there are any paths available)? The list goes on & on.

So although Manchester has seen lots of improvements, there is so much more to do up here. Of course all this comes at a huge cost, but they are needed to try to restart the economy up here. Maybe, just maybe a rethink is needed on HS2. Although in principle I'm in favour of a high speed network, I'm not if it's at the cost of other potential improvements within the region (capacity release as a result of HS2 notwithstanding). How many projects could be kick-started with even a fraction of the HS2 budget, and the risk of simply sending yet more talent to the capital & eventually losing them altogether?