The North really is grim

[Metroland]

Why not take a look at the maps in the press release for this (2006) report? http://www.localfutures.com/Assets/1592/well-being barometer.pdf It seems that the 'north-south' divide is less pronounced than one may think.

That map is much more accurate and tells the real story I think.

 

[Oswyntail]

Having lived and worked in several parts of the UK, I would say that the only sensible "divide" is between those within mass commuting distance of London and the rest of the country; those in the first group (IMHO) are focussed inwards (perhaps because of the tribulations of having to work in London, and spend a large part of their lives travelling to work), while those outside look around them.Of course, this varies in distance, and there are buffer zones (like, eg Oxford and Peterborough). Two contentious assertions for you:-
1) I can think of only one genuinely creative major artistic contributor who was born in the "London" zone and learnt their trade there, as opposed to becoming creative outside and moving there - and he was mad!
2) If you want to talk about vile accents, the genuine London accent takes some beating!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What about Cornwall on that Map? One of the poorest counties in the country so much so that it meets the criteria for EU poverty funding (Convergence funds and before that Objective One). It is no surprise that many in the South West believe there is a Northern bias when it comes to UK government funding for infrastructure!

I have said this before and I'll say it again. Draw a map of England and draw thick red lines where Pacers have been or are still there running services. Then colour the map in yellow where you feel are areas of social deprivation according to published statistics.

You will find the South-West featured upon that map on both counts, as will many other areas be so.

 

[talltim]

How can I be a troll with more than 3,500 posts? hock:

You could be a prolific troll

 

[WestCoast]

I think others have stated some very sensible points, the South East and South West economic divide being a crucial point here. Although, I am curious about people who call "everywhere north of Bristol, 'the North'. I could call everwhere south of Cheshire the south, but I don't and make a distinction for the Midlands. I just can't imagine calling Birmingham a southern city!!

 

[Darandio]

You could be a prolific troll

 

[GearJammer]

I think others have stated some very sensible points, the South East and South West economic divide being a crucial point here. Although, I am curious about people who call "everywhere north of Bristol, 'the North'. I could call everwhere south of Cheshire the south, but I don't and make a distinction for the Midlands. I just can't imagine calling Birmingham a southern city!!

Well i live right on the southcoast so to me everything is 'up north' lol. The only thing down south is the Isle of Wight

Traveling far and wide as i do i have to say everywhere has its good points and bad points but generally the further away you go from London and the southeast the nicer the people are, i especially like Cornwall, Wales, Birmingham and Liverpool and anywhere 'up north', i also find the standards of driving better to.

Totally agree with what one poster said about feeling like a stranger in London tho, im getting unloaded in Barking as i type this and don't think since i got here i seen a white man, not trying to sound racist but there are areas of London that do make ya wonder what country im in.

 

[passmore]

Well i live right on the southcoast so to me everything is 'up north' lol. The only thing down south is the Isle of Wight

Traveling far and wide as i do i have to say everywhere has its good points and bad points but generally the further away you go from London and the southeast the nicer the people are, i especially like Cornwall, Wales, Birmingham and Liverpool and anywhere 'up north', i also find the standards of driving better to.

Totally agree with what one poster said about feeling like a stranger in London tho, im getting unloaded in Barking as i type this and don't think since i got here i seen a white man, not trying to sound racist but there are areas of London that do make ya wonder what country im in.

I would agree, again not intending to be racist. There are areas of MK which make you wonder whether you're in Poland or India.
I don't think there's one great North/South divide, economically or otherwise. There are areas of MK which are poor juxtaposed with areas of prosperity. Anyone on here who's local would know the Lakes Estate, a sprawling conurbation designed as part of the London overflow back in the seventies. That has streets which are quite deprived, but further down the road, you have streets where quite wealthy families live. That, in itself, represents a 'divide' and I've always believed that any North/South divide is relative and is down to an individual's perception of two different towns or cities.

 

[snail]

One word for the OP. Rubbish.

 

[starrymarkb]

I think others have stated some very sensible points, the South East and South West economic divide being a crucial point here. Although, I am curious about people who call "everywhere north of Bristol, 'the North'. I could call everwhere south of Cheshire the south, but I don't and make a distinction for the Midlands. I just can't imagine calling Birmingham a southern city!!

It is relative distance. An interesting fact I found out is that Tewkesbury (the northernmost part of the official SW Region) is closer to the Scottish Border then it is to Lands End.

As a comparison how far north could you get in a 90 minute drive from the M25 - from Exeter 90 mins will get you to Bristol. From Plymouth you might make Taunton. 90 minutes up the A1 would get you to Grantham (deep in the East Midlands) - Of course this is a matter of Perception rather then Reality - the further North/South you live will vary where you perceive to the be North, South or just a very long way!

 

[snail]

Of course this is a matter of Perception rather then Reality - the further North/South you live will vary where you perceive to the be North, South or just a very long way!

I read somewhere that if you tried to balance Great Britain on its centre of gravity the balance point is somewhere near Lancaster.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Don't get me going on my favourite "hobby-horse" of national TV weather forecasters, who, having given out bad weather for anywhere north of "The Home Counties" (another annoying term), turn to the camera and smugly say...."and here in theSouth-East"..................

 

[table38]

When I worked in Leeds for a London-based company, anything outside the M25 was "up north"

I was regulaly sent to Luton because that was "up north", and even to Portsmouth a few times!

My boss was aghast when I told him I'd have to stay overnight for a 9am meeting in Grangemouth, as he thought that was "just up the road" from Manchester

 

[Buttsy]

The grim north starts at the Banbury Road roundabout in Oxford

As a confirmed south midlander (Oxford), I tend to head north for holidays as it has wonderful scenery, is ideal for walking and you can always fall into a conversation in a pub without difficulty. Beer's cheap and great too.

I dislike the fact that TV news has a 'northern' correspondent - they don't have one for the south. Also, when Doncaster flooded a few years back, little on the news, when Tewkesbury when under, a flood(!) of reports on it.

It does appear that Britain is made up of 4 nations (Walse, Scotland, North & South England) rather than 3 (I generalise heavily on this point).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Another "so called" tradition that I strongly disagree with is the "barmy" expectation that "Northerners" are supposed to go "up to London". You would never say that you are going up to Paris, if you live in Manchester, but you would say that you are going up to Edinburgh. Perhaps they have a different compass system in the more southern half of England.

Yes, I know that we have already argued this out on the threads in the past, but you will never convince me that the saying "up to London" is right.

 

[table38]

Over in the "Current Trainspotters reputation" thread, I did the AQ test and scored a rather low "9" which then made me worry that maybe that was too low... so I did a bit of googling and came across the following, which to me (sweeping stereotypes and generalisations aside) pretty much sums up why I wasn't happy living down south

Despite any and all the criticisms of the theory, many people continue to use the terms "Type A" and "Type B" purely to describe personalities, though some still equate the Type A personality with medical disorders like coronary heart disease.

Type A

The theory describes a Type A individual as ambitious, aggressive, business-like, controlling, highly competitive, impatient, preoccupied with his or her status, time-conscious, and tightly-wound. People with Type A personalities are often high-achieving "workaholics" who multi-task, push themselves with deadlines, and hate both delays and ambivalence.

In his 1996 book, Type A Behavior: Its Diagnosis and Treatment, Friedman suggests that Type A behavior is expressed in three major symptoms: free-floating hostility, which can be triggered by even minor incidents; time urgency and impatience, which causes irritation and exasperation; and a competitive drive, which causes stress and an achievement-driven mentality. The first of these symptoms is believed to be covert and therefore less observable, while the other two are more overt.

Type B

The theory describes Type B individuals as perfect contrast to those with Type A personalities. People with Type B personalities are generally patient, relaxed, easy-going, and at times lacking an overriding sense of urgency.

Because of these characteristics, Type B individuals are often described as apathetic and disengaged by individuals with Type A or other personality types

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting for a minute that everyone down south is Type A, or everyone up north is Type B, it just seemed to sum things up for me and perhaps explain why I was glad to get away from the rat race. This is only the way I saw things, if I've upset anyone then it was unintentional. If you've been affected by any of the issues in this post, then please call the Radio 4 Helpline on 0800 044...

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, I know that we have already argued this out on the threads in the past, but you will never convince me that the saying "up to London" is right.

Why on earth would you say "up to London" if you're heading south? People in the North and Midlands seem to say "down to London", which is more appropriate.

Or are we talking about "up and down lines", which I don't understand!

 

[table38]

Maybe it's because most of us first encounter a map when its hanging on a wall (eg. at school or wherever) which definitely has an "up" and a "down"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Over in the "Current Trainspotters reputation" thread, I did the AQ test and scored a rather low "9" which then made me worry that maybe that was too low

Don't you worry about it one bit. I scored "8" and all this proves is that there are many successful go-getting people in the more "northern" regions of England. When under pressure to conform to set expectations (usually set by those in the South), always remember the translation of my forum signature....and you won't go wrong.

 

[Buttsy]

Don't you worry about it one bit. I scored "8" and all this proves is that there are many successful go-getting people in the more "northern" regions of England. When under pressure to conform to set expectations (usually set by those in the South), always remember the translation of my forum signature....and you won't go wrong.

To be really picky (and it is 30 years since I did latin), but I'm not sure that you have the grammar and structure of that phrase quite right...

 

[table38]

The only Latin I know is "Quantam ille canis est in fenestra" which I think came from a Molesworth book (as any fule kno)

 

[Schnellzug]

Another "so called" tradition that I strongly disagree with is the "barmy" expectation that "Northerners" are supposed to go "up to London". You would never say that you are going up to Paris, if you live in Manchester, but you would say that you are going up to Edinburgh. Perhaps they have a different compass system in the more southern half of England.

Yes, I know that we have already argued this out on the threads in the past, but you will never convince me that the saying "up to London" is right.

You can probably blame Brunel, as so often. he probably coined the idea of the up train going to London. Now if he'd chosen Bristol, though, don't you think the centre of gravity might have been radically different? There's something to conjure with.

And that's a curious phrase as well isn't it, but this isn''t about the derivation of familiar English phrases or sayings. Though there are plenty of those, of course, Oop North.

 

[WestCoast]

Maybe it's because most of us first encounter a map when its hanging on a wall (eg. at school or wherever) which definitely has an "up" and a "down"

An interesting theory, those that were educated north of London are perhaps more inclined to reject "up to London". I think people would laugh 'oop north' if you said "up to London". Also, if you said it in Scotland!

 

[Greenback]

I don' think it is at all grim 'up north', but then again, I haven;t lived there, only experienced the areas as a visitor.

I think it is true to say that of the places where I have lived, none are perfect. On certain days when I lived in Reading I would have given anything to be in North Wales, on other days I was glad of the facilities and opportunities that Reading provided, which were far more than anything I could have had in Gwynedd!

 

[HST Power]

Or are we talking about "up and down lines", which I don't understand!

Seconded!

If you say 'down fast' is that going towards London, or is that 'up fast?'

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Has the OP even experienced my part of town? Lewisham in South East London? You think the North is bad? right...

Someone said about cockney accents making people sound thick? I've got a South London accent you cheeky *******!

 

[WestCoast]

Has the OP even experienced my part of town? Lewisham in South East London? You think the North is bad? right.

This is my point entirely! There are good and bad areas everywhere, you can't overgeneralise.

Saying "north=poor" and "south=rich", is ridiculous.

One strange thing I appreciate about the North West, in particular, is how the depressing areas of East Manchester are so close to luscious hills of the Pennines. I don't know why, but I like how the countryside (sort of) merges into the city.

I think saying that the North has 'stupid accents' is also rather insulting, likewise to any accent.

 

[HST Power]

Someone said about cockney accents making people sound thick?

I love accents, it give people character. My old RS teacher was born in Yorkshire, lived in London and went to Uni in Scotland. Now that was a major mismash, and everyone would laugh at how one minute she would be talking in a perfectly normal manner, then she'd say somebodies name and randomly sway into a Yorkshire or Scottish tone!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I must confess that there is one part of a rail journey that, as a person from North-West England do not like in my own area, is the section from Guide Bridge to Stalybridge that is taken by the First TPE services. It is the very stereotype that MattE2010 was discussing in the thread opening posting.

The sooner that the Ordsall Chord project comes into fruition and Stalybridge is accessed via the Miles Platting junction route through Ashton under Lyne, the better it will be.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An interesting theory, those that were educated north of London are perhaps more inclined to reject "up to London". I think people would laugh 'oop north' if you said "up to London". Also, if you said it in Scotland!

Another conversion to my cause. I must confess that my age tends to give me more knowledge of some arcane sayings than many of the younger members on the forum.

 

[Class172]

Using the route coverage map I have mad a map of my definition of North, South etc.