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The news agenda seems to focus on ‘mixed messages’ and people saying ‘how come you can’t go to work but you can go out after work’ and the ‘be cautious’ line isn’t clear enough
These people want an exact list of restrictions to be provided with no personal thinking required
Also those on the left often don’t seem to understand what the economy is, by keeping stuff open people say ‘typical Tories, putting money before lives’, they assume shops and hospitality open only benefits fat cat Tory voting bosses.
It's not the moderate/centre left who think this at all; it's the hard left / authoritarian left. There are many people I know who consider themselves to be left leaning but who are absolutely opposed to these authoritarian measures. Sadly we are all effectively politically homeless right now, though the Lib Dems are rejecting some authoritarian measures so are our best hope out of all the major parties.
I see Labour as absolute traitors to the moderate left; they pander to the hard left, but Starmer will never appeal to the hard left no matter how hard he tries; the end result is alienating himself from almost everyone. But there you go!
The news agenda seems to focus on ‘mixed messages’ and people saying ‘how come you can’t go to work but you can go out after work’ and the ‘be cautious’ line isn’t clear enough
These people want an exact list of restrictions to be provided with no personal thinking required
Also those on the left often don’t seem to understand what the economy is, by keeping stuff open people say ‘typical Tories, putting money before lives’, they assume shops and hospitality open only benefits fat cat Tory voting bosses.
Indeed. In many ways, I think the "you have to decide what risk you're prepared to take" line the government/Chris Whitty are taking is the most grown up one we've had for decades. People say they want to be treated like adults - this is it.
I do think the government needs to assist the hospitality industry though.
People complain about "mixed messages". Tough. Life is complicated.
I don't think one can judge whether the majority of people support or oppose more restrictions based on seeing busy city centres. You don't see the people who aren't out.
Conversely I would suspect that the people who answer surveys tend to be those who go out less.
I don't think one can judge whether the majority of people support or oppose more restrictions based on seeing busy city centres. You don't see the people who aren't out.
But if the majority were no longer going out, you'd really notice the difference.
Also as said upthread, a significant proportion of those not currently going out could be doing so not through any desire for restrictions or any fear of the virus but purely due to a fear of being isolated at Christmas
Indeed. In many ways, I think the "you have to decide what risk you're prepared to take" line the government/Chris Whitty are taking is the most grown up one we've had for decades. People say they want to be treated like adults - this is it.
I do think the government needs to assist the hospitality industry though.
People complain about "mixed messages". Tough. Life is complicated.
Yes if we didn't have the whole Peppa Pig Show going on in the background, and provided the public are furnished with data to inform their decisions, it would be fine.
The problem is this whole "alas, will he or won't he?" and "behave yourselves or you get punished" which Johnson just can't seem to resist.
It doesn't help when there's madam up there using words like "tsunami", and Drakeford carrying on as though the world is 45 minutes from ending.
It's also worth adding that, whilst we dwell a lot on stuff like hospitality or mixing restrictions, there's another set of restrictions which most have been fortunate enough not to be affected by - stuff like restrictions on funeral numbers. It is this sort of stuff which has stoked the most anger directed at Partygate. There's people who have had to be excluded from funerals, excluded from hospital visits, or excluded from seeing their loved ones after death. We shouldn't forget all this -- it isn't just "I can't go to the restaurant tonight".
As ever with these things I'll invoke the old home spun philosophy that no doubt your grandmother always used to say - "actions speak louder than words"
Yes if we didn't have the whole Peppa Pig Show going on in the background, and provided the public are furnished with data to inform their decisions, it would be fine.
The problem is this whole "alas, will he or won't he?" and "behave yourselves or you get punished" which Johnson just can't seem to resist.
It doesn't help when there's madam up there using words like "tsunami", and Drakeford carrying on as though the world is 45 minutes from ending.
As ever with these things I'll invoke the old home spun philosophy that no doubt your grandmother always used to say - "actions speak louder than words"
Who do you talk to, and where? I talk to people at work, in pubs/restaurants, at sports events and the vast majority who give a view are unanimously against restrictions.
Pubs, restaurants and sports events? - all areas which are hit hard by lockdown restriction so not surprising they're more likely to be opposed.
Opinions of my work colleagues, friends and family range from those who want stricter restriction than are in place now to those who would scrap some restrictions but keep others in place. I personally only know one person who wants to completely scrap ALL restrictions, a view regularly expressed here.
In terms of the wider public, I'm a member or regular lurker of numerous forums and Facebook groups, both left and right leaning, none of them have such a strong anti-mask/anti-restriction majority as this one. Other posters have made this same point in previous threads.
YouGov polls are notoriously unreliable for these sorts of things and are generally done by the sort of people who have a lot of time on their hands and work from home; see previous posts on the subject.
Unreliable to a point, but as mentioned earlier they're consistently not merely a majority, but a huge majority in favour, and pollsters do take into account the demographics of the respondents and weight the results accordingly.
What do you suggest is a better barometer of public opinion on the subject?
But they also try to take into account the fact that people lie. So eg. for 'how are you going to vote' polls they also ask 'how did you vote last time?' and then compare how that population say they voted last time with what actually happened, and massage the results as best they can to take that into account. And even then they are often quite far out from what actually happens. For a while this was called the 'shy Tory' effect.
They can't do that with Covid because there is no such 'baseline' data.
Opinions of my work colleagues, friends and family range from those who want stricter restriction than are in place now to those who would scrap some restrictions but keep others in place. I personally only know one person who wants to completely scrap ALL restrictions, a view regularly expressed here.
Do you actually go into work or work from home? What sort of job do you do? You may not want to answer these questions of course but if you are telling me most people at your work want restrictions, I'd certainly like to know more about those people.
In terms of the wider public, I'm a member or regular lurker of numerous forums and Facebook groups, both left and right leaning, none of them have such a strong anti-mask/anti-restriction majority as this one. Other posters have made this same point in previous threads.
People here aren't mugs and are many capable of doing good quality research. When you say "anti mask" you presumably mean against mask mandates; you will find many people here will be able to give a very informed and accurate opinion on the efficacy of effective FFP2/3 masks vs the standard masks that are generally worn for box ticking purposes to comply with mask mandates.
Of course it makes sense for those who favour authoritarian measures to refer to such well informed people as "anti maskers" because they do not want the focus to be on the true effectiveness of different types of masks, as that will undermine their argument.
Unreliable to a point, but as mentioned earlier they're consistently not merely a majority, but a huge majority in favour, and pollsters do take into account the demographics of the respondents and weight the results accordingly.
YouGov polls do not in any way take into account the demographics of society; the idea that the average working person has the time, inclination or desire to waste their time on YouGov polls is fanciful.
There is no truly representative barometer but those of us who talk to a wide range of people and do not work from home (or if we do work from home we will get out and about a lot) will have a much better understanding than those who don't get out that much.
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Exactly but the pro-restriction lobbyists will NOT accept such evidence and will insist the stay at home types who waste their time on YouGov are in (or representative of) the majority; they will never accept they are wrong no matter how many of us post clear evidence
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As ever with these things I'll invoke the old home spun philosophy that no doubt your grandmother always used to say - "actions speak louder than words"
Indeed and the pro-restriction lobbyists are very keen for other people to be restricted but their own movements are often not so constricted. People like Ferguson, one of the main architects of lockdowns, are good examples of that. Mask mandates are the same; the vast majority do not want them and will not wear one unless they feel forced to, however those who demand mask mandates always try to falsely claim the majority do want such mandates, even though they admit that most people do not want to wear them. The reality is the mandates is all about box ticking, and making other people do something that ticks a box.
None of this makes any logical sense whatsoever.
And of course those who are keen for lockdowns or other restrictions will deny that vaccines are the path to normality; they give excuses like "but the vaccines are not 100% effective" or "vaccines don't stop you getting it"; they cannot see how absurd their argument is, because they far too deep down the rabbit hole and part of a toxic cult.
Exactly but the pro-restriction lobbyists will NOT accept such evidence and will insist the stay at home types who waste their time on YouGov are in (or representative of) the majority; they will never accept they are wrong no matter how many of us post clear evidence
Questionnaires / polls can be so skewed even in quite reasonable questioning as they do not cover all bases or the respondent's peculiarities.
I get regular YouGov polls send to me and a question in the last few days tied in with Covid was something along the lines of will you be going to a pub this Christmas?
Well I answered no - because I do not go to pubs when at home.
Has absolutely nothing to do with Covid, but could be misconstrued as me deciding not to go to the pub because of the prevailing situation.
Last time I was in a normal pub in Liverpool must have been around 10 years ago.
A society I am a member of used to hold meetings in a pub function room before transferring to a social club setting - that is closest I have been to a local pub setting.
Whilst I don't go into pubs in my home town in the past couple of months I have been into pubs / hotels in Penzance, Two Bridges (Princetown), Tintern, Newcastle and York.
For me a pub is somewhere I associate with a holiday or day out.
When at home its a beer / wine or whisky whilst watching TV.
Has absolutely nothing to do with Covid but I guess my actions could be interpreted as being related.
My observations of London today actually demonstrate both sides. It was much busier than this time last year (when it was announced that London was going into tier 3 but was still in tier 2). Seemed to have the hustle and bustle. But then compared to 2 years ago very quiet.
I seem to recall there was a YouGov poll not so long ago suggesting around 20% of the population favoured a permanent night-time curfew irrespective of COVID19. It's not a view I've ever heard anyone express in the real world, and I can imagine the only type of people in favour are those who spend all their time at home i.e. the stereotypical responder to YouGov polls.
I also seem to recall all the polls in 2015 and 2019 were suggesting the election would be far tighter than it was - the only accurate poll was the exit poll. This is known as the shy Tory syndrome i.e. people don't admit the way they intend to vote.
In other words, I wouldn't rely too closely on polls. There isn't a precise way of determining the general public, but comparing footfall in shops, pubs, public transport etc. compared to 2019 is probably about as close as you'll get.
I suspect a lot of people are in favour of restrictions for other people - the school of 'I went to the pub but it was too crowded so we went home' / 'Our day out from Dunstable to Lulworth Cove was ruined by all the day-trippers there' - people with no sense of irony. Much in the same way that a lot of motorists are in favour of (at least some) speed limits, but feel that they are good enough drivers they can interpret when it's safe to drive at 50mph in a 30mph zone due to their excellent (in their opinion) reactions.
Yes there are people cancelling social events right now but this is a minority of people (yes a sizeable one and enough to cause problems for businesses) and many of those are actually doing so not because of a fear of the virus but actually because of a fear of having to isolate over the time when they are hoping to see family members within the coming 10 days.
I think this is absolutely spot on. I was thinking to go and see my Auntie Vera, 83, not seen for two years in Manchester next week, and I might say, hey Vera I’ll take a LFT before I set off even though I feel fine. If I get a positive, although asymptomatic, that’s the next ten days buggered up - and I haven’t got a proper family. What must it be like for those who have plans for a close family reunion?
Incidentally, I haven’t asked Vera’s views on this, though I will soon. I suspect it will be ‘don’t do that, I might be dead next year, come anyway’.
Edit: ‘you can’t come Thursday morning, that’s my Keep Fit class, and me and my church group are going to the pub on Friday’. Oh. So Thursday afternoon it is.
Absolutely, the lockdown lobby are quite entitled to shield at any point. Meanwhile, the rest of us can safely go about our business as normal while avoiding close-contact with strangers and washing our hands.
My view is whatever the public say about supporting restrictions, on the street many of them don't seem to follow them unless they're mandated. IIRC polls were suggesting 70-80% support for masks recently, but for months the amount of mask wearing while not a mandate was clearly lower than that.
Some contributors to this thread would do well to remember that public opinion is very much not line with their views on Covid restrictions. The public wants more of them not less, and I think most people would rather trust a scientist than some of the Tory nutjobs who opposed restrictions in the votes this week. The LibDems also, rather suprisingly, also oppose them, although Vince Cable seems to support Covid passes.
If you genuinely believe the majority are in favour of tougher/more covid rules, I implore you to please read the comments section of any Facebook news article on COVID at the moment. Almost every comment is discussing how this has went on for far too long, how the UK is grossly overreacting to Omicron, and how we need to learn to move on and live with this virus without the imposition of NPI’s.
Really? That’s quite a bold claim to make, from work colleagues to being outdoors to social media, the tide has very much turned against more restrictions of any kind
Really? That’s quite a bold claim to make, from work colleagues to being outdoors to social media, the tide has very much turned against more restrictions of any kind
While previous yougov polls have shown significant support for restrictions, it is very interesting that the latest poll done for the Times has significant opposition to all the restrictions mentioned. The survey work is very recent so accounts for omicron hysteria.
Were the questions asked differently? Different weighting of respondents? Or has public opinion fundamentally shifted?
If you genuinely believe the majority are in favour of tougher/more covid rules, I implore you to please read the comments section of any Facebook news article on COVID at the moment. Almost every comment is discussing how this has went on for far too long, how the UK is grossly overreacting to Omicron, and how we need to learn to move on and live with this virus without the imposition of NPI’s.
Is this in response to the original post or mine? I don't believe the majority are in favour, I agree we can't keep going into restrictions, lockdown etc every few months it isn't sustainable.
It's not the moderate/centre left who think this at all; it's the hard left / authoritarian left. There are many people I know who consider themselves to be left leaning but who are absolutely opposed to these authoritarian measures. Sadly we are all effectively politically homeless right now, though the Lib Dems are rejecting some authoritarian measures so are our best hope out of all the major parties.
I see Labour as absolute traitors to the moderate left; they pander to the hard left, but Starmer will never appeal to the hard left no matter how hard he tries; the end result is alienating himself from almost everyone. But there you go!
Yes, the hard left are the ones most in favour of restrictions.
No, Labour is not pandering to them in any way. Labour is now obviously under moderate leadership who have no interest in pandering to the hard left at all. Check out any hard left group online and you'll find it full of people talking about how much Starmer has betrayed them.
While previous yougov polls have shown significant support for restrictions, it is very interesting that the latest poll done for the Times has significant opposition to all the restrictions mentioned. The survey work is very recent so accounts for omicron hysteria.
Were the questions asked differently? Different weighting of respondents? Or has public opinion fundamentally shifted?
I am very surprised by the Times chart there is definitely an anti-restriction majority - but why do people appear less against a New Year's Eve celebration ban?
Most peculiar really.
To me Christmas means Christmas Eve to New Years Day and to some it means right up to Twelfth Night.
I am very surprised by the Times chart there is definitely an anti-restriction majority - but why do people appear less against a New Year's Eve celebration ban?
Most peculiar really.
To me Christmas means Christmas Eve to New Years Day and to some it means right up to Twelfth Night.
I pretty much gave up on NYE at the millennium. Even before that it was rarely in the top 10 nights out of the year for me. I oppose restrictions then as strongly as I do any other day, but in terms of the personal impact on me it would actually be slightly more convenient for things to close. This position may well carry over to less principled people who would support closures as a result
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