There are too many preserved railways in the UK: what can be done to make them more viable?

[daodao]

Moderator note: Split from

Llangollen Railway appoints receivers

The Llangollen Railway has appointed receivers, with debts of about £1/3 million https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56241552 The company which runs a heritage railway in Denbighshire has gone into receivership. Llangollen Railway PLC said it could not "legally continue to trade", with the...

www.railforums.co.uk

There are too many "preserved" lines in England and Wales, and only a limited number of people interested in railway preservation.

It is inevitable that some will go to the wall, particularly if their financial situation (for whatever reason) was precarious pre-Covid.

As they generally don't provide a useful transport function, it would be wrong for government funds to be used to help bail them out. They should not be allowed to escape from their financial responsibilities by this operating company/charity trust split; moveable assets (locomotives and rolling stock) could easily be sold to other preserved railways to raise funds.

Providing the track is maintained and not ripped up, another company could re-open the line with cheaper operating practices, e.g. using a Paytrain-style 1st/2nd generation dmu operation.

If there is just "one engine in steam" (a slight misnomer for dmus), signalling would not be needed and signal boxes could be locked "out of use".

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

The prices of rolling stock might be quite low, there is plenty of supply, even surplus maybe

If lines close, they would make perfect cycleways, few problems with bridges

 

[simonw]

There are too many "preserved" lines in England and Wales, and only a limited number of people interested in railway preservation. It is inevitable that some will go to the wall, particularly if their financial situation (for whatever reason) was precarious pre-Covid. As they generally don't provide a useful transport function, it would be wrong for government funds to be used to help bail them out. They should not be allowed to escape from their financial responsibilities by this operating company/charity trust split; moveable assets (locomotives and rolling stock) could easily be sold to other preserved railways to raise funds. Providing the track is maintained and not ripped up, another company could re-open the line with cheaper operating practices, e.g. using a Paytrain-style 1st/2nd generation dmu operation.

I'm not sure there is much of a market for preserved railways running a paytrain operation.

 

[35B]

There are too many "preserved" lines in England and Wales, and only a limited number of people interested in railway preservation. It is inevitable that some will go to the wall, particularly if their financial situation (for whatever reason) was precarious pre-Covid. As they generally don't provide a useful transport function, it would be wrong for government funds to be used to help bail them out. They should not be allowed to escape from their financial responsibilities by this operating company/charity trust split; moveable assets (locomotives and rolling stock) could easily be sold to other preserved railways to raise funds. Providing the track is maintained and not ripped up, another company could re-open the line with cheaper operating practices, e.g. using a Paytrain-style 1st/2nd generation dmu operation. If there is just "one engine in steam" (a slight misnomer for dmus), signalling would not be needed and signal boxes could be locked "out of use".

You beg so many questions. Firstly, the "lower cost operations" - just about all preserved railways I know of rely on volunteers to operate, with limited paid staff. What savings would they actually make from a "one engine in steam" operating model, and could it support the traffic on demand?

There is then the question of selling assets. Much of the stock won't belong to the PLC, and won't be available to sell. That will have two effects; firstly, to limit the amount that can be recovered through the receivership, and second to protect many of the assets that allow the railway to operate.

You raise the question of a government bail-out. There are a variety of arguments for government investment in preserved railways which go beyond their public transport function. I've no idea what may or may not be possible here, and what the detailed arguments are. But I'd not reject it out of hand as a possibility if the Llangollen Railway is viable once restructured.

Finally, the ethics of the company split. That's a vexed question, but is a legitimate corporate structure, especially given the restrictions on charity trading. It is ultimately the PLC that is in receivership, and the PLC's assets that will be involved - the Trust may or may not help out in some way, depending on the precise circumstances. But bankruptcy (and this is a form of bankruptcy) is always an escape from financial responsibilities, where they become overwhelming and cannot be met.

The prices of rolling stock might be quite low, there is plenty of supply, even surplus maybe

If lines close, they would make perfect cycleways, few problems with bridges

That's a moot point - I've read elsewhere that Mk1s in particular are becoming more expensive as they run out of residual life and start need serious money spending on them for overhaul.

 

[Ianno87]

You raise the question of a government bail-out. There are a variety of arguments for government investment in preserved railways which go beyond their public transport function. I've no idea what may or may not be possible here, and what the detailed arguments are. But I'd not reject it out of hand as a possibility if the Llangollen Railway is viable once restructured.

There is an argument that heritage railways provide a boost to their local economy from encouraging tourism (e.g. spending in pubs, hotels etc. in the area)

 

[yorksrob]

You beg so many questions. Firstly, the "lower cost operations" - just about all preserved railways I know of rely on volunteers to operate, with limited paid staff. What savings would they actually make from a "one engine in steam" operating model, and could it support the traffic on demand?

There is then the question of selling assets. Much of the stock won't belong to the PLC, and won't be available to sell. That will have two effects; firstly, to limit the amount that can be recovered through the receivership, and second to protect many of the assets that allow the railway to operate.

You raise the question of a government bail-out. There are a variety of arguments for government investment in preserved railways which go beyond their public transport function. I've no idea what may or may not be possible here, and what the detailed arguments are. But I'd not reject it out of hand as a possibility if the Llangollen Railway is viable once restructured.

Finally, the ethics of the company split. That's a vexed question, but is a legitimate corporate structure, especially given the restrictions on charity trading. It is ultimately the PLC that is in receivership, and the PLC's assets that will be involved - the Trust may or may not help out in some way, depending on the precise circumstances. But bankruptcy (and this is a form of bankruptcy) is always an escape from financial responsibilities, where they become overwhelming and cannot be met.

That's a moot point - I've read elsewhere that Mk1s in particular are becoming more expensive as they run out of residual life and start need serious money spending on them for overhaul.

I've heard it said that mk 1's are a bit like Trigger's broom. You can more or less replace the bits and pieces as you go along.

Later monocoque designs might be more difficult to upkeep over time.

 

[DB]

You raise the question of a government bail-out. There are a variety of arguments for government investment in preserved railways which go beyond their public transport function. I've no idea what may or may not be possible here, and what the detailed arguments are. But I'd not reject it out of hand as a possibility if the Llangollen Railway is viable once restructured.

They are effectively tourist attractions, so if this were to happen it would probably be as part of a scheme to support the tourist attraction industry in general.

 

[Harold Hill]

And then there's the Q of support and staffing. Difficult to know if there'll be more or fewer volunteers. More - because early retirements and Covid redundancies or Fewer because demographics?

 

[Dai Corner]

They are effectively tourist attractions, so if this were to happen it would probably be as part of a scheme to support the tourist attraction industry in general.

The Llangollen Railway had already had grants from the Welsh Government, as well as the Heritage Lottery Fund, and presumably the UK Government in the form of furlough payments for staff.

 

[TheSeeker]

Not sure if this is a valid comment but from outside the UK it seems like the country as a whole takes nostalgia and preservation much further than other countries. Sometimes things, even quite recent things, especially transport related are preserved or reconstructed that may have been better forgotten.

In another hobby I ride and restore Lambretta scooters. Even in this relatively small field the UK has a rather rose tinted view of the past. Many scooters are over-restored or over decorated in what people think is a period way but they're actually re-creating something that never existed.

Is this a cultural thing specific to the UK? It exists in other countries of course, just not to the same level.

 

[kje7812]

I've heard it said that mk 1's are a bit like Trigger's broom. You can more or less replace the bits and pieces as you go along.

Later monocoque designs might be more difficult to upkeep over time.

That's the opinion of Carriage & Waggon at the line I volunteer. Pre-nationalisation stock is sometimes even easier if no welding is required.

 

[takno]

Moderator note: Split from

Llangollen Railway appoints receivers

The Llangollen Railway has appointed receivers, with debts of about £1/3 million https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56241552 The company which runs a heritage railway in Denbighshire has gone into receivership. Llangollen Railway PLC said it could not "legally continue to trade", with the...

www.railforums.co.uk

There are too many "preserved" lines in England and Wales, and only a limited number of people interested in railway preservation.

It is inevitable that some will go to the wall, particularly if their financial situation (for whatever reason) was precarious pre-Covid.

As they generally don't provide a useful transport function, it would be wrong for government funds to be used to help bail them out. They should not be allowed to escape from their financial responsibilities by this operating company/charity trust split; moveable assets (locomotives and rolling stock) could easily be sold to other preserved railways to raise funds.

Providing the track is maintained and not ripped up, another company could re-open the line with cheaper operating practices, e.g. using a Paytrain-style 1st/2nd generation dmu operation.

If there is just "one engine in steam" (a slight misnomer for dmus), signalling would not be needed and signal boxes could be locked "out of use".

I think the idea that there are "too many preserved lines in England and Wales" falls down on the assumption that preserved lines are a market in themselves, and that the market is nationwide. There may be some local overcapacity in some areas, and it's possible in those areas that the volunteer market isn't large enough to staff them. It isn't the case nationally however.

Very few people are travelling the country specifically to visit preserved lines - more often it's a case of the local preserved line being on the day-out roster for an annual trip, or the preserved line adding another attraction for people holidaying or coach-touring in the local area. In that sense they are in a growing marketplace up against other attractions like museums, which have been publicly-funded in the past and are now going to the wall because that funding has dried up.

Having a separate asset-holding and operational company is pretty common business practice, not some sharp-practice way of avoiding your debts. With large non-portable illiquid assets like this it allows sensible continuity, as is probably a condition of the lottery/public funding.

This is a railway with particularly contract disputes, which was completed in the off-season just before Covid and has effectively never been allowed to trade. How can you possibly take it as an indicator of what's going on in the wider railway?

 

[DB]

Not sure if this is a valid comment but from outside the UK it seems like the country as a whole takes nostalgia and preservation much further than other countries. Sometimes things, even quite recent things, especially transport related are preserved or reconstructed that may have been better forgotten.

In another hobby I ride and restore Lambretta scooters. Even in this relatively small field the UK has a rather rose tinted view of the past. Many scooters are over-restored or over decorated in what people think is a period way but they're actually re-creating something that never existed.

Is this a cultural thing specific to the UK? It exists in other countries of course, just not to the same level.

I don't know whether it's more pronounced in the UK than other countries, but I agree that there is a tendency to idolise the past and to create sanitised reconstructions of it - let's be honest, the pristine 'small station' at a heritage railway, with its sparkling wagons in the siding, cafe and gift shop is really not a recreation of what actually existed

It is of course the same attitude which led many people to support Brexit - i.e. a belief that the past was better.

Of course, when this version of the past is imagined to have existed is more opaque - it seems to be a very rose-tinted amalgam of aspects of every decade from the 1930s to 1970s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If lines close, they would make perfect cycleways, few problems with bridges

One thing that might be nice would be to have "railbikes" on at least one of them, preferably a scenic one.

Fundamentally they're tourist attractions, not transport services. And that would be a unique value proposition for the UK at present.

 

[Mikey C]

My concern is that the preserved railways will increasingly struggle to find volunteers with the necessary skills to maintain such "mechanical" machines

There was a generation of former BR workers who had worked on steam engines and first generation DMUs, or had worked in old fashioned factories full of skilled machinists, but a lot of that work has gone now, whether to other countries or computerised. Even amongst railworkers, is a career maintaining Turbostars or Desiros transferable to helping a steam railway?

How many people "tinker" with cars nowadays in comparison to previous generations who on Sunday would be underneath their MGB or Cortina?

 

[37424]

I think there are too many Preserved Railways really, there is no doubt that the larger major established preserved railways are a major attraction especially in Tourist area's like the NYMR for instance and maybe worthy of government support in some instances but generally I would say not.

Steam does have an appeal to the public, but from an enthusiast viewpoint I'm 59 and too young to remember steam in service, and hey day of the Diesel Loco Hauled is long gone, even though a few remnants like the 37's hung on until recently.

Is there the same level of interest from really the younger generation in trains which are mainly glorified buses and will that translate to the next generation of people that might want to work and support a preserved railway.

Some of the things that appealed to me a rail enthusiast are longer there such as the sounds the old 1st generation diesels made, and the fact you could look out the window which is now far too dangerous for 21st century H&S and I suppose I was interested in some of the more remote branch lines. If had grown up in this era I doubt I would be interested in railways as I find travelling on 158 etc about as interesting as watching paint dry unless its a line I have never been on.

 

[Llandudno]

I wonder if the prevalence of main line steam excursions is hitting the Heritage railway operators.

A mainline experience travelling at 70mph behind a ‘famous’ locomotive in quality carriages, with the option of at seat wining and dining with a couple of hours free time in an historic city or seaside resort seems a more desirable day out for the non hardened rail enthusiasts.

They are very popular for presents and special occasions.

 

[kje7812]

I wonder if the prevalence of main line steam excursions is hitting the Heritage railway operators.

A mainline experience travelling at 70mph behind a ‘famous’ locomotive in quality carriages, with the option of at seat wining and dining with a couple of hours free time in an historic city or seaside resort seems a more desirable day out for the non hardened rail enthusiasts.

They are very popular for presents and special occasions.

The issue there is that cost of railtours is often a lot more than heritage railways. Also some of the days are quite long which is not for everybody. Heritage railways offer more flexibility with respect to start/finish times for passengers.

 

[Llandudno]

The issue there is that cost of railtours is often a lot more than heritage railways. Also some of the days are quite long which is not for everybody. Heritage railways offer more flexibility with respect to start/finish times for passengers.

Agreed they are usually more expensive, but they do add another level of competition to the steam/heritage railway leisure market, and probably appeal to a broader, more upmarket audience.

Numerous TV travel documentaries (many endlessly repeated) showing the Jacobite and dining cars on the Settle-Carlisle etc, afford significant free advertising for these products especially in Staycation summers like this year and probably 2022 as well!

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Most (all?) lines are useful for local travel too. A good win-win solution for the WSR and the Llangollen Railway might be to convert to narrow-gauge with a cycleway alongside. A rationalised narrow-gauge line (diesel railcars off-peak) has much lower running costs than standard gauge. I think it would seem more appropriate than two Bullied Pacifics running backwards at 20 mph with a couple of coaches

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most (all?) lines are useful for local travel too. A good win-win solution for the WSR and the Llangollen Railway might be to convert to narrow-gauge with a cycleway alongside. A rationalised narrow-gauge line (diesel railcars off-peak) has much lower running costs than standard gauge. I think it would seem more appropriate than two Bullied Pacifics running backwards at 20 mph with a couple of coaches

Narrow gauge lines typically don't have a much smaller loading gauge to standard gauge. Certainly not enough to squash a cycleway in.

 

[yorksrob]

I expect that there is only so far the normals will want to travel to take the sprogs on santa specials etc. That alone should enable a good dusting of preserved railways to survive across the country.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Narrow gauge lines typically don't have a much smaller loading gauge to standard gauge. Certainly not enough to squash a cycleway in.

Not trying to start an argument, but doesn't the Bure Valley Railway manage this quite well?

Obviously the 'preservation' aspect of standard gauge stock is rather lost if a line is 'replaced' by a new narrow gauge track with a completely non-authentic, presumably battery-powered in future, 15-inch operation like the Ravenglass & Eskdale.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Those that can be connected to the big railway should, some are useful for visiting other attractions such as the K&ESR which I have used a couple of times to get to Bodium Castle, the only option without a car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those that can be connected to the big railway should, some are useful for visiting other attractions such as the K&ESR which I have used a couple of times to get to Bodium Castle, the only option without a car.

I have used both the Spa Valley and the Wensleydale as public transport, but it is rare for the limited timetables typically operated to be useful for that.

 

[Ianno87]

I have used both the Spa Valley and the Wensleydale as public transport, but it is rare for the limited timetables typically operated to be useful for that.

The East Lancs ran a Bury "shopping service" as part of its Saturday timetable. But such things are the exception rather than the rule.

The ELR is also one that offers a local residents' discount, bringing fares down to a more "useful" level. I'd love to see what take up was like for "normal" journeys.

 

[JRT]

I haven't been on a preserved Railway in this country (England) on my travels (2018-19) despite the opportunity and desire to do so, as they were part of a longer journey.
The reason being the single fare charged was almost as much or the same as the day return or day rover.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Are there really too many? Mr Woodham has a lot to answer for, without so many locomotives things might have been different
Whatabout other countries? Germany for example has numerous lines but mostly with relatively few operating days

Are there really too many?

 

[SynthD]

Turn the route into a mixed use path and turn the railway company into something preserving and presenting the remaining buildings, which can be seen while walking past. A land train might be a better use of space, as it can fit in among cyclists and pushchairs on a decent route like the Parkland Walk in London.

 

[Class360/1]

Moderator note: Split from

Llangollen Railway appoints receivers

The Llangollen Railway has appointed receivers, with debts of about £1/3 million https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56241552 The company which runs a heritage railway in Denbighshire has gone into receivership. Llangollen Railway PLC said it could not "legally continue to trade", with the...

www.railforums.co.uk

There are too many "preserved" lines in England and Wales, and only a limited number of people interested in railway preservation.

It is inevitable that some will go to the wall, particularly if their financial situation (for whatever reason) was precarious pre-Covid.

As they generally don't provide a useful transport function, it would be wrong for government funds to be used to help bail them out. They should not be allowed to escape from their financial responsibilities by this operating company/charity trust split; moveable assets (locomotives and rolling stock) could easily be sold to other preserved railways to raise funds.

Providing the track is maintained and not ripped up, another company could re-open the line with cheaper operating practices, e.g. using a Paytrain-style 1st/2nd generation dmu operation.

If there is just "one engine in steam" (a slight misnomer for dmus), signalling would not be needed and signal boxes could be locked "out of use".

Or the government re open the line for passenger use, and still allow the heritage railway to be run, rumours have it and according to the local mp, that is what they are planning to do with the isle of eight steam railway