Those SR double-decker units (Bulleids?)

[Busaholic]

Busaholic and John Webb - (and I’m so sorry about this question) What kind of deodorant would the average commuter wear in the late 1960s?

In the case of the male of the species, absolutely none, unless they'd succumbed to 'Enry Cooper's TV advertising for Brut! Women, I don't honestly know, but, for the older ones, probably talcum powder.

 

[yorksrob]

would like to now they load unload times for PEP derived stock, as sure they would be very close to EPB and SUB times. When i commuted to liverpool st the 315's could disgorge an amazing amount of passengers and depart in under a minute. the 305,s ect could dislodge as many but station staff were left to close doors so probably slower overall

The PEP's might have had comparable loading times, but from the layout there look to be fewer seats and fewer luggage racks for standees to hold on to.

 

[Cowley]

In the case of the male of the species, absolutely none, unless they'd succumbed to 'Enry Cooper's TV advertising for Brut! Women, I don't honestly know, but, for the older ones, probably talcum powder.

 

[Bedpan]

In the case of the male of the species, absolutely none, unless they'd succumbed to 'Enry Cooper's TV advertising for Brut! Women, I don't honestly know, but, for the older ones, probably talcum powder.

I recall Old Spice (or was that just after shave) and Right Guard. Sticks were the norm for deodorants, or was it just that my Mum bought them for me because they were cheaper.

 

[Typhoon]

Apologies for going slightly of topic and I realise we're speaking a good number of years ago, but do you have any recollections of the travelling experience on these units Busaholic?

I went on a school trip to the Cutty Sark on one, about 1960 (Junior school). I can't remember how the staff were arranged but it did mean that each teacher could supervise more pupils (no through carriages of course). Naturally, we all wanted to go upstairs; quite cramped up there, if I remember rightly - although headroom no problem with 10-11 year olds. Probably quite noisy downstairs!
Only saw them occasionally on what was then called the 'North Kent' line to Dartford.

 

[Taunton]

I seem to recall that by the later 1960s they were confined to a Cannon Street-Plumstead short peak hour working, getting them off the main lines as soon as possible because of dwell time impact on following services. They were stabled in the day on the sidings at Plumstead.

 

[LUYMun]

I don't want to go off-topic,

but apparently there were model kits created by the Engine Works of Canterbury, producing about 50 or 75 models. Rumour has it there's 20 of them left. The quality of them are quite bad, but valuable. There's one known example of this model, which can be seen from Thornbury, owned by the Burgess Hill Model Railway Club.



There's a YouTube video (below) looking on this layout, but doesn't show the model 4DD.

I normally wonder does anyone know of any clubs/people who own a 4DD?

 

[Ash Bridge]

I went on a school trip to the Cutty Sark on one, about 1960 (Junior school). I can't remember how the staff were arranged but it did mean that each teacher could supervise more pupils (no through carriages of course). Naturally, we all wanted to go upstairs; quite cramped up there, if I remember rightly - although headroom no problem with 10-11 year olds. Probably quite noisy downstairs!
Only saw them occasionally on what was then called the 'North Kent' line to Dartford.

With a capacity of well over 100 per car, if full I could imagine the racket from all those excited kids must have been absolutely overwhelming! Thanks for replying

 

[Typhoon]

With a capacity of well over 100 per car, if full I could imagine the racket from all those excited kids must have been absolutely overwhelming! Thanks for replying

To be honest I was thinking more of children's feet (and shoes) in contact with the vertical panel below the seat. At that age I don't think that our feet would have touched the floor in many cases. The natural inclination would be to swing our feet back and forth which hit the vertical panel beneath the seat which corresponded to the wall above the seat on the lower floor. It is difficult to remember approaching sixty years ago but I am under the impression that it was this that created the noise. I don't think we would have been over vocal - the memory of one member of staff fills my sister with dread even now and she's a pensioner. I can't remember whether it was one or two classes so about 70 children at most. Wouldn't have been many more as we were marched to the station.

 

[Busaholic]

To be honest I was thinking more of children's feet (and shoes) in contact with the vertical panel below the seat. At that age I don't think that our feet would have touched the floor in many cases. The natural inclination would be to swing our feet back and forth which hit the vertical panel beneath the seat which corresponded to the wall above the seat on the lower floor. It is difficult to remember approaching sixty years ago but I am under the impression that it was this that created the noise. I don't think we would have been over vocal - the memory of one member of staff fills my sister with dread even now and she's a pensioner. I can't remember whether it was one or two classes so about 70 children at most. Wouldn't have been many more as we were marched to the station.

We were 50 per class at my primary school; in fact, owing to the 'baby bulge' I couldn't get in to the school until after my sixth birthday. Admittance was on an alphabetic basis and my surname began with a 'W'.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

One is undergoing active restoration, though - by my reckoning it has to be one of the most historically-significant rail vehicles in the country, so I hope it has a secure future and gets displayed somewhere eventually. I'd love to see it.[/QUOTE]

I’d tend to think that a dead end isn’t significant, but a working 4EPB would be worth saving as some people in Kent might well have spent their entire working life commuting on them and they were used on the South Western and Central Divisions.

 

[yorksrob]

One is undergoing active restoration, though - by my reckoning it has to be one of the most historically-significant rail vehicles in the country, so I hope it has a secure future and gets displayed somewhere eventually. I'd love to see it.

I’d tend to think that a dead end isn’t significant, but a working 4EPB would be worth saving as some people in Kent might well have spent their entire working life commuting on them and they were used on the South Western and Central Divisions.

I'd assumed that EPB 5001 was going to be saved, however it went for scrap in around 2001, which came as a bitter shock.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Quite. We preserve lots of kettles, which bring in the money, though aren’t cheap to run, but very little of what the everyday commuter used.

 

[Busaholic]

One is undergoing active restoration, though - by my reckoning it has to be one of the most historically-significant rail vehicles in the country, so I hope it has a secure future and gets displayed somewhere eventually. I'd love to see it.

I’d tend to think that a dead end isn’t significant, but a working 4EPB would be worth saving as some people in Kent might well have spent their entire working life commuting on them and they were used on the South Western and Central Divisions.[/QUOTE]
My father commuted on the Bexleyheath Line for twenty years plus, and always mentioned it when he'd been on the Bulleid, and it didn't happen that often, unless I've forgotten a lot. I don't think there were any specific workings they were allocated to, except possibly towards the end. But, as you say, they were part of commuting life, if only occasionally, for many, and for many years.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

Quite. We preserve lots of kettles, which bring in the money, though aren’t cheap to run, but very little of what the everyday commuter used.

Tell that to the vocal 'Pacers are crap' element on this forum.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Yet a history museum, nationally funded, should reflect the national rail picture. Private Heritage railways can do whatever they want and haul a load of old Mk 1s around at 25mph.

 

[Bevan Price]

Quite. We preserve lots of kettles, which bring in the money, though aren’t cheap to run, but very little of what the everyday commuter used.

Lack of space on heritage lines is a problem. A 4 coach emu has no practical use there, since no heritage railways are electrified (or ever likely to be, due to high costs), and requires the same space as 4 loco hauled coaches which can be used in passenger service - thereby making a financial contribution to their upkeep.

Yes - I know you can tow an emu with a loco, but it does not look realistic. Trying to preserve a full length 390 Pendolino (when their time comes) would be even less practicable.
Unless some mega-rich emu enthusiast has loads of ££££££££ to spare, preserving emus is always likely to be a problem.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I agree that an EMU won’t be useful on a heritage line and accept, that they have other priorities. But a national railway museum?

 

[Cowley]

I agree that an EMU won’t be useful on a heritage line and accept, that they have other priorities. But a national railway museum?

I suppose as Bevan says it comes down to space.
Do you just preserve a driving car? Or do you give four coaches worth of space up for a whole unit?
There’s no chance that one of every type of unit used in this country will end up being preserved. I think it’s probably down to what’s the most important, or what the general public will find the most interesting when it comes to the NRM.
Also there’s no point setting something aside for preservation if it’s just going to sit outside rotting for decades.
I think generally the balance is about right.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that an EMU won’t be useful on a heritage line and accept, that they have other priorities. But a national railway museum?

Not quite an EPB, but Locomotion are restoring a HAP unit - the first carriage has been completed:

https://www.facebook.com/Locomotion...1546379625./10156647251201136/?type=3&theater

 

[Bevan Price]

In the case of the male of the species, absolutely none, unless they'd succumbed to 'Enry Cooper's TV advertising for Brut! Women, I don't honestly know, but, for the older ones, probably talcum powder.

My late mother sometimes used "eau de cologne" - a mixture of oils derived from types of citrus fruit and other plants such as lavender, thyme, etc. According to Wikipedia, the original version was very expensive, but cheap generic clones became available. Some non-PC language would be needed to describe common pre-1960s opinions about men who used perfumes in that era.

 

[Taunton]

Do you just preserve a driving car? Or do you give four coaches worth of space up for a whole unit?
There’s no chance that one of every type of unit used in this country will end up being preserved.

The New York Subway Museum has an interesting approach. They have preserved one of each main type of car used over the years, and occasionally get them out as a very mixed train, which in typical US fashion, unlike anything in Britain, is able to run with all the different generations of cars mu'd together.

 

[yorksrob]

The NRM's 2BIL used to run on the network until it was decided that it would need headlights fitted (a small price to my mind if it had meant it could travel in its "natural" environment). It was often paired with the 4SUB which was owned and maintained by BR, however this all went down the pan with the privatisation fiasco.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

The NRM's 2BIL used to run on the network until it was decided that it would need headlights fitted (a small price to my mind if it had meant it could travel in its "natural" environment). It was often paired with the 4SUB which was owned and maintained by BR, however this all went down the pan with the privatisation fiasco.

Sorry yorksrob but you're incorrect and spreading misinformation there.

The BIL was (a) wooden bodied and (b) had screw couplings both at each end and between the two carriages. The 4SUB, while steel bodied, also had screw couplings. These were the reasons that both were withdrawn from use on the national network - it was about updated crash-worthiness standards... nothing to do with either high intensity headlights or privatisation.

I travelled in both units on a couple of railtours and am glad that I got the opportunity.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry yorksrob but you're incorrect and spreading misinformation there.

The BIL was (a) wooden bodied and (b) had screw couplings both at each end and between the two carriages. The 4SUB, while steel bodied, also had screw couplings. These were the reasons that both were withdrawn from use on the national network - it was about updated crash-worthiness standards... nothing to do with either high intensity headlights or privatisation.

I travelled in both units on a couple of railtours and am glad that I got the opportunity.

They had screw couplings, which was why they only ran around coupled to each other, rather than anything else. It didn't stop them running on the network. Also they left the network long before the updated crashworthyness standards led to the reduction of chassis stock - the SUB went to Long Marston in 1995, which was around the time something big happened to the railway network (Can't think what that was !).

 

[Patriot]

I seem to recall that by the later 1960s they were confined to a Cannon Street-Plumstead short peak hour working, getting them off the main lines as soon as possible because of dwell time impact on following services. They were stabled in the day on the sidings at Plumstead.

If my memory serves me right. Back in the early 60's, I used to catch one of these units from Canon Street after work in the 'rush hour'. The service was to Hayes and I would change at Blackheath on to a train to my home which was at Belvedere. Very few passengers and I would always have the upper compartment to myself. Why did I do that? Something completely different!

 

[Busaholic]

If my memory serves me right. Back in the early 60's, I used to catch one of these units from Canon Street after work in the 'rush hour'. The service was to Hayes and I would change at Blackheath on to a train to my home which was at Belvedere. Very few passengers and I would always have the upper compartment to myself. Why did I do that? Something completely different!

With respect, Hayes services didn't go to Blackheath: if you changed at the latter, you'd have presumably been on a Bexleyheath line service, and that route definitely saw regular operation by the Bulleids.

 

[Patriot]

With respect, Hayes services didn't go to Blackheath: if you changed at the latter, you'd have presumably been on a Bexleyheath line service, and that route definitely saw regular operation by the Bulleids.

Well, it was a long time ago! Memories fail with age.

 

[30907]

With respect, Hayes services didn't go to Blackheath: if you changed at the latter, you'd have presumably been on a Bexleyheath line service, and that route definitely saw regular operation by the Bulleids.

And the DDs were only permitted on the Dartford lines anyway. Excluding Blackheath to Charlton at one time IIRC.