Thoughts on Compartments

[Mikey C]

some of my best ever train rides were in full width compartments - going home in the evening, at twilight on a mild summer's day with the windows open wide as the train travelled at 70+mph through London's suburbs

it was even better if one of the light bulbs were not working, as I could see even more clearly though the open windows.

All history - Class 307's no longer exist and the Class 345s have lights so bright that the reflections mean one can barely see out. Oh and they stop at all stations, whereas the 307's generally missed out most stations.

Personally I'd much rather sit in the later refurbished open saloon...

 

[Rick1984]

I love that seat pattern

 

[AM9]

I love that seat pattern

I suppse the Chavs would take home samples if it was a bit lighter.

 

[Journeyman]

Back in the 70’s many trains were made up of a mixture of open and compartments, the compartments were the place most passengers headed for. When it was announced that no 2 nd class compartments were to be constructed in the MK2 builds there was an outcry. Now the customer has been convinced open is best. Marketing can convince many.

It's got nothing to do with marketing. Tastes and perceptions change.

Thinking about safety for a moment, if you’re sitting in an airline seat in an empty carriage and someone sits next to you, meaning harm, there’s nowhere to go.

Perhaps we should get rid of airline seats...

What absolute nonsense. There's almost certainly going to be other people around, which makes it far less likely that you'd come to grief than you would in an isolated compartment.

Interesting how many of the arguments against seem to be along the lines of 'British railway passengers are uniquely awful', isn't it?

Vandalism, especially window scratching and graffiti, seems far worse in mainland Europe, but in the past compartments in the UK often ended up in a much worse state than open saloons, even on the same train. The compartments on the last few Thumpers ended up in a disgusting state, but the saloons were alright.

I'm of the opinion that very, very few people would choose to sit in compartments, or enjoy doing so, if you were to bring them back.

 

[Ianno87]

All history - Class 307's no longer exist and the Class 345s have lights so bright that the reflections mean one can barely see out. Oh and they stop at all stations, whereas the 307's generally missed out most stations.

Would be interesting to compare the all stations journey time on a 345 today with a non-stopping journey time on a 307 of yesteryear...may not be quite the level of difference you expect. Plus the frequency of service at all stations that 345s can achieve.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Thinking about safety for a moment, if you’re sitting in an airline seat in an empty carriage and someone sits next to you, meaning harm, there’s nowhere to go.

Perhaps we should get rid of airline seats...

That's entirely hyperbolic and ridiculous.

Lots of people have good reason to be concerned about being in a compartment on their own. Not least the 50% of the population who are very underrepresented on railway forums...

And yes, it happens in airline seats too and it isn't unusual. You're in a quiet coach and someone decides to sit next to you and completely invade your personal space. In an open coach at least there are other people around. The reason people dislike compartments is because this *would* happen and there would be no-one else around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And yes, it happens in airline seats too and it isn't unusual. You're in a quiet coach and someone decides to sit next to you and completely invade your personal space.

It's not "your personal space", it's an empty seat which anyone is entitled to sit in if they so wish.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

It's not "your personal space", it's an empty seat which anyone is entitled to sit in if they so wish.

I was more referring to people who sit next to you and get uncomfortably and unnecessarily close and/or touch you or push themselves against you. Note people who just sit next to you,

Sexual harassment on trains is a thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was more referring to people who sit next to you and get uncomfortably and unnecessarily close and/or touch you or push themselves against you.

I'm fairly used to that as I take up the full width of a seat and my shoulders overhang a bit. The railway could solve that one if it wanted. But if there are no unoccupied pairs of priority seats available and the nearest one is next to you, I'm sitting there I'm afraid. (I say priority as if I take a regular-legroom seat I have to sit sideways on most units, either taking up two seats or blocking the aisle).

Sexual harassment on trains is a thing.

That should certainly be called out and dealt with, of course. Definitely worse in compartments.

 

[keith1879]

It's not "your personal space", it's an empty seat which anyone is entitled to sit in if they so wish.

If every other seat in the coach is empty then it definitely seems like your personal space. i remember two Moonies (I think) joining me in an old DMU in the 1970s at Bolton. "I'm Daniel"...."I'm Mary"......."We love you". I can't remember anything else they said but the journey to Pendleton Broad Street seemed very long.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If every other seat in the coach is empty then it definitely seems like your personal space. i remember two Moonies (I think) joining me in an old DMU in the 1970s at Bolton. "I'm Daniel"...."I'm Mary"......."We love you". I can't remember anything else they said but the journey to Pendleton Broad Street seemed very long.

Some seats have a particular advantage that means people will want them anyway - table seats, extra legroom, power sockets etc (I'll for example sit in coach A seat 45 on a Pendolino if it is available regardless of who's in 46, the only other row I'll consider is the row directly in front), and as you are officially required to sit in your reserved seat (even if we know that is largely unenforced) you can forgive people for doing so. But if all seats were the same (like say on the Class 397) it would be a bit weird.

 

[Mogz]

That's entirely hyperbolic and ridiculous.

Lots of people have good reason to be concerned about being in a compartment on their own. Not least the 50% of the population who are very underrepresented on railway forums...

And yes, it happens in airline seats too and it isn't unusual. You're in a quiet coach and someone decides to sit next to you and completely invade your personal space. In an open coach at least there are other people around. The reason people dislike compartments is because this *would* happen and there would be no-one else around.

Presumably if compartments were brought back along the lines that most of us who advocate them suggest (ie DB style with a few in first class and a few family compartments in standard), then most of the train would still be open saloons.

Ergo you would be able to avoid them if you don’t want to use them.

If the train was so packed that you were unable to find a saloon seat, then chances are you wouldn’t be alone in the compartment anyway.

It’s about choice. Those who favour compartments being available are not saying that we should abolish open saloon coaches.

 

[bastien]

I'm of the opinion that very, very few people would choose to sit in compartments, or enjoy doing so, if you were to bring them back.

That's why you'd only need very few of them.

 

[duffield]

It's not "your personal space", it's an empty seat which anyone is entitled to sit in if they so wish.

If the coach is nearly empty with a choice of many free seats of all types, *and* it's not their reserved seat, they may be 'entitled' to sit next to you but it is still weird and creepy. This has happened to me, and I immediately moved, smiling and saying totally non-aggressively, 'here, you have these two seats, we'll both be more comfortable with extra room'. I emphasize, I'm talking about an empty or nearly empty coach with loads of seat choices.

To use an analogy, it's like a Gents toilet with 10 urinals, you go to one end, there are 9 free, it's weird and creepy for the next person to use the one right next to you. If (say) at least 2 or 3 urinals are already in use, it's different.

As a coach or toilet gets busier, the 'unwritten rules' change.

 

[keith1879]

Some seats have a particular advantage that means people will want them anyway - table seats, extra legroom, power sockets etc (I'll for example sit in coach A seat 45 on a Pendolino if it is available regardless of who's in 46, the only other row I'll consider is the row directly in front), and as you are officially required to sit in your reserved seat (even if we know that is largely unenforced) you can forgive people for doing so. But if all seats were the same (like say on the Class 397) it would be a bit weird.

Weird doesn't even begin to describe that journey. It wouldn't have mattered where I sat.......they were joining me.

 

[delt1c]

Presumably if compartments were brought back along the lines that most of us who advocate them suggest (ie DB style with a few in first class and a few family compartments in standard), then most of the train would still be open saloons.

Ergo you would be able to avoid them if you don’t want to use them.

If the train was so packed that you were unable to find a saloon seat, then chances are you wouldn’t be alone in the compartment anyway.

It’s about choice. Those who favour compartments being available are not saying that we should abolish open saloon coaches.

Fully agree, unfortunately there are some who are so blinkered in their opinion that they would refuse to agree. A mixture of compartments and open coaches gives everyone their choice. However as our railways are now run for profit first and comfort second the operators will always go for open as it’s cheaper to build and more “ sardines “ can be squeezed in regardless the length of the journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Weird doesn't even begin to describe that journey. It wouldn't have mattered where I sat.......they were joining me.

That is weird. To quote Jasper Carrott...when the nutter gets on the bus, why does the nutter always sit next to you?

FWIW I often reduce the chance of having the seat next to me taken by sitting in a backwards-facing seat - these are less popular.

 

[yorksrob]

I love that seat pattern

It's no Trojan.

 

[Journeyman]

Fully agree, unfortunately there are some who are so blinkered in their opinion that they would refuse to agree. A mixture of compartments and open coaches gives everyone their choice. However as our railways are now run for profit first and comfort second the operators will always go for open as it’s cheaper to build and more “ sardines “ can be squeezed in regardless the length of the journey.

Oh, come on. The idea that railways in the past were havens of opulent luxury compared to today is nonsense.

Look at almost all of the Southern Railway's first generation of suburban EMUs - they were converted from ancient wooden-bodied steam stock and were very austere and gloomy inside. The 2-HAL outer suburban units of 1939 had horrible upright and hard seats in Third Class, the ironing boards of their day, and in an attempt to squeeze more people in, the first all-steel 4-SUB units in the early 1940s had incredibly narrow compartments. If you were of even average height, you'd brush knees with the people opposite.

You fancy going back to that, do you?

 

[Journeyman]

It's no Trojan.

Someone needs to market that stuff. I could fancy a Trojan sofa.

It would, of course, have to come with the dusty smell it always seemed to have in the past.

 

[mpthomson]

Presumably if compartments were brought back along the lines that most of us who advocate them suggest (ie DB style with a few in first class and a few family compartments in standard), then most of the train would still be open saloons.

Ergo you would be able to avoid them if you don’t want to use them.

If the train was so packed that you were unable to find a saloon seat, then chances are you wouldn’t be alone in the compartment anyway.

It’s about choice. Those who favour compartments being available are not saying that we should abolish open saloon coaches.

The point you are missing is that the percentage of rail users advocating their return is vanishingly small and confined to a small number of individuals who post on rail forums.

It's simply not going to happen. It's not about choice at all, it's about the rail system providing the most efficient service possible with the greatest benefit to those who use the services. The 'choice' option for rail enthusiasts shouldn't come into it in any way.

 

[Journeyman]

The point you are missing is that the percentage of rail users advocating their return is vanishingly small and confined to a small number of individuals who post on rail forums.

It's simply not going to happen. It's not about choice at all, it's about the rail system providing the most efficient service possible with the greatest benefit to those who use the services. The 'choice' option for rail enthusiasts shouldn't come into it in any way.

The question here is "are there any people who currently don't use the rail network, who would do so if compartments were brought back?" and the answer to that question is "no".

 

[Bletchleyite]

The question here is "are there any people who currently don't use the rail network, who would do so if compartments were brought back?" and the answer to that question is "no".

Though by contrast I suspect there are people who currently don't use the rail network but would do if there were more bays of 4 with a table. Hence TPE's decision to go with mostly that layout.

 

[Journeyman]

Though by contrast I suspect there are people who currently don't use the rail network but would do if there were more bays of 4 with a table. Hence TPE's decision to go with mostly that layout.

They've gone far too far with it, though, and it's sufficient to put me off using them. I almost always travel solo, and sharing a table with three strangers is not enjoyable at all.

 

[bastien]

The question here is "are there any people who currently don't use the rail network, who would do so if compartments were brought back?" and the answer to that question is "no".

You've asked everyone, have you? Every office worker, every family? In the whole country? Really, all of them?

 

[Journeyman]

You've asked everyone, have you? Every office worker, every family? In the whole country? Really, all of them?

Oh, good grief. How many do you think it is, seriously, out of all the people who might travel by train but can currently think of reasons not to? How high up the priority list of the average person is this?

I've worked in the rail industry for 25 years, and I have never, ever heard anyone ever say "I'd love to travel by train, but I never do because they don't have compartments". Out of all the issues currently affecting the industry, you think this one actually even registers on peoples' radar? I bet the vast majority of people under about 50 who only occasionally use trains, and don't visit heritage railways, don't even know what compartments are.

 

[bastien]

I've worked in the rail industry for 25 years

Say no more.

 

[RLBH]

I bet the vast majority of people under about 50 who only occasionally use trains, and don't visit heritage railways, don't even know what compartments are.

Oh, I bet they do - but only because they're in Harry Potter.

If you surveyed the general public, they probably would say they'd like to have a private compartment like on old-fashioned trains. And on the railways of 50 years ago, you probably had a good chance of getting that. Compartments are one of those things - like restaurant cars and sleeper trains - that people like the idea of because they're associated with a time when travel was perceived as more 'civilised'. When confronted with the realities, most people would rather have as many open coaches as possible, as often as possible, pack their own sandwiches, and only have to squeeze past one person to get into a seat.

 

[Journeyman]

Say no more.

What's that supposed to mean? I suspect it means I know a lot more about this than you. I've got very little patience for people who sit on the sidelines and whine, with absolutely no idea of the realities of trying to deliver a decent service, day in day out, in very challenging conditions.

I've had more customer contact with rail passengers than you will probably ever have, and never once has anyone ever mentioned wanting compartments back.

 

[Journeyman]

Oh, I bet they do - but only because they're in Harry Potter.

If you surveyed the general public, they probably would say they'd like to have a private compartment like on old-fashioned trains. And on the railways of 50 years ago, you probably had a good chance of getting that. Compartments are one of those things - like restaurant cars and sleeper trains - that people like the idea of because they're associated with a time when travel was perceived as more 'civilised'. When confronted with the realities, most people would rather have as many open coaches as possible, as often as possible, pack their own sandwiches, and only have to squeeze past one person to get into a seat.

True. As I've said before, compartments are fine if you get them to yourself, but pretty grim if you have to share with seven strangers, which on the current network is exactly what's going to happen 99% of the time.