Thoughts on Compartments

[hwl]

Fully agree, unfortunately there are some who are so blinkered in their opinion that they would refuse to agree. A mixture of compartments and open coaches gives everyone their choice. However as our railways are now run for profit first and comfort second the operators will always go for open as it’s cheaper to build and more “ sardines “ can be squeezed in regardless the length of the journey.

Compartments mean reducing the number of seats and reducing stand space - not a popular move on a busy network.

On a lot of early 20th century stock the compartment bulkheads were needed for structural integrity of the wooden body work.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Some people seem to be talking about compartments as if the "right" to choice is a matter of civil liberties. It isn't.

Safety however, is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Deborah_Linsley

 

[Journeyman]

Some people seem to be talking about compartments as if the "right" to choice is a matter of civil liberties. It isn't.

Safety however, is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Deborah_Linsley

I completely agree. Obviously completely isolated, non-gangwayed compartments of the type used here will never return, but even so, compartments isolate people and will hugely exacerbate anti-social and dangerous behaviour. If even one incident occurs that could have been prevented in open saloons, I'd say it's one too many.

 

[bastien]

What's that supposed to mean? I suspect it means I know a lot more about this than you. I've got very little patience for people who sit on the sidelines and whine, with absolutely no idea of the realities of trying to deliver a decent service, day in day out, in very challenging conditions.

I've had more customer contact with rail passengers than you will probably ever have, and never once has anyone ever mentioned wanting compartments back.

Selection bias. You've been talking to people who do use the railways, not the people who don't. But thanks for telling me I don't know what I'm on about, it reflects well on your industry.

 

[Journeyman]

Ugh, I can't be bothered with this any more. There's plenty of good reasons stated here as to why they're unsuitable for the modern railway. I'm outta here.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I completely agree. Obviously completely isolated, non-gangwayed compartments of the type used here will never return, but even so, compartments isolate people and will hugely exacerbate anti-social and dangerous behaviour. If even one incident occurs that could have been prevented in open saloons, I'd say it's one too many.

In the last decade or so I can think of two murders that have taken place on trains in the UK. Both occurred in open saloons, so the openness didn't deter those violent offenders.

The fear of violent crime is hugely exaggerated in the media, which has clearly led to several forum members being rather anxious about being out in public on their own. The reality is that unless you go out looking for trouble, trouble is very unlikely to find you. That's not to say that we shouldn't design trains to minimise the opportunities for such crimes, just that a little bit of perspective would do some people the world of good. There aren't hordes of miscreants awaiting the reintroduction of compartments with baited breath.

 

[Journeyman]

There aren't hordes of miscreants awaiting the reintroduction of compartments with baited breath.

Indeed there aren't - but neither are there plenty of law-abiding citizens clamouring for them either!

 

[delt1c]

Oh, come on. The idea that railways in the past were havens of opulent luxury compared to today is nonsense.

Look at almost all of the Southern Railway's first generation of suburban EMUs - they were converted from ancient wooden-bodied steam stock and were very austere and gloomy inside. The 2-HAL outer suburban units of 1939 had horrible upright and hard seats in Third Class, the ironing boards of their day, and in an attempt to squeeze more people in, the first all-steel 4-SUB units in the early 1940s had incredibly narrow compartments. If you were of even average height, you'd brush knees with the people opposite.

You fancy going back to that, do you?

Where in my post does it say that the past was a haven of opulent luxury? What I am saying is give the customers the choice. As for hard seats and cramped space, check many of the threads regarding modern seats and legroom. I am saying give customers the choice.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed there aren't - but neither are there plenty of law-abiding citizens clamouring for them either!

Probably not (I haven't surveyed anyone) but some members seem to think that the world is a horrible place fraught with danger and nastiness around every corner... which it certainly isn't. Bad things sometimes happen to good people, and that's obviously something society should work to minimise... but the world isn't as dangerous or as hostile as most media organisations would have you believe. If you don't go out because you're scared of being mugged, well played: you mugged yourself.

Back on compartments, I could see a DB-type arrangement being suitable for HS2, but they'll never come back to the classic network because of the capacity reduction.

 

[yorksrob]

Someone needs to market that stuff. I could fancy a Trojan sofa.

It would, of course, have to come with the dusty smell it always seemed to have in the past.

Given my housework 'regime', mine probably would !

 

[Journeyman]

Given my housework 'regime', mine probably would !

Haha! Nice authentic release of dust clouds every time you sit down?

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

In the last decade or so I can think of two murders that have taken place on trains in the UK. Both occurred in open saloons, so the openness didn't deter those violent offenders.

The fear of violent crime is hugely exaggerated in the media, which has clearly led to several forum members being rather anxious about being out in public on their own. The reality is that unless you go out looking for trouble, trouble is very unlikely to find you. That's not to say that we shouldn't design trains to minimise the opportunities for such crimes, just that a little bit of perspective would do some people the world of good. There aren't hordes of miscreants awaiting the reintroduction of compartments with baited breath.

Having had personal experience of violence and harassment on trains I really don't think you know what you're talking about...

 

[6Gman]

Oh, good grief. How many do you think it is, seriously, out of all the people who might travel by train but can currently think of reasons not to? How high up the priority list of the average person is this?

I've worked in the rail industry for 25 years, and I have never, ever heard anyone ever say "I'd love to travel by train, but I never do because they don't have compartments". Out of all the issues currently affecting the industry, you think this one actually even registers on peoples' radar? I bet the vast majority of people under about 50 who only occasionally use trains, and don't visit heritage railways, don't even know what compartments are.

Correct. Neither have I ever heard people say "what the railway really, really needs to do is to reduce the number of seats available by 25% by going back to compartments". I have heard people say "wouldn't it be nice to have those old compartments back" but without any awareness of the practicalities.

 

[Mogz]

Of course it’s not a civil liberties issue.

A perceived reduction in seating capacity is not an issue in first class (6 seats per pair of windows in a compartment is the same as 2+1 in an open coach).

In standard, the couple of family compartments that you would add per train would be an increased amenity that would benefit the non-compartment travellers by keeping the screaming kids out of the saloon. It would be easy to enforce via such rules as:

- Pre-booked travellers only.
- Adults only permitted when accompanied by a child under 7 (off peak)
Or
- Priority to adults with children under 7 (peak time).

If you take the perceived reduction in capacity to its logical conclusion, you should just take out as many seats as possible to create more standing room.

To those who scream that compartments are not wanted- has a survey ever been carried out as to the type of passenger accommodation that people would prefer on long distance trains?

 

[hwl]

Back on compartments, I could see a DB-type arrangement being suitable for HS2, but they'll never come back to the classic network because of the capacity reduction.

Certainly not for HS2 phase 1 rolling stock given the number of seats they want while retaining decent leg room and wasn't in the stock bid I was involved with.

 

[yorksrob]

Haha! Nice authentic release of dust clouds every time you sit down?

Indeed !

 

[Mogz]

A few of these in first and standard is the sort of thing I would propose. Is it too much to ask?

You could even call them 'pods' if 'compartments' is too backward looking.

Pic from a proposed HS2 carriage interior artists impression.

 

[bastien]

A few of these in first and standard is the sort of thing I would propose. Is it too much to ask?

You could even call them 'pods' if 'compartments' is too backward looking.

Pic from a proposed HS2 carriage interior artists impression.

The 444s had one of those didn't they, it was for the guard though, not the passengers. LOL.

They didn't use it much though 'cos it wasn't private enough. Double LOL.

 

[Mogz]

Or this?

 

[Mogz]

Or this? Glass partitioned walk-through compartment rather than side corridor?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry to disappoint, but the HS2 interior is almost certain to look a bit like this.

Class 800 interior

 

[Mogz]

These are more traditional, but it needn't be as traditional as these!

 

[Mogz]

Sorry to disappoint, but the HS2 interior is almost certain to look a bit like this.

Class 800 interior

I wouldn't mind if it did, frankly. The extra leg-room and decent table to airline seat mix on those things is certainly comfortable enough for a London-Birmingham trip.

Remember, the ICE trains are mainly in airline style layout with a few tables, but also have a bistro and a few compartments!

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Why not something more like this? Partitioned off individual or pairs of seats. Private, modern and works well for solo travellers or couples rather than the groups of 4-6 that are perfectly suited to compartments.

A few drawbacks. They're large (but could be made smaller). The lie-flat bed and seat back screen would be unnecessary. But in first class at least it seems like a good way to offer privacy to individual passengers without the drawbacks of full compartments.

I really feel that Caledonian Sleeper missed an opportunity, they could have fitted out coaches with seats like this and offered a premium seated sleeper service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Having had personal experience of violence and harassment on trains I really don't think you know what you're talking about...

What this post is effectively saying is "my experience was different to yours, therefore I'm right and you're wrong".

At no point did I say violent crime and harassment don't exist, nor even that they never happen on board trains. I did say that the threat of violence is often exaggerated by the media. There are countless surveys over the last few years that indicate fear of violent crime is rising among the general population, but crime statistics show a general fall in violent crimes, albeit with the odd spike e.g. knife crime in London.

Back to crimes on board trains, two anecdotes that spring to mind are when a drunkard groped a stewardess on board a Czech train I was on- this occurred in a compartment without doors, the offender fled down the train until he reached the end vestibule behind the loco, and with nowhere to go he hid in the toilet. When the guard followed everyone in the carriage told him exactly where the a$$hole was hiding. He was thrown off at the next stop, but I have my suspicion that the guard also gave him a souvenir in the form of a black eye.

The other anecdote was closer to home, and involved a couple of scallies harassing a young lass who had the temerity to go out dressed in gothic clothing. This time I intervened despite not usually feeling confident enough to do such a thing, and told them that if they didn't stop I'd be sending my (non-existent, but they weren't to know) video of their actions to the Police... I timed this to coincide with a station stop so I had an escape if needed, but in a sense it worked as they turned their attentions to me rather than the girl. It was only verbals in my case and they got off at that stop anyway.

Sorry, I've gone off at a tangent but my point is that I said violence/harassment is not as common as many seem to think- not that it didn't exist at all. If you didn't get that from my previous posts, I don't know what to tell you other than to work on your reading comprehension.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

What this post is effectively saying is "my experience was different to yours, therefore I'm right and you're wrong".

At no point did I say violent crime and harassment don't exist, nor even that they never happen on board trains. I did say that the threat of violence is often exaggerated by the media. There are countless surveys over the last few years that indicate fear of violent crime is rising among the general population, but crime statistics show a general fall in violent crimes, albeit with the odd spike e.g. knife crime in London.

Back to crimes on board trains, two anecdotes that spring to mind are when a drunkard groped a stewardess on board a Czech train I was on- this occurred in a compartment without doors, the offender fled down the train until he reached the end vestibule behind the loco, and with nowhere to go he hid in the toilet. When the guard followed everyone in the carriage told him exactly where the a$$hole was hiding. He was thrown off at the next stop, but I have my suspicion that the guard also gave him a souvenir in the form of a black eye.

The other anecdote was closer to home, and involved a couple of scallies harassing a young lass who had the temerity to go out dressed in gothic clothing. This time I intervened despite not usually feeling confident enough to do such a thing, and told them that if they didn't stop I'd be sending my (non-existent, but they weren't to know) video of their actions to the Police... I timed this to coincide with a station stop so I had an escape if needed, but in a sense it worked as they turned their attentions to me rather than the girl. It was only verbals in my case and they got off at that stop anyway.

Sorry, I've gone off at a tangent but my point is that I said violence/harassment is not as common as many seem to think- not that it didn't exist at all. If you didn't get that from my previous posts, I don't know what to tell you other than to work on your reading comprehension.

Not what I was saying, but I disagree greatly with a few of your points...

The fear of violent crime is hugely exaggerated in the media, which has clearly led to several forum members being rather anxious about being out in public on their own.

Since I'd posted about how I would feel unsafe using compartments on trains I took this to mean that you felt that any "anxiety" I have is unfounded. Which would be an unfair assumption to make.

The reality is that unless you go out looking for trouble, trouble is very unlikely to find you.

This is untrue. If you're a young woman and/or a member of a minority travelling alone on a late night train in some areas or a train full of (for example) drunk football fans you will absolutely know all about it, and you'll be thinking a lot about your personal safety a lot.

I agree that fear of crime =/= risk of crime. But there *is* a real risk of crime aboard trains. There is such a problem that back in 2015 there were real suggestions that we should have women only train carriages to tackle harassment (which I also think is a bad idea fyi). I think however this might be a very gendered perception of risk that members of a predominantly male railway forum might not fully appreciate.

In the last decade or so I can think of two murders that have taken place on trains in the UK. Both occurred in open saloons, so the openness didn't deter those violent offenders.

That's a false equivalency. Murders and violence can occur in open coaches but compartments and confined spaces greatly increase the risk of violence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really feel that Caledonian Sleeper missed an opportunity, they could have fitted out coaches with seats like this and offered a premium seated sleeper service.

They were going to, but supposedly there was an irreconcilable safety issue.

 

[bramling]

Some people seem to be talking about compartments as if the "right" to choice is a matter of civil liberties. It isn't.

Safety however, is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Deborah_Linsley

I'm not sure an unsolved murder from the 1980s is entirely relevant to the modern perspective.

In those days there was little if any CCTV, both on trains and stations. Secondly the compartment involved was a full-width one, which few are likely to advocate reintroducing.

 

[hwl]

O

A few of these in first and standard is the sort of thing I would propose. Is it too much to ask?

You could even call them 'pods' if 'compartments' is too backward looking.

Pic from a proposed HS2 carriage interior artists impression.

But not based on any HS2 rolling stock specification or manufacturers responses to it!. The illustation is of the upper deck of a captive GC gauge double deck solution - bike storage on the top floor should be saying something about practicality. Given dwell time issues there won't be double deck trains hence floor space will need to be optimised. One of the teder requirements also specified an all standard class "sardine" option for London - Birmingham /Manchester as the journey times are so low.

The HS2 family spaces (aka multi purpose bays) can be reconfigured to extra wheel chair or luggage/bike space and are completely open and the table is fold down.

 

[Mogz]

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/367122/response/913588/attach/7/Design Triangle HS2 HS2 OP REP 000 000002 P03 Report Part 1.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

p.38 and 39 show how you could achieve sound-proofed compartments that would keep the noisy kids from annoying other passengers within a hybrid saloon/compartment style layout, but that are easy to see into from all angles, alleviating safety concerns.