Threat to Terminate 'Overcrowded' Train

[Essexman]

Travelling from Euston to Manchester on Sunday the train was very busy (Man Utd v West Ham) and approaching Macclesfield the Train Manager announced that if there were a lot of people wanting to board he may have to terminate the train as it would be overcrowded. I’ve been on far more crowded trains before but never heard this said and thought that there is no safety limit on the capacity of a train. He said that if a boss got on and found there were too many people on board for him to walk through then he would be in trouble. Sounded a bit odd to me.

(But not as odd as his twice stated advice that as the train had been too full on leaving London for him to get through to check tickets, anyone without a ticket could tell people on the barrier that they’d got on at Stockport and save themselves some money. I suspect those announcement would have got him in trouble with his boss, hence I won’t name the train).

 

[Huntergreed]

Travelling from Euston to Manchester on Sunday the train was very busy (Man Utd v West Ham) and approaching Macclesfield the Train Manager announced that if there were a lot of people wanting to board he may have to terminate the train as it would be overcrowded. I’ve been on far more crowded trains before but never heard this said and thought that there is no safety limit on the capacity of a train. He said that if a boss got on and found there were too many people on board for him to walk through then he would be in trouble. Sounded a bit odd to me.

(But not as odd as his twice stated advice that as the train had been too full on leaving London for him to get through to check tickets, anyone without a ticket could tell people on the barrier that they’d got on at Stockport and save themselves some money. I suspect those announcement would have got him in trouble with his boss, hence I won’t name the train).

There is a maximum weight limit that, when reached, will prevent the Pendolino from moving, so if the service was seriously overcrowded in all areas of the train, taking any extra passengers may mean this could be exceeded, hence the need to stop the service and run as ECS to Manchester) as I would assume this would be easier for Virgin than telling people they can't join their booked service)

This announcement is very unfair, as those who have paid are losing out and it makes fare-dodging sound like a good idea, and I'm surprised he's not been pulled up for it, especially if that wasn't the first time he had done something like this.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

(But not as odd as his twice stated advice that as the train had been too full on leaving London for him to get through to check tickets, anyone without a ticket could tell people on the barrier that they’d got on at Stockport and save themselves some money. I suspect those announcement would have got him in trouble with his boss, hence I won’t name the train).

This is a serious allegation, particularly since IIRC Stockport has ticket barriers, so any passengers claiming to have gotten on there without tickets would get readily caught out by revenue staff and it could lead to a prosecution.

Personally, I would consider a letter to VTWC customer service.

 

[ComUtoR]

I have, in the past, specifically rang up the Signaller to get permission to run fast as I was overcrowded.

 

[Antman]

I thought train capacity was however many people could cram themselves on board?

I can appreciate he couldn't do a ticket check but he was a bit naughty saying what he did but then it shows the different attitudes to fare evasion amongst staff, some treat it as a joke.

And for all he knows one of his bosses might have been on board when he made that announcement!

 

[Mitch in Notts]

(But not as odd as his twice stated advice that as the train had been too full on leaving London for him to get through to check tickets, anyone without a ticket could tell people on the barrier that they’d got on at Stockport and save themselves some money. I suspect those announcement would have got him in trouble with his boss, hence I won’t name the train).

And presumably following his advice, anyone alighting at Stockport, and telling station staff they had boarded at Stockport, would be doing as instructed.....

 

[IanXC]

I have, in the past, specifically rang up the Signaller to get permission to run fast as I was overcrowded.

Not for the signaller to give that permission.

 

[jayah]

There is a maximum weight limit that, when reached, will prevent the Pendolino from moving, so if the service was seriously overcrowded in all areas of the train, taking any extra passengers may mean this could be exceeded, hence the need to stop the service and run as ECS to Manchester) as I would assume this would be easier for Virgin than telling people they can't join their booked service)

Are you extracting the proverbial?

What would happen if it left F&S and it started raining en route causing the weight of water on the carriages to mean the limit was suddenly exceeded? Would the train stop in a random field until it dried out again?

 

[yorksrob]

Travelling from Euston to Manchester on Sunday the train was very busy (Man Utd v West Ham) and approaching Macclesfield the Train Manager announced that if there were a lot of people wanting to board he may have to terminate the train as it would be overcrowded. I’ve been on far more crowded trains before but never heard this said and thought that there is no safety limit on the capacity of a train. He said that if a boss got on and found there were too many people on board for him to walk through then he would be in trouble. Sounded a bit odd to me.

(But not as odd as his twice stated advice that as the train had been too full on leaving London for him to get through to check tickets, anyone without a ticket could tell people on the barrier that they’d got on at Stockport and save themselves some money. I suspect those announcement would have got him in trouble with his boss, hence I won’t name the train).

I've had a couple of occasions when the train has been so crowded that the driver couldn't physically board.

 

[tsr]

Not for the signaller to give that permission.

In extreme disruption, signallers can give stop orders for certain TOCs (or can be requested to issue them), but would usually have to liaise with the TOC Control, unless they were unreachable - which sometimes happens.

For stop orders which involve removals of station calls, in my experience they would usually only be able to agree it just between themselves and the driver if it was causing a serious hazard to the running of the railway - eg. if the overcrowding on one service was delaying lots of other trains, and this would usually cause a crowd control issue further afield.

The bottom line is that a number of operators' crew are trained that a signaller is a valid authority which can issue a stop order, and if that comes about after they receive information or a request from train crew, so be it.

I have taken a signaller's instruction on stopping patterns on occasions, after discussing disruption with them, which I can say did influence their decisions - and not once has it been questioned...

 

[tsr]

Are you extracting the proverbial?

What would happen if it left F&S and it started raining en route causing the weight of water on the carriages to mean the limit was suddenly exceeded? Would the train stop in a random field until it dried out again?

Certain trains have fairly primitive weight detection systems which basically cause a fault indication at a certain limit, though it may not cause a stop away from a station.

This is not a new thing. I believe the first such system for passenger trains in the UK was on the 319s, linked to the suspension, though those trains have a very high tolerance for overcrowding so it's not too restrictive. I've only heard of one or two delays caused by it in recent years.

Given rainwater drains off a train roof quite quickly, I shouldn't imagine that would be a primary cause for concern...

 

[edwin_m]

Not sure how dumping a crowded trainload of passengers on to the narrow platform at Macclesfield makes sense on any level. It's unlikely they'd be able to arrange any alternative transport before the arrival of the next train, which was probably just as full so by the same logic would therefore also be emptied out. And imagine the headlines when a perfectly servicable train continues empty to its destination because there are too many people wanting to use it.

I would have thought the best thing to do would be to let any Macclesfield alighters off by opening a single door (might have to do this several times if they couldn't get down the train) but not let anyone board. But by the sound of the conductor's other remarks he wasn't thinking too straight and/or had decided he was sick of the job anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

Certain trains have fairly primitive weight detection systems which basically cause a fault indication at a certain limit, though it may not cause a stop away from a station.

This is not a new thing. I believe the first such system for passenger trains in the UK was on the 319s, linked to the suspension, though those trains have a very high tolerance for overcrowding so it's not too restrictive. I've only heard of one or two delays caused by it in recent years.

Given rainwater drains off a train roof quite quickly, I shouldn't imagine that would be a primary cause for concern...

The prototype passenger load weighing system (intiailly on 319421 I think) was developed by some then colleagues of mine, to estimate the load by monitoring the pressure in the suspension airbags and hence weigh the train. I'm not aware that it had any function to shut the train down, as it was always an addition to the original fit-out, though it's possible the 319 itself has such a feature. It was intended more for service planning than for real-time management of crowding, reducing the need for on-train staff to do counts when deciding which trains should be strenghtened or have stops removed etc in the next timetable. Similar equipment has been fitted to a range of trains since.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

DB sometimes terminate trains or request passengers without seat reservation to leave if it's too crowded. I was once aboard a Friday ICE to Hamburg and it wouldn't continue in Münster because there were too many people. Luckily a local train got me faster to the place where I wanted to exit than the ICE in the end. I think it has also have to do with safety. Imagine something happened and everybody had to leave the train but it was too full to reach the exits?

 

[Ianno87]

I would have thought the best thing to do would be to let any Macclesfield alighters off by opening a single door (might have to do this several times if they couldn't get down the train) but not let anyone board. But by the sound of the conductor's other remarks he wasn't thinking too straight and/or had decided he was sick of the job anyway.

That would take an awfully long time for a train with standing passengers, who get increasingly tired and restless at not moving anywhere... And you'd up the risk of someone falling ill.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I've been on the Friday evening Euston-Manchester relief train at 18h57 and the train manager has ordered people off due to overcrowding and the train not wanting to move.

 

[Antman]

I have, in the past, specifically rang up the Signaller to get permission to run fast as I was overcrowded.

But what if someone wants to get off at one of the stations non stopped?

 

[Pumbaa]

Not for the signaller to give that permission.

Not much else you can do when you're DOO. Very sensible in my opinion.

 

[Pumbaa]

But what if someone wants to get off at one of the stations non stopped?

Same as what happens everywhere else. They get off and get the next one.

 

[Antman]

Same as what happens everywhere else. They get off and get the next one.

Rather depends on the circumstances surely? Like how long until the next one and how many people will be inconvenienced etc? And wouldn't it be a matter for the TOC rather than the signaller? Don't drivers have to get some sort of document from station staff?

 

[pemma]

On the day the UEFA cup final was in Manchester Northern cancelled a number of trains because too many passengers got on. In most cases they were the last services so no-one was going to get off unless they promised alternative transport.

 

[Puffing Devil]

On the day the UEFA cup final was in Manchester Northern cancelled a number of trains because too many passengers got on. In most cases they were the last services so no-one was going to get off unless they promised alternative transport.

And I was left behind at Plumley on the first day of the England-South Africa test as the Pacer was deemed "too full" by the guard. There was room - nobody was moving down the aisles.

 

[Bromley boy]

Don't drivers have to get some sort of document from station staff?

This is not necessary if you're given a verbal instruction by the signaller over the GSMR. Clearly, the disruption that necessitates the alteration may occur while you're on the move and nowhere near a station.

On other occasions, you do indeed require a paper not to call order / special stop order, filled out correctly, referencing your head code etc. from station staff.

 

[greyman42]

The T.P.E. and voyager services that leave Newcastle after a football match are always rammed to the point that they have trouble getting the doors shut but always depart without anyone being asked to get off. So no weight restrictions on these services I presume.

 

[Antman]

This is not necessary if you're given a verbal instruction by the signaller over the GSMR. Clearly, the disruption that necessitates the alteration may occur while you're on the move and nowhere near a station.

On other occasions, you do indeed require a paper not to call order / special stop order, filled out correctly, referencing your head code etc. from station staff.

I remember a Southeastern driver saying that he had to have this piece of paper to authorise skipping some stops due to late running but yes I see what you mean about if you're between stations at the time

 

[AM9]

... but always depart without anyone being asked to get off. So no weight restrictions on these services I presume.

Any weight limit on diesel trains needs to accommodate an 'officially full' weight of passengers together with a completely full set of fuel tanks. I would imagine that the fuel tanks aren't full at the times that a football crowd would board, even after a lunchtime kick-off.

 

[Darandio]

The T.P.E. and voyager services that leave Newcastle after a football match are always rammed to the point that they have trouble getting the doors shut but always depart without anyone being asked to get off. So no weight restrictions on these services I presume.

It's happened on a Middlesbrough to York (and onwards) service on race day, so there is some sort of limit.

 

[IanXC]

Not for the signaller to give that permission.

In extreme disruption, signallers can give stop orders for certain TOCs (or can be requested to issue them), but would usually have to liaise with the TOC Control, unless they were unreachable - which sometimes happens.

For stop orders which involve removals of station calls, in my experience they would usually only be able to agree it just between themselves and the driver if it was causing a serious hazard to the running of the railway - eg. if the overcrowding on one service was delaying lots of other trains, and this would usually cause a crowd control issue further afield.

The bottom line is that a number of operators' crew are trained that a signaller is a valid authority which can issue a stop order, and if that comes about after they receive information or a request from train crew, so be it.

I have taken a signaller's instruction on stopping patterns on occasions, after discussing disruption with them, which I can say did influence their decisions - and not once has it been questioned...

Not much else you can do when you're DOO. Very sensible in my opinion.

Seems this very much depends on the route/TOC.

Strange things happen in the south eh :/

 

[pemma]

And I was left behind at Plumley on the first day of the England-South Africa test as the Pacer was deemed "too full" by the guard. There was room - nobody was moving down the aisles.

Looking at RTT it doesn't look like Northern took any action on subsequent days - the 0959 Chester to Manchester got delayed every day between Northwich and Altrincham. At that time there's a spare 142 sat at Chester which is swapped with a 156 at around 14:50.

 

[DarloRich]

There is a maximum weight limit that, when reached, will prevent the Pendolino from moving, so if the service was seriously overcrowded in all areas of the train, taking any extra passengers may mean this could be exceeded, hence the need to stop the service and run as ECS to Manchester) as I would assume this would be easier for Virgin than telling people they can't join their booked service)

This announcement is very unfair, as those who have paid are losing out and it makes fare-dodging sound like a good idea, and I'm surprised he's not been pulled up for it, especially if that wasn't the first time he had done something like this.

are you sure about that?