Throughput at gatelines with phone tickets compared to smart cards

[Edvid]

Has a solution been found for cross-London journeys?

As an interim measure TfL are looking to trial handheld scanners at certain interchange stations, though it's still yet to be determined when that'll happen.

The integration of fixed scanners with LU/Cubic gatelines, if TfL's recent Ticketing and Revenue Update editions are anything to go by, is still years away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The integration of fixed scanners with LU/Cubic gatelines, if TfL's recent Ticketing and Revenue Update editions are anything to go by, is still years away.

Given that the big railway uses the same type of gates in some places, why's that seen as hard? Is the TfL software completely different?

 

[Edvid]

My understanding based on TRU readings is that TfL believe cross-London e-tickets should be fully integrated with their Revenue Collection Contract, whereas the RDG believe their existing back-office (used to collect reported scans of e-tickets at gatelines elsewhere) is sufficient.

 

[317 forever]

Half the problem is the Cubic readers used at the vast majority of gatelines - they often take a good second or two to scan/interpret the Aztec code. If I'm using the ones on the gatelines at e.g. Manchester Victoria (I don't know who makes these) which are much more sensibly placed, they're usually as fast as paper tickets.

It took me about 10 or 15 seconds yesterday to see where to scan my phone at Manchester Victoria yesterday. The scanner is rather lower down than at other stations I've needed to scan my phone.

 

[Meerkat]

Never in travel history has anyone got to a ticket barrier then started searching through various pockets and bags for their paper ticket.

It’s less of an issue because you can put a ticket in a more convenient pocket, and carry it really easily (even in your teeth). You can also dip a hand in and know you have the ticket in your pocket and it’s ready to use the moment you take it out and barely needs looking at to get it right for putting in the gate.
I would imagine a good few people don’t like getting their phone out too early for fear of getting it nicked or dropping it.
Then of course you do get your phone out but get distracted by a notification and forget why (done this too many times when intending to use the timer for cooking…..)

 

[Deafdoggie]

It’s less of an issue because you can put a ticket in a more convenient pocket, and carry it really easily (even in your teeth). You can also dip a hand in and know you have the ticket in your pocket and it’s ready to use the moment you take it out and barely needs looking at to get it right for putting in the gate.
I would imagine a good few people don’t like getting their phone out too early for fear of getting it nicked or dropping it.
Then of course you do get your phone out but get distracted by a notification and forget why (done this too many times when intending to use the timer for cooking…..)

Because people can, doesn't mean they do. It's the same people who are always surprised they have to pay at the supermarket having queued up!

 

[AM9]

Because people can, doesn't mean they do. It's the same people who are always surprised they have to pay at the supermarket having queued up!

People who inadvertently delay others because they are not ready for paying, showing something, - or some other in-line action exist everywhere, although to be fair to them it is not always their fault that they aren't the fastest through the gate. At the other extreme there are those who think that their sense of urgency trumps all others' issues and when it doesn't go just as they want it to are just looking to blame another for their frustration. Public transport is 'for the public' and the public come in many flavours, - those that can't (or won't) accept that are doomed to a life of frustration and irritation.
In a transport context another (almost) mild amusement to me is at airports where there are travelators to mitigate the long walks between circulation areas. Many's the time when I've had heavy long-distance baggage when a chance to travel 100m just standing rather than trudging along a long corridor. Then about a quarter of the way down the travolator, there's an impatient person tutting and breathing heavily because they can't spring down the narrow footway owing to 'obstructions' - aka passengers who have allowed sufficient time to get 30 seconds of rest whilst still moving towards their destiunation.
The form of ticketing on railways used where there is a choice is there for each passenger to choose. Just as some think that their phone based world is the answer to everything, there are many more who regard loading a legally required permit to travel on a multi-role electronic device as more trouble than it is worth - as many in the Disputes & Prosecutions forum find to their cost. The simple fact is that paper tickets work, are relatively easy to secure from theft or just plain carelessness, and ultimately don't refuse to verify their validity beyond the holder's control.

Paper, the single most successful IT invention ever, - created by the Chinese just 1900 years ago and still going strong.

 

[edwin_m]

People who inadvertently delay others because they are not ready for paying, showing something, - or some other in-line action exist everywhere, although to be fair to them it is not always their fault that they aren't the fastest through the gate. At the other extreme there are those who think that their sense of urgency trumps all others' issues and when it doesn't go just as they want it to are just looking to blame another for their frustration. Public transport is 'for the public' and the public come in many flavours, - those that can't (or won't) accept that are doomed to a life of frustration and irritation.
In a transport context another (almost) mild amusement to me is at airports where there are travelators to mitigate the long walks between circulation areas. Many's the time when I've had heavy long-distance baggage when a chance to travel 100m just standing rather than trudging along a long corridor. Then about a quarter of the way down the travolator, there's an impatient person tutting and breathing heavily because they can't spring down the narrow footway owing to 'obstructions' - aka passengers who have allowed sufficient time to get 30 seconds of rest whilst still moving towards their destiunation.
The form of ticketing on railways used where there is a choice is there for each passenger to choose. Just as some think that their phone based world is the answer to everything, there are many more who regard loading a legally required permit to travel on a multi-role electronic device as more trouble than it is worth - as many in the Disputes & Prosecutions forum find to their cost. The simple fact is that paper tickets work, are relatively easy to secure from theft or just plain carelessness, and ultimately don't refuse to verify their validity beyond the holder's control.

Paper, the single most successful IT invention ever, - created by the Chinese just 1900 years ago and still going strong.

Some people at airports and stations need to hurry to catch a plane or a train. On a travelator it should be easy enough to position yourself and your luggage to one side when standing, and for the person overtaking to carry their luggage while doing so if it wouldn't fit through the gap on its wheels.

Paper tickets may have some benefits but with improving technology it must be getting easier to make a convincing forgery including the "security" printing on the front and the magstripe. A barcode is a simple and effective way round that - each ticket is unique so a copy of one already used won't work and a new barcode won't work either unless the forger is able to hack into the database too. In the future I'd expect all tickets issued at stations to carry a bar code, even if it is printed on a piece of orange card. But it would have to be scanned on board the train, and presented to the optical reader at the gate instead of the usual slot (unless the gates are modified with a barcode reader within the slot mechanism, which probably won't happen because operators will want rid of those moving parts).

 

[MattSGB]

Some people at airports and stations need to hurry to catch a plane or a train. On a travelator it should be easy enough to position yourself and your luggage to one side when standing, and for the person overtaking to carry their luggage while doing so if it wouldn't fit through the gap on its wheels.

Paper tickets may have some benefits but with improving technology it must be getting easier to make a convincing forgery including the "security" printing on the front and the magstripe. A barcode is a simple and effective way round that - each ticket is unique so a copy of one already used won't work and a new barcode won't work either unless the forger is able to hack into the database too. In the future I'd expect all tickets issued at stations to carry a bar code, even if it is printed on a piece of orange card. But it would have to be scanned on board the train, and presented to the optical reader at the gate instead of the usual slot (unless the gates are modified with a barcode reader within the slot mechanism, which probably won't happen because operators will want rid of those moving parts).

Indeed. Anyone considerate would stand in a way to allow others to pass. They are the uncourteous ones, not the people trying to make a connection. It's just like the one person on the rush hour escalator who decides to stand on the left and doesn't wonder why there is a clear path ahead of them with everyone ahead standing on the right and a surge of annoyed looking people behind.

Talking about QR codes, I am surprised there isn't much more widespread theft of them in general (not just train tickets). All it takes is a fairly distant scan of the QR code, and the ticket may as well be yours, so long as you use it before the victim. I am reminded a little of the 2020 pantomime where you had to log onto a website to confirm you weren't a plague-carrier before travelling. At the Garre du Nord border they were giving out badly photocopied QR codes to prove compliance, and they were collecting them at St Pancras (and pulling out the people who had left them on the train, for interrogation). No one else seemed to spot that they were all exactly the same QR code. They may as well have been sticking gold stars onto passports.

QR codes seem a very weak solution, and about the easiest thing possible to clone onto a phone.

 

[Benjwri]

All it takes is a fairly distant scan of the QR code, and the ticket may as well be yours, so long as you use it before the victim.

When we say a distant scan, having worked at a fair few venues using QR codes for tickets, i wish you luck. You can barely scan a QR code holding it directly into the camera sometimes. You have no chance of getting close enough to scan or get a clear enough photo that you could reproduce it for scanning without someone noticing. There is so much variation in Aztec codes that I find it unlikely you'll be able to create a scanable code using a distant photo of it, without significant effort in advanced software.

 

[AM9]

Some people at airports and stations need to hurry to catch a plane or a train. On a travelator it should be easy enough to position yourself and your luggage to one side when standing, and for the person overtaking to carry their luggage while doing so if it wouldn't fit through the gap on its wheels.

Sometimes there just isn't enough space for another to pass, - however co-operative the person with luggage is. And then there's those who expect to pass somebody who is already passing another. If they want to sprint, there's the path beside the travolator. Unless you are suggesting that the old and infirm should use that and walk all the way so that those who want to rush don't get hindered by the inconvenience of sharing anything with others.

Paper tickets may have some benefits but with improving technology it must be getting easier to make a convincing forgery including the "security" printing on the front and the magstripe. A barcode is a simple and effective way round that - each ticket is unique so a copy of one already used won't work and a new barcode won't work either unless the forger is able to hack into the database too. In the future I'd expect all tickets issued at stations to carry a bar code, even if it is printed on a piece of orange card. But it would have to be scanned on board the train, and presented to the optical reader at the gate instead of the usual slot (unless the gates are modified with a barcode reader within the slot mechanism, which probably won't happen because operators will want rid of those moving parts).

I wasn't criticising barcodes or QR codes on paper tickets, it's the medium that I maintain has the lowest risk for many (or the only for some).

 

[MattSGB]

When we say a distant scan, having worked at a fair few venues using QR codes for tickets, i wish you luck. You can barely scan a QR code holding it directly into the camera sometimes. You have no chance of getting close enough to scan or get a clear enough photo that you could reproduce it for scanning without someone noticing. There is so much variation in Aztec codes that I find it unlikely you'll be able to create a scanable code using a distant photo of it, without significant effort in advanced software.

It depends on what is contained in the QR code. If it is a booking reference (encrypted or not) then it could be scanned from quite some distance away. If it unnecessarily contains all of your personal details, then not so much (but that also runs the risk of being completely unscannable due to a knacked inkjet printer or a cracked screen). In general, QR codes should be as simple as possible, containing minimal data - the whole point of them is to enable quick and easy recognition. I've seen some crazily complex QR codes that are very tricky to scan (for example encoding massive URLs, that should have really been shortened before encoding), but that is poor design.

Sometimes there just isn't enough space for another to pass, - however co-operative the person with luggage is. And then there's those who expect to pass somebody who is already passing another. If they want to sprint, there's the path beside the travolator. Unless you are suggesting that the old and infirm should use that and walk all the way so that those who want to rush don't get hindered by the inconvenience of sharing anything with others.

I wasn't criticising barcodes or QR codes on paper tickets, it's the medium that I maintain has the lowest risk for many (or the only for some).

I'm suggesting that people should be considerate and not take up the entire space because they think they have an entitlement to it. It's just common courtesy. I'd imagine that elderly travellers are likely to be considerate by default. It's a different section of society that thinks only of themselves. And there is always space, luggage is not cube shaped.

 

[setdown]

As an interim measure TfL are looking to trial handheld scanners at certain interchange stations, though it's still yet to be determined when that'll happen.

The integration of fixed scanners with LU/Cubic gatelines, if TfL's recent Ticketing and Revenue Update editions are anything to go by, is still years away.

I believe that's happening now at Paddington Elizabeth Line. When I've been there recently, there's been one member of staff stood in the wide gate scanning e-tickets.

 

[Vonmon]

Some people at airports and stations need to hurry to catch a plane or a train. On a travelator it should be easy enough to position yourself and your luggage to one side when standing, and for the person overtaking to carry their luggage while doing so if it wouldn't fit through the gap on its wheels.

Paper tickets may have some benefits but with improving technology it must be getting easier to make a convincing forgery including the "security" printing on the front and the magstripe. A barcode is a simple and effective way round that - each ticket is unique so a copy of one already used won't work and a new barcode won't work either unless the forger is able to hack into the database too. In the future I'd expect all tickets issued at stations to carry a bar code, even if it is printed on a piece of orange card. But it would have to be scanned on board the train, and presented to the optical reader at the gate instead of the usual slot (unless the gates are modified with a barcode reader within the slot mechanism, which probably won't happen because operators will want rid of those moving parts).

Edwin_m Can i contact you please? As i would like to ask you some questions about the Dra and i believe you were involved in the set up

Some people at airports and stations need to hurry to catch a plane or a train. On a travelator it should be easy enough to position yourself and your luggage to one side when standing, and for the person overtaking to carry their luggage while doing so if it wouldn't fit through the gap on its wheels.

Paper tickets may have some benefits but with improving technology it must be getting easier to make a convincing forgery including the "security" printing on the front and the magstripe. A barcode is a simple and effective way round that - each ticket is unique so a copy of one already used won't work and a new barcode won't work either unless the forger is able to hack into the database too. In the future I'd expect all tickets issued at stations to carry a bar code, even if it is printed on a piece of orange card. But it would have to be scanned on board the train, and presented to the optical reader at the gate instead of the usual slot (unless the gates are modified with a barcode reader within the slot mechanism, which probably won't happen because operators will want rid of those moving parts).

Edwin_m Is there a way to contact you please? I would like to ask you some questions if possible on Dra as i noticed you said on an earlier post about the fact you helped set it up?

 

[ARIC]

A big problem with scanning mobiles that I've observed, is that to go from holding your phone to scroll, to placing it face down to scan, your phone ends up being horizontal, and most people's auto-rotate kicks in, taking their QR code off screen at the exact moment they need it.

At a recent visit to a theme park, the phone scanners are angled at 45 degrees on top of the barrier side, it stops this problem and the throughout of people was incredible at opening time - the gates barely closed.

 

[Benjwri]

It depends on what is contained in the QR code. If it is a booking reference (encrypted or not) then it could be scanned from quite some distance away. If it unnecessarily contains all of your personal details, then not so much (but that also runs the risk of being completely unscannable due to a knacked inkjet printer or a cracked screen). In general, QR codes should be as simple as possible, containing minimal data - the whole point of them is to enable quick and easy recognition. I've seen some crazily complex QR codes that are very tricky to scan (for example encoding massive URLs, that should have really been shortened before encoding), but that is poor design.

I’d still be very impressed if you managed to get a scan from more than half a metre away. Although scanners have greater range in a controlled environment, in the far from perfect lighting and with constant movement there is no way you would be able to covertly scan a QR code.

 

[edwin_m]

I’d still be very impressed if you managed to get a scan from more than half a metre away. Although scanners have greater range in a controlled environment, in the far from perfect lighting and with constant movement there is no way you would be able to covertly scan a QR code.

In any case, people would only be displaying their QR codes if they were about to be scanned. The legitimate code would almost certainly be scanned first and the second one rejected.

 

[Mojo]

As an interim measure TfL are looking to trial handheld scanners at certain interchange stations, though it's still yet to be determined when that'll happen.

The integration of fixed scanners with LU/Cubic gatelines, if TfL's recent Ticketing and Revenue Update editions are anything to go by, is still years away.

I believe that's happening now at Paddington Elizabeth Line. When I've been there recently, there's been one member of staff stood in the wide gate scanning e-tickets.

Note that the TRU is not a TfL document but a document for London Underground staff, therefore any initiatives being done by Elizabeth line and their staff will not be detailed within it.