Ticket Barriers in General

[rosscbrown]

Simple question: how do "they" decide the direction in which a gate will allow passage? I've always assumed that it would be automatic taking into account arrivals and departures to decide which way a ticket barrier was open.

Say you had one barrier with six entry/exit points ("gates") with two trains arriving and one train departing the platforms over a 10 minute period. I've always assumed that the barrier would have four gates allowing passage from the platform side (to exit the station, if you will) and the remaining two gates allowing passage from the station concourse to the platform side (to board the train).

However, I was recently at Haymarket and had to ask a member of station staff to let me through the manual gate as all the ticket operated gates were set to only allow passage from the platform side.

So, the gate direction is either up to station staff to do as they please with or the computer software has been badly designed. Does anyone know?

 

[Aictos]

In short and I probably get shot for this but it depends on the time of day mainly as take the morning peak at my station, there's going to be more people coming into the station then out of the station so out of the 3 automatic gates we have - 2 would be set for entry only and 1 would be set for exit and the same would apply for the evening peak with 2 gates being used for exit and 1 gate being used for entry.

Of course, staff have to use their discretion especially if overcrowding is likely which in that case, all gates would be set to the open position to try and resolve the overcrowding.

Staff in this instance are revenue staff in the booking office (I think they might have a emergency button to open all gates), staff on the gates themselves who are responsible for the safe operation of them and assisting passengers with tickets and finally station staff who can assist the revenue staff in resolving the overcrowding by all means and as a last resort close the station if the overcrowding is too bad.

 

[jon0844]

At WGC, I've seen gates set to only one direction - and because they have so few, when a busy train comes in they'll usually open them all up because they know there's a risk of people falling onto the tracks. Fare evaders must therefore know what trains to get for a nice easy exit or entrance!

At Hatfield, they swap and change them regularly for when a train arrives. They can also set a gate to be 'first come, first served' so presumably showing as green in both directions!

One problem with having so few gates is that if they don't open them all, they'll open one - and then go back to manually checking. I am sure many, many people get through because they can't/won't check thoroughly at all.

 

[Mojo]

According to the Railway Group Standard and the guidance notes the person monitoring them must have easy access to the emergency open button and also adjust them to take into account of changing passenger flow.

 

[jon0844]

The plungers are always very easily accessible 'airside' by railway staff at the stations I've seen with gates. Presumably there are few occasions where people may wish to enter quickly in an emergency as against getting out.

I've been tempted to use the plunger more than once when it's clear it's going to take ages to get out - but never actually done so. I would if a station was ever left unattended, which has happened on occasion. To be fair, VERY rarely and usually if gateline staff need to use the toilet or deal with something, they'll open them all first as they should (must).

 

[thelem]

At Brighton the LED sign showing status isn't always easy to read, so there are manual stickers as well. It's a really bad system because the stickers will consistently be inaccurate, either because the gate direction has changed or a gate is out of use (LED shows red, green gates either side). The gates at either end have a permanent sign, instead of the LED display.

Its quite common to see 2 or 3 gates out of use (Brighton has 10 or so gates). Is that common, or is it a problem thats particular to Brighton?

 

[jon0844]

I think the gates are incredibly unreliable, and I see someone servicing the gates at Hatfield almost weekly! I mean, how much is there to go wrong?!

 

[Aictos]

if gateline staff need to use the toilet or deal with something, they'll open them all first as they should (must).

Which is the instructions from management that if they are unstaffed then they must be left in the open position.

Gatelines are great but they must be staffed properly which take Peterborough for example which doesn't have a gateline like FCC stations YET:

Now they have a manual ticket check on the main doors and on the cafe doors leading onto the platform from about 6am to about 1pm which is all well and good as it deals with the morning peak but what about the evening peak where there's no ticket checking taking place at all apart from the odd ticket inspector on the FCCs and the guards on the other services.

Now anyone with common sense would see that revenue staff should be available from 6am to about 9pm at Peterborough to check tickets as that deals with the morning peak, the day passengers and the evening peak.

With NXEC and FCC making sure their staff work together at Peterborough manning such a barrier issued with ticket machines which would certainly cut back on the ticketless travel in the evening.

 

[philjo]

At Potters Bar, there are 2 sets of barriers - one for each ramp to the north & southbound platforms.
There have been occasions when all barriers are set for out only (when I have wanted to go in) & vice versa - the staff often seem surprised when people get off a southbound train & want to go out through the barriers in the morning peak (even though lots of people get off that train every day)


Once at WGC the gates were unattended (& closed) for at least 5 minutes- the barriers there still don't accept my season ticket (even after reporting this to FCC on numerous occasions). I was trying to go onto the platform - fortunately a driver came through & found someone to open the gates for me.

 

[jon0844]

I can't understand why King's Cross is 'opened' between 8-9pm, considering it probably remains busy right up to the last train. Perhaps FCC has figured lots of people can get through with a normal Travelcard (claiming to go no further than Finsbury Park) and it's not worth the bother - but that only proves the need for checks at the other end.

Of course, people can then lie about where they got on. I'm seeing people getting off a semi-fast train at Hatfield (even ones to WGC) then waiting 5 minutes for the all station train behind, also to WGC. So, they're obviously going to the same place but must be preparing to say that they boarded at a station the semi-fast didn't call at (e.g. Welham Green). Perhaps the ticket office closes early there, so they feel they can avoid the penalty fare if they find the gateline in use.

Potters Bar is a pain for me because of the length of time between me being able to use my ticket again - so I get there, pop out for a McDonald's, Subway etc and then have to be let back in manually. Nobody ever checks my ticket - yet I'm simply asking to come through waving something gold from about 5 metres away!

 

[alan]

given that gates are open a fair amount of the time how much do they save TOC, surely its not cheap to install and operate? Or is just the principle of reducing non-ticket travel?

 

[jon0844]

Hatfield has two members of staff at most times - the same number that used to check tickets manually when FCC took over and decided revenue protection was generally a good idea (Wagn didn't seem that bothered at all).

It must save quite a bit of money, especially when they lock out child and YPRC tickets and make them go through the manual gate. I see someone almost weekly being done for not having their young person's card (and they always seem to think they don't need one and cannot understand why they might need to prove they have one).

 

[johnb]

Now they have a manual ticket check on the main doors and on the cafe doors leading onto the platform from about 6am to about 1pm which is all well and good as it deals with the morning peak but what about the evening peak where there's no ticket checking taking place at all apart from the odd ticket inspector on the FCCs and the guards on the other services.

But the people travelling in the evening peak have already been checked in the morning peak...

 

[jon0844]

What about the 'shift change' as commuters return home and others are off out for the evening?

 

[Aictos]

But the people travelling in the evening peak have already been checked in the morning peak...

You miss the point 100%!

Yes, people who travelled outbound in the morning will be coming back in the evening but what about all the passengers starting their journeys in the evening going to places?

There's still a reasonable flow of passengers for revenue checks to be maintained in the evening as well and what about weekends when there's none?

 

[jon0844]

I know some commuters take a chance, especially on routes that have busy trains where RPIs can't easily move through a train (this enables some to get tickets that get through gates at each end, say a ticket to the next stop. On the GN route, it means people can get a ticket from Hatfield to Welham Green, then ride on to Finsbury Park (no gates but the odd manual check) and use a PAYG Oyster) but what about the people that are more likely to evade fares, like the kids on a night out?

Throw in some booze and you'll also have them running riot with nobody keeping watch for the inevitable damage that occurs on late night services.

Personally, I'd have stations manned (like the tube and London Overground) until the last train departed. Won't happen though as someone has to pay for it - yet I'd reckon there would be many cost savings as a result.

 

[asylumxl]

They need to be manned to be effective, so why not just put the staff on the trains doing inspections? That way there is nowhere for fare evaders to hide. I know FCC regularly do this in the London Thameslink group of stations, which seems much mor effective to me.

 

[jon0844]

They need to be manned to be effective, so why not just put the staff on the trains doing inspections? That way there is nowhere for fare evaders to hide. I know FCC regularly do this in the London Thameslink group of stations, which seems much mor effective to me.

Well, if you see the fun and games when inspectors make it quite obvious they're there - you CAN avoid being done if you're lucky. Either jump off at a station and double back (I've seen an RPI notice once and go back, but usually that's an easy way of getting out of being checked), hide in the toilet (yes, RPIs will pass without checking the toilets!) and so on.

To do a train properly, you blitz it with 4-5 undercover inspectors. I've seen this prove very successful, but that obviously requires more manpower than the single manned checks - where the RPI will usually opt for a casual warning if they feel they're in any way at risk. Thus, the hardcore evaders get off anyway.

IMO, inspectors should never work alone for this reason - both for their effectiveness and safety. May as well keep them even safer by sending them home!

 

[johnb]

You miss the point 100%!

Yes, people who travelled outbound in the morning will be coming back in the evening but what about all the passengers starting their journeys in the evening going to places?

No I don't. The point is, the number of evening-journey-starting pax is low compared to the number of commuters, so it's possible-bordering-on-likely that it's more cost-effective to carry out a morning blockade only, rather than hiring two shifts of inspectors.

 

[jon0844]

As I said, while there are suited fare evaders - there's probably more money to make (save) by protecting trains in the evening.

In fact, why not just skip the morning check and have it start from around 4.30 until the last train. That way you get the commuters on their way back AND the scrotes that 'take over' later on.

Having visible staff has many other benefits too, as many people are put off travelling at night. Onboard security/guards and manned stations would probably increase usage even more - and with the right type of people.

TfL certainly has the right idea here. I'd like to see all inner-suburban services staffed, but someone has to pay for it - or we need to see TfL taking over the running of these stations.

 

[Aictos]

TFL was supposed to take over all services to Welwyn Garden City, Hertford North and so far on the Thameslink route when it was proposed by Red Ken a couple of years back.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder how that work have worked - with all the Hertford North/WGC stoppers being part of London Overground, and presumably FCC running their semi-fast trains to give some 'competition' at stations like WGC, Hatfield, Potters Bar and Finsbury Park. I guess we'd probably have new trains by now too!

I wonder if this will ever happen in the future, considering there have been talks about TfL part funding a 15-minute service on the inner-suburban route. No idea about TL, but perhaps that would be the same?

What's the frequency on the former Silverlink routes? Is that every 15 minutes throughout the day or more/less?

 

[thelem]

In fact, why not just skip the morning check and have it start from around 4.30 until the last train. That way you get the commuters on their way back AND the scrotes that 'take over' later on.

Or even better, why not move the staff around? Have each station protected 3 mornings per week, and 3 evenings per week. Also, have regular checks with a large team of inspectors getting on at one station, checking all tickets and getting off at the next. Also have a few inspectors at the boarding station, so people who get off at the boarding station still get caught.

 

[jon0844]

I think they do move around, but they don't seem to be THAT organised. In the summer holidays, they may want to do more checking as there will be loads of kids off school - but I bet most of the inspectors will also be on their holidays...

 

[Skie]

Merseyrails gates are a bit pants. Far slower than they should be, at Old Hall Street you tend to see crowds of people at them and at the manned gates, sometimes backing up to the escalators during peak which cant be safe.

Oddly, the 4 automatic gates are also tied into the older metal swing gates on the other side of the concourse (the area that seems like wasted space, or room for extra automatic barriers in the future). When the staff hit the plunger to open all of the gates, the metal gates slam open too.

 

[First class]

Never seen any such incident at Old Hall Street, and the offices for management are located there so senior staff would notice. All companies, particularly TOCs risk access this type of thing.

Station Staff put 3 out of 4 barriers to the busiest direction during the peak, (3 exit morning, 3 entry evening). If passengers put their RailPass season ticket through them instead of waiting with the TRIO lot of people they'd move a lot quicker!

The barriers are the same ones as in London!! It's not the gates, it's the people using them which are slower. Half of them put the wrong ticket in, then faf around for a few mins blocking the barrier, or someone puts a ticket in that they've been screwing up on the train expecting it to work... or someone randomly picks one of the thousands of train tickets they have in their bag from months of travelling...

The EMO (Emergency Open Plunger) releases all barriers/gates when no staff are present. This is a legal requirement.

The people that do my head in are the ones that go to the manual gates with orange tickets telling staff they need to keep them for expenses. Argh! Get a receipt then!

Ah well, once the barrier masterplan is sorted, there won't be any of that malarky, (EVERYONE will eventually have to go through a barrier, no manual gate! Smartcards all the way!).

 

[philjo]

The people that do my head in are the ones that go to the manual gates with orange tickets telling staff they need to keep them for expenses. Argh! Get a receipt then!

The problem is that the receipts generally do not show the information required by work for claiming travel expenses - for this reason work usually insist on attaching the _original_ ticket to the claim form.

the FCC receipts do show the origin & destination station for the journey, but omit a lot of the other information required by work.

e.g. Class of travel is shown on the ticket, but not on the receipt - work do not usually allow 1st class travel, so this info is required.
date of travel is not shown on the receipt, only the date/time of purchasing the ticket.
also, is it anytime/off-peak ticket - again not shown on the receipt, but work require this info

I also understand that for self-employed people, offsetting business travel expenses the original tickets are required by the Inland Revenue - they do not accept receipts as evidence of the expenditure.

 

[Mojo]

The barriers are the same ones as in London!! It's not the gates, it's the people using them which are slower. Half of them put the wrong ticket in, then faf around for a few mins blocking the barrier, or someone puts a ticket in that they've been screwing up on the train expecting it to work... or someone randomly picks one of the thousands of train tickets they have in their bag from months of travelling...

Also they are NOT the same as the majority of the ones in London. We had this discussion a few months ago; they are a new-ish (2004 era I believe) design by Cubic. Most London stations have either the old air powered ones (on the Underground), or the older CTS design: http://www.directenquiries.com/images\LUPhotos.2008\302\Photos\2008-09-25-49173.jpg.

These are far quicker at opening, as well as sucking in & reading tickets.

Also, how many people in London are on Oyster, which also speeds up throughput.

 

[Skie]

Station Staff put 3 out of 4 barriers to the busiest direction during the peak, (3 exit morning, 3 entry evening). If passengers put their RailPass season ticket through them instead of waiting with the TRIO lot of people they'd move a lot quicker!

I used to do this, but the ticket stopped working after a month or so of use. Cant imagine how tatty it would be after the full year, and most of the time the manned barrier is faster. Its also nice to see they have begun to open the manned barriers at either side of the automatic ones now during peak. Kudos for the staff there for getting the crowds through quickly.

The barriers are the same ones as in London!! It's not the gates, it's the people using them which are slower.

Pretty sure they are noticably slower. The LU ones are fantastically fast, and any new barriers should aim to copy them, especially considering their age.

Ah well, once the barrier masterplan is sorted, there won't be any of that malarky, (EVERYONE will eventually have to go through a barrier, no manual gate! Smartcards all the way!).

So are the railpasses and trio's going to be replaced by smartcards?

 

[Matt Taylor]

Barrier staff can control each barrier individually from the user control panel which also acts as a diagnostic tool in the event of an error occurring. Barriers can be set to reject certain destinations which is useful if you want to do a full manual check of tickets from a given destination (for example Castle Cary during the Glastonbury festival) My favourite is the childlock which refuses all child tickets, we get as many penalty fares as a result of this tool as we do from ticketless passengers.