Ticket Barriers

[Failed Unit]

Don't want to Hi-Jack the Kings Cross thread (some of you may be surprised with my view point here considering how against them I am for the IC services at Kings Cross)

Is it true that ticket barriers at stations must be physically manned or would a CCTV relay be good enough? If for example New Southgate got ticket barrier, would a member of staff need to be there when they are in operation? Just asking this question because it is this type of station where they are needed to cut down on free travel to places like New Barnet.

The other question I have about programming. Last week I had an Edinburgh - London Z12 ticket. My ultimate destination was Hoxton. Everything was find until I got to Dalston Kingsland. I put my ticket in, and it swallowed it, meaning I had to use my oyster from Dalston Junction. My first reaction was to look for a member of staff to get the ticket retrieved but could not find one. Anyone know why that station does not allow interchanges and what I should have done to continue my journey which was still in zone 2? Why were the not manned (if they are not required to I wonder when the likes of New Southgate will get the barriers)

It also makes me wonder if barriers are installed and not manned, will the vandal just jump over the top of them?

 

[Fred26]

The gates have to be manned, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're manned with someone standing on them. Southend Victoria gates are controlled from the ticket office, including an automatic release and so no permanent gateline staff are required.
I don't believe CCTV would be good enough, because you'd need to be able to hit an emergency release button and also, it helps if you can hear people screaming...

I can only make an educated guess, but I'd say that the gates at Dalston Kingsland were probably being watched by someone in an office (TfL likes it's stations to have some staff presence). Presuming your ticket was valid for the interchange, had you been able to find the staff member, you probably wouldn't have had much difficulty retrieving your ticket. I've been to Dalston Kingsland once though, so couldn't say for sure about staffing.

 

[transportphoto]

It seems that Kingsland is done via the ticket office next to the barriers... its a problem when there is a queue and your on boxes (as my uncle found out last summer!)

 

[Failed Unit]

The gates have to be manned, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're manned with someone standing on them. Southend Victoria gates are controlled from the ticket office, including an automatic release and so no permanent gateline staff are required.

I can only make an educated guess, but I'd say that the gates at Dalston Kingsland were probably being watched by someone in an office (TfL likes it's stations to have some staff presence). Presuming your ticket was valid for the interchange, had you been able to find the staff member, you probably wouldn't have had much difficulty retrieving your ticket. I've been to Dalston Kingsland once though, so couldn't say for sure about staffing.

I guess I could have just beign unlucky in that case as the person could have be doing other things, even as simple as off to the toilet or on the platform.

I did suspect that was the case about the manning at small stations, so I guess places like New Southgate will never see the barriers as they probably wouldn't make a return. Much more simple to do what is done now and have an RPI blockage every now and then.

 

[swt_passenger]

Havant (SWT) operates offpeak with the up side barriers unmanned, and there is CCTV supervision from the down side barriers, where the control panel is duplicated. They also have a close up camera system at a help point that allows them to read tickets, IIRC...

 

[Mojo]

CCTV can be used, provided the person monitoring it can do so adequately and has access to change the flow of barriers and can also use the emergency open facility.

I have posted on this matter previously, but the best I can find is this post which details the position as of 2008.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=222637&postcount=11

 

[Matt Taylor]

Havant (SWT) operates offpeak with the up side barriers unmanned, and there is CCTV supervision from the down side barriers, where the control panel is duplicated. They also have a close up camera system at a help point that allows them to read tickets, IIRC...

With respect, you are not quite correct there. Each side must be manned while in use, there is a CCTV link and this was used temporarily but for a number of months it has been out of commission (due to H+S fears I believe). The issues with the CCTV link have now been resolved so it is only a matter of time before it is put back in service but I personally have concerns about how successful it will be due to ticketing issues which are specific to Havant.

Guildford, Staines, Surbiton and Crawley are other stations that already use the CCTV mode of operation.

 

[paul1609]

With respect, you are not quite correct there. Each side must be manned while in use, there is a CCTV link and this was used temporarily but for a number of months it has been out of commission (due to H+S fears I believe). The issues with the CCTV link have now been resolved so it is only a matter of time before it is put back in service but I personally have concerns about how successful it will be due to ticketing issues which are specific to Havant.

Guildford, Staines, Surbiton and Crawley are other stations that already use the CCTV mode of operation.

Horsham has had CCTV for some years on one set of barriers, not sure about Crawley.

 

[Tufty]

Northern's gatelines are manned. In case a pax gets trapped or walloped by the paddles. The machine may somtimes spit the odd ticket out as well, so the human element is required for safety and access/egress. The staff also check tickets that wont go through the machine i.e gmpte pass, vouchers and nunerous other passes out there. The gates are also manualy managed at peak and off peak times to improve pax through put. The gateline's also have a big red emergency open overide button and programable head unit usually kept near the CCTV monitors. Software is updated by the manufacturer via the net.

 

[krus_aragon]

Is it true that ticket barriers at stations must be physically manned or would a CCTV relay be good enough?

Both are used at Cardiff Central: the main gateline by the steps are manned when in use, whereas the gates by the elevators are unmanned, with CCTV and a help-point button for passengers to speak to a member of staff.

 

[Birdbrain]

I tried to leave Cardiff Central with a FOSW ticket and had to talk to staff via the CCTV to get the gates to work!

 

[jon0844]

If New Southgate or other small stations with platform islands get gates, I expect they'll be more like WGC which is staffed as there's a clear and obvious safety risk from overcrowding.

FCC probably doesn't want to run the risk of having a remote CCTV operator missing the carnage at peak hours - as people try and come in and go out of just FOUR gates! There's a risk of people getting knocked onto the track on either side, so when the gates are closed - there's at least one person there (usually more, so they open the wide gate).

There is CCTV for the lift, and I suppose they could monitor the platform on the other side but I'm pretty sure they only use it for the lift - and if there was a train blocking the view to the other island, I am not sure any CCTV footage on what is a very small LCD screen could show properly what was going on.

At St Albans, there's a side entrance that is far enough away from the track to be monitored remotely.

At other stations, a limited number of gates only cause inconvenience, not actual danger.

 

[Mike395]

Ashford have automatic gates going out towards the Eurostar station check-in which are unmanned with CCTV - can cause quite a crush in the rush hours, or just after a Eurostar arrives.

 

[wyvfe1]

Last time I remember RPI came to New Southgate (Feb 2010) 3 guys blocked the steps up near the ticket office, they started to check tickets.

My Oyster was checked and gave a red light, I told him I just swiped "out" on the platform. Told him I swiped in at Canary Wharf and out just a few seconds ago.
Seems they can only check tickets on the train or like on the DLR inside the Red Line.

 

[RPI]

At the new gatelines at Exeter Central and Truro the main barriers are manned and the "other" exits (from car park at Truro and from the North footbridge at Exeter Ctl) hace CCTV monitored gates with help points, if your ticket wont work you press the help point button and show your ticket to a camera and the staff then let you out, but the main gatelines must always be manned.

 

[Aictos]

At WGC, I've yet to see this but the lifts there have CCTV and a small monitor together with a small remote panel which the revenue staff can use to remotely check tickets and also control the lift if need be.

Maidenhead has something similar in that there is a remote panel to control the lift/s in the platform office.

 

[thelem]

Barriers were recently installed at Burgess Hill, which has three exits - one on each platform to the car parks and one on the footbridge which also has the ticket office.

When operational the gates at the ticket office are manned by one person (in additional to the member of staff selling tickets), and the gates on both platforms are manned by another person, who stands on platform 2 with a CCTV link to platform 1 (the gates themselves are just outside their view). If the person wants to leave the gates for a break etc then they will open all gates (even though there is another member of staff present). If a passenger arrives on platform 2 with a ticket that won't go through the gate, then they will show it to the CCTV camera and the gates will be opened for all passengers - no more tickets on that train will be checked.

I'm not sure how much the gates themselves cost to install/maintain, but it may be economical to install them at stations that are too small to staff permanently. Before the gates were installed, there used to be teams of something like 8 staff checking tickets once every month or so. Because it now only needs two staff to check all tickets, you could have weekly ticket checks with the same number of staff.