Ticket confiscated and told to expect a court date

[Benjwri]

They could of course involve BTP.....

Although whether BTP would consider the evidence available, which as far as we can tell is solely a ticket bought from a station other than the destination, sufficient evidence to even investigate, let alone be asking for details, is another matter.

 

[trebor79]

OP said the inspector took their railcard too. Wouldn't that be linked to an address on the railways own systems? I don't know, it's many years since I purchased a railcard and can't recall what information was required to obtain one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

OP said the inspector took their railcard too. Wouldn't that be linked to an address on the railways own systems? I don't know, it's many years since I purchased a railcard and can't recall what information was required to obtain one.

Ah. If they took the Railcard they will easily obtain the details from that.

 

[Brissle Girl]

By paper railcard they actually meant their paper ticket.

 

[Bertie the bus]

On the face of it, at that point the OP tried to get through the barrier with a valid ticket for travel. Is that a good reason for taking someone's name and address?

It doesn’t seem enough to confiscate somebody’s ticket either which is why I suggested they have been targeted because Chiltern already know who they are, what they have been doing and, now they have a return portion of a ticket they used that morning, they have some evidence as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn’t seem enough to confiscate somebody’s ticket either which is why I suggested they have been targeted because Chiltern already know who they are, what they have been doing and, now they have a return portion of a ticket they used that morning, they have some evidence as well.

It would be enough if it was bought online.

What you say is possible, though.

 

[WesternLancer]

Despite the fact that Chiltern are clearly rigorous on ticket infringements is there not a reasonable probability that the staff member stopped the OP, was suspicious of their ticket, questioned them (to which the OP made no specific admission that the staff could then use to support any potential prosecution threat and there is no other supporting evidence of their evasion, like being caught on the train), took some evidence from the ticket just in case their revenue protection back office team might be interested but also as a low level 'warning' to the OP - which from what has been said on here has worked in terms of the OPs future intended behaviour.

The advice has to be
- 100% avoid doing this or any other dodgy ticket activity again
- AND watch out in case you hear from the railway for at least the next 6 months - ensure post is checked, esp if move address
- head back here for advice if the railway or their agents (TIL probably) make contact about this.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Hypothetical scenario:
Ticket for Wembley Stadium to Marylebone, printed at 11:30 at Bicester Village, read and retained at the barriers at Marylebone just after 12:39.
The TOD (Tickets On Demand) reference number is traceable back to the online account used to purchase it. The printed ticket contains a time stamp and code that identifies the location station where it was printed.
The defence of ‘my friend gave me a lift in his car to Wembley Stadium, where I boarded the train’ is not credible. He drove through London traffic from Bicester to Wembley in under an hour??
Looking for a person presenting a return portion with the same TOD reference would not be difficult. Especially if trying to pass through when there was no imminent departure that calls at Wembley Stadium…

 

[Kite159]

Hypothetical scenario:
Ticket for Wembley Stadium to Marylebone, printed at 11:30 at Bicester Village, read and retained at the barriers at Marylebone just after 12:39.
The TOD (Tickets On Demand) reference number is traceable back to the online account used to purchase it. The printed ticket contains a time stamp and code that identifies the location station where it was printed.
The defence of ‘my friend gave me a lift in his car to Wembley Stadium, where I boarded the train’ is not credible. He drove through London traffic from Bicester to Wembley in under an hour??
Looking for a person presenting a return portion with the same TOD reference would not be difficult. Especially if trying to pass through when there was no imminent departure that calls at Wembley Stadium…

Especially when majority of genuine passengers for Wembley Stadium will be using contactless/oyster.

 

[doc7austin]

Just for clarity, I bought a paper train ticket. I assume they could link the ticket to my credit card but will they be able to obtain my personal details from the credit card company?

Credit card owner does not have to be person travelling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Credit card owner does not have to be person travelling.

Nor does the purchaser of an e-ticket, but it'll be assumed they are unless they can prove otherwise.

 

[doc7austin]

Nor does the purchaser of an e-ticket, but it'll be assumed they are unless they can prove otherwise.

Who is "they" ?

The British legal system is very interesting.

 

[renegademaster]

Who is "they" ?

The British legal system is very interesting.

The suspect

 

[doc7austin]

So, in the UK, it is like that?
If I buy a ticket at machine for a third person -> I am liable for all bad things this person is doing with that ticket?

Sorry, I do not believe that.

Another question:
We certainly differ between civil claim (by a TOC) and a state prosecution (by a DA)? In the answer, when you refer to prosecution, you refer to the first or latter process?

Not sure on your question - but what you need to know is that Chiltern Trains take the hardest line on fare evasion of all the national rail companies we see on this forum - with the most likely to prosecute. So whatever you do, evading fares of any sort in any way on Chiltern is a really bad idea.

In the UK the TOC are able to prosecute? Simply wow !

Nor does the purchaser of an e-ticket, but it'll be assumed they are unless they can prove otherwise.

Who is assuming that ?
The TOC ?
Or the judge in a criminal or civil court ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, in the UK, it is like that?
If I buy a ticket at machine for a third person -> I am liable for all bad things this person is doing with that ticket?

That's not the same thing.

If you buy a ticket at a machine for a third person the starting point for any investigation is that you're the person who used it. If you weren't, it shouldn't be hard to prove it wasn't you, e.g. an RPI will record a description of the person who presented it (increasingly a bodycam picture, I suspect), and it may not describe you.

Sorry, I do not believe that.

Another question:
We certainly differ between civil claim (by a TOC) and a state prosecution (by a DA)? In the answer, when you refer to prosecution, you refer to the firstt or latter process?

In the UK (other than Scotland in practice) anyone can institute a private criminal prosecution. So it's the latter but by the former.

 

[doc7austin]

That's not the same thing.

If you buy a ticket at a machine for a third person the starting point for any investigation is that you're the person who used it.

So it is just the TOC that is assuming something. Well, that assumption is nothing more than a private opinion.

If you weren't, it shouldn't be hard to prove it wasn't you,

Why would the "suspect" has to prove anything? Though I doubt that such cases ever the light of a court at all.

All in all, if we are talking about a criminal prosecution (not civil claim) that I think the "suspect" has also the right not to say anything. And the burden of proof falls solely on the shoulders of the DA.

e.g. an RPI will record a description of the person who presented it (increasingly a bodycam picture, I suspect), and it may not describe you.

How does the TOC know how a person XYZ looks like?

In the UK (other than Scotland in practice) anyone can institute a private criminal prosecution.

Well, everyone can certain initiate that a criminal prosecution. But the decision, whether and how to sanction the "suspect", is certainly not up to the TOC.

Honestly speaking, when reading through these fraud threads, I am seeing a lot of scaremongering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would the "suspect" has to prove anything? The suspect is just stating (if it goes to court) that it wasn't him/her, who was travelling. Though I doubt that such cases ever the light of a court at all.

I bet they do.

How does the TOC know how a person XYZ looks like?

They see them standing in a Court.

Honestly speaking, when reading through these fraud threads, I am seeing a lot of scaremongering.

Where are you located, is it Kyiv as per your profile? It sounds like you don't understand how the English legal system, and in particular the Single Justice Procedure, works.

I'm still of the view by the way that if this ticket was bought at a TVM and there was no Railcard there probably will be nothing comes of it because it goes into the "too much faff' box, but the TOC absolutely does have options.

 

[doc7austin]

They see them standing in a Court.

For such trivial cases a DA is dragging the suspect in front of a court?

 

[Bletchleyite]

For such trivial cases a DA is dragging the suspect in front of a court?

What's a DA, sorry?

But aside from that yes, if you plead not guilty you will get your day in Court, as you are entitled to if accused of a criminal offence.

 

[doc7austin]

What's a DA, sorry?

Crown Prosecution Service

 

[Mike395]

Please can we keep threads in this forum relevant to assisting the OP rather than enquiring about the UK legal system. @doc7austin please start a new thread if you want to continue this line of conversation.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Crown Prosecution Service

That's known as CPS.

Whilst there are options open to TOC, I suspect @Bletchleyite is correct, it's far too much faff. The OP should consider it a very lucky escape & ensure they pay the correct fare each & everytime from now on.

 

[jumble]

If they have the ticket they can find out details of the owner of the credit card used to buy it surely? Though it would have been simpler just to get your details off you.

What did you do for a ticket for that journey, once the first one had been confiscated?

Ah. If they took the Railcard they will easily obtain the details from that.

If the person has changed address then what happens next ?
No one is obliged to tell a railcard issuer that they have moved unlike informing DVLA etc ?

 

[Criv]

I am thinking of working with a solicitor to come forward and request to settle out of court. I have been doing this for a number of months and really don’t want the stress of having to look over my shoulder. Is this a bad idea?

 

[Criv]

Having a look at my bank statements, I stupidly have done about 100 return trips over about 18 months. I spoke to Manak Solictors today who have said that there is a possibility that was scaremonger from the inspector but said that they very well have the ability to obtain personal details from a paper ticket linked to credit card. They have given me very high confidence that proactively coming forward would settle out of court

 

[Brissle Girl]

Ok, thanks as that is very interesting info re getting personal information simply from a paper ticket and credit card details.

In terms of settling OOC, you need to take those 200 single journeys and look up the full anytime single fare for the complete journey. That’s the possible amount you would be asked to pay, along with an admin fee, which could be higher than average, due to the work involved.

 

[Iskra]

Having a look at my bank statements, I stupidly have done about 100 return trips over about 18 months. I spoke to Manak Solictors today who have said that there is a possibility that was scaremonger from the inspector but said that they very well have the ability to obtain personal details from a paper ticket linked to credit card. They have given me very high confidence that proactively coming forward would settle out of court

Don't panic. This course of action may not be the wisest, as you would be incriminating yourself and a settlement for 100+ journeys would be vast, which you'd be left with little choice but to pay as you could otherwise face a severe penalty.

I would wait to see if anything comes of it first, before rushing to incriminate yourself, avoiding a lot of the hard work for Chiltern in the process. There is a chance that they are bluffing and just trying to deter you without putting in vast amounts of effort and work to achieve a formal outcome.

With that many questionable journeys on your account, it would be wise to make sure you are 'whiter than white' going forwards to avoid a small mishap bringing your previous conduct to the attention of the authorities.

 

[Criv]

Apart from the cost in coming forward before receiving a letter, is there anything else I should be aware of proactively coming forward?

 

[Iskra]

Apart from the cost in coming forward before receiving a letter, is there anything else I should be aware of proactively coming forward?

If you come forward, you have a 100% chance of being in deep bother. If you do nothing and wait, you have perhaps a 25% chance of being in deep bother. Being open and honest at this point, probably isn't going to help your cause, I would give your position some serious thought over at least 48 hours before taking any action.

 

[Benjwri]

Apart from the cost in coming forward before receiving a letter, is there anything else I should be aware of proactively coming forward?

Given these tickets were purchased via TVM, rather than an online retailer, it is vastly less likely they will realise the extent of your fare evasion. If you come forward and admit to 100+ counts of fare evasion, I rather think your chances of it not going to court are rather slim with Chiltern. The significant sum of cases will look very badly against your favour. If you came forward while instructing a lawyer you have a better chance, but also will be spending thousands in the end most likely.