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ticket confusion re off-peak ticket sold by thetrainline.com

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JamesDrew

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I bought a ticket from thetrainline.com for a journey: Raynes Park to Preston, via Vauxhall and Euston. The journey schedule (from thetrainline.com) is to depart from Raynes Park at 09:28 to make the connections, but the ticket is an 'off peak return'. Will I need to use contactless for the first leg of my journey (i.e. to Vauxhall) because it's before 09:30, despite my ticket and schedule being the recommended journey when I made the purchase?
Thank you for any advice
 
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Peter Mugridge

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If it's one through ticket with the cross London facility, you can use it to travel up to London at any time prior to the normal off peaks hours as long as you do not use it to depart London before the restrictions say you can.
 

Gaelan

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For anyone else wanting to investigate, I believe this is the fare in question, and this is the service in question.

It's not entirely clear to me why it would be valid (unless you're traveling at the weekend?), but in any case, I believe you're allowed to travel on an itinerary issued along with your ticket even if it "shouldn't" be valid.
 

jfollows

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An off-peak return Raynes Park to Preston has restriction code 9I, which can be seen in detail at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/9i/

In particular,
Not valid on trains timed to depart:

  • London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45 (Restrictions do not apply on Fridays)
There are no restrictions on your departure time from Raynes Park.

Every ticket has a restriction code, and the restriction code specifies when the ticket may or may not be used. There is no blanket "not before 09:30" restriction, if that is what the original poster (and others) is thinking.

In addition, if a retailer such as trainline.com issues an itinerary against a ticket then the trains shown in the itinerary are valid for travel, regardless of whether or not the rules have been interpreted correctly.
 

Gaelan

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There are no restrictions on your departure time from Raynes Park.
Here's the bit I'm not sure about. 9I also lists the restriction:
Not valid on trains timed to depart:
  • Clapham Junction after 04:29 and before 09:30;
And the train from Raynes Park calls at Clapham Junction twice: once at 08:40, before OP boards, and once at 09:40, after OP boards. I have no idea how that gets interpreted. But in any case, this is all academic, as OP has been issued an itinerary.
 

JamesDrew

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An off-peak return Raynes Park to Preston has restriction code 9I, which can be seen in detail at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/9i/

In particular,

There are no restrictions on your departure time from Raynes Park.

Every ticket has a restriction code, and the restriction code specifies when the ticket may or may not be used. There is no blanket "not before 09:30" restriction, if that is what the original poster (and others) is thinking.

In addition, if a retailer such as trainline.com issues an itinerary against a ticket then the trains shown in the itinerary are valid for travel, regardless of whether or not the rules have been interpreted correctly.

Thank you. I had (wrongly) thought there was a blanket 'not before 09:30' restriction, particularly because on a previous journey (to Derby if it makes a difference) the gate wouldn't let me through at around 09:15 and the staff member said it was because my ticket was off-peak return (and he also wouldn't let me through).
 

jfollows

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Thank you. I had (wrongly) thought there was a blanket 'not before 09:30' restriction, particularly because on a previous journey (to Derby if it makes a difference) the gate wouldn't let me through at around 09:15 and the staff member said it was because my ticket was off-peak return (and he also wouldn't let me through).
The problem can be that staff are poorly trained, or simply invent restrictions which are untrue because they think they ought to be true. Just make sure you have your itinerary to hand in case of any confusion.

It looks as if the "not before 09:30 from Clapham Junction" restriction may be implemented, but that's not applicable to your departure from Raynes Park because you won't reach Clapham Junction until after 09:30.

Here's the bit I'm not sure about. 9I also lists the restriction:

And the train from Raynes Park calls at Clapham Junction twice: once at 08:40, before OP boards, and once at 09:40, after OP boards. I have no idea how that gets interpreted. But in any case, this is all academic, as OP has been issued an itinerary.
I fiddled around a bit and it seems that the Clapham "not before 09:30" restriction may be implemented, even though it's silly in this case, but even if it is it's not applicable to this journey.

PS No help to the OP, but this looks like another case where the old "network rule" solved the problem by allowing travel into London from "Network SouthEast" and only applying time restrictions to the long-distance legs of the journey. Now it's a mess, and if restrictions on Clapham Junction departures before 09:30 on the local leg are being applied, that's a backward step, but presumably because the restrictions now have to be applied in a brainless and systematic manner.

PPS Actually I can get an off-peak return on the 08:28 departure from Raynes Park also, which is good, onto the 09:30 from Euston. So I don't know if the "Clapham Junction" restriction plays any part.
 
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Hadders

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The ticket is valid but in might not work the ticket gates at Raynes Park. Just ask to be let through manually.
 

Alex365Dash

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PPS Actually I can get an off-peak return on the 08:28 departure from Raynes Park also, which is good, onto the 09:30 from Euston. So I don't know if the "Clapham Junction" restriction plays any part.
It’ll be because electronic restrictions are only applied to the station OP boards and alights each train as well as the train’s terminus.

There is no restriction on arriving into Waterloo on the outbound journey, hence the electronic restrictions do not restrict the train OP can get into London.
 

jfollows

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It’ll be because electronic restrictions are only applied to the station OP boards and alights each train as well as the train’s terminus.

There is no restriction on arriving into Waterloo on the outbound journey, hence the electronic restrictions do not restrict the train OP can get into London.
Good, thank you for the clarification, that's as it should be I'm sure.
 

yorkie

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Thank you. I had (wrongly) thought there was a blanket 'not before 09:30' restriction, particularly because on a previous journey (to Derby if it makes a difference) the gate wouldn't let me through at around 09:15 and the staff member said it was because my ticket was off-peak return (and he also wouldn't let me through).
Gateline staff were incorrect; if you have been inconvenienced by gateline staff, please do complain and let us know the outcome.

If you had to pay extra, you are due a refund.

If your journey was delayed, you are due compensation.

If you used the forum site to purchase, I would be happy to help if required.
 

JamesDrew

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Gateline staff were incorrect; if you have been inconvenienced by gateline staff, please do complain and let us know the outcome.

If you had to pay extra, you are due a refund.

If your journey was delayed, you are due compensation.

If you used the forum site to purchase, I would be happy to help if required.
Thanks to Yorkie and everyone else for the replies. To update, neither the barrier nor the gateline staff let me through initially, but thanks to this forum I had the confidence to challenge the staff refusal by showing my itinerary and saying the ticket was off peak from Euston, not Raynes Park. I was then somewhat reluctantly let through the gate.
I suspect many people who don’t know the minutiae of ticketing would have just resorted to accepting that the ticket wasn’t valid for the first part of the journey and purchasing an additional ticket or using contactless (as I have done previously).
I’m not sure what the answer is, whether it’s a simpler fare structure, further training of gateline staff and programming of the gates, or a continuation of the status quo.
 

jfollows

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Well done, and I'm pleased you succeeded in the use of a completely valid ticket despite the obstacles placed in your path to prevent you from doing so.

My thinking is that the answer is proper training, and not the attitude that the passenger is always wrong and that railway staff should make up the rules according to what they think they ought to be, which is what we have today. Clearly not all staff by any means, but presumably a large number of gateline stafff who probably don't do the job for long and don't care about doing a good job, that's how it appears anyway.
Secondly, reform the fares system properly and fairly. That's not happening.
Then, finally, think about reducing the number of front-line staff and replacing them with a simple a logical fares system that everyone can understand and which can be implemented through ticket machines.
This isn't happening.
So in the meantime it's our pleasure to help people like you who ask for advice here, and I'm pleased that it worked this time. As you say, many people would have given up in the face of untruths told them by railway staff because they didn't have the courage of their convictions to stand up to them.
 
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yorkie

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I’m not sure what the answer is, whether it’s a simpler fare structure....
That would be for discussion in another thread, but in summary it would result in more split ticketing being required to bring costs down.
... further training of gateline staff....
Is the right answer, along with...
and programming of the gates
...would also be good too.

In most jobs, such incompetence wouldn't be accepted, but at train companies, well....
 

Snow1964

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I am glad you got through, but feel it is a dreadful state of affairs that staff manning the barriers also didn't want to let you through.

Should never be customer is automatically wrong and therefore should be treated like an outcast and criminal serial faredodger, until they can argue the rules better than the staff. Should be staff apologise first, then clarify, then confirm it's valid, never wait until customer proves validity

I am not sure who trained them to take the attitude that the barriers are programmed correctly for all ticket types when they know they aren't (actually barriers should let valid tickets through, being set up for common tickets only is just lazy), but that is for different thread
 

jfollows

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It's an appalling state of affairs, I agree with everyone above.

People are buying tickets in good faith, which are being issued correctly, and then they're turning up to use their tickets and being told that they're invalid.

Now, I accept that the way the railway fares system has evolved is unusual, but these people are trained and paid to do a job, and they're simply not doing their jobs properly.

It's also a sad state of affairs when enthusiastic amateurs like me know more than the people who are paid to do a job do. Yes, I've been a student of rail fares for many years and it's been a subject that's interested me for self-serving purposes (so that I can get a good deal) for a long time, but that's not good enough.

I'm not sure what can be done about this. There must be many people who don't feel confident in standing their ground, even though they're using a valid ticket properly. On another thread we have someone being denied the existence of an all-line Rover ticket by station staff.

I don't think anyone in the industry cares, and that's appalling. Other commentators have noted this - nobody cares about doing things properly on the railway any more. Of course, that's not true, there are many examples of people posting here who work for the railways who clearly do care, but even they are increasingly frustrated by what's going on.

I'm sad because I've always wanted to do my job to the best of my ability and to do it properly and to serve my customers in the best possible way I could. I have never worked for the railways, but it was clear in the "good old days" of the 1970s that most staff took pride in doing a job well. Sadly, that seems increasingly less the case today, and I'm disappointed if not surprised.
 

yorkie

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...I don't think anyone in the industry cares, and that's appalling....
There are plenty who do, but they are powerless to prevent these sort of incidents happening; the rest of your post seems spot-on, at least as far as I know (I wouldn't know about how things compare to the 1970s but I think that would be best discussed in History & Nostalgia anyway!)
 

jfollows

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There are plenty who do, but they are powerless to prevent these sort of incidents happening; the rest of your post seems spot-on, at least as far as I know (I wouldn't know about how things compare to the 1970s but I think that would be best discussed in History & Nostalgia anyway!)
Yes, you're right to pick me up on this point.
I had a perfectly pleasant day today, I had a Cheshire Day Ranger and went to Liverpool, and where it didn't work in the barriers (Liverpool James Street) I had no problem with the local staff.
Is there anything we can collectively do to help here? Other than offering advice as we willingly do?
 
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