Ticket machines and off-peak fares

[4SRKT]

This morning at 09:29 I went to buy a CDR from Shipley to Morley. The only option available was the Anytime Day Return at £5.50. I naturally waited a minute and bought an Off-Peak one for £3.70.

Had I not known that in a few seconds the machine would sell me a ticket costing £1.80 less, I may very well have bought the more expensive ticket. The previous train from Shipley to Leeds had been at 09:14, so for 16 minutes the machine was charging too much to anyone travelling to Leeds or beyond on the 09:39. I also noticed that after 09:30 the machine continued to offer the Anytime ticket, even though there would be no further periods during that day when the off-peak ticket could not be used.

Would it not be possible for the machine to stop offering Anytime tickets as soon as the last train on which they need to be used? Is it not some form of fraud for Northern to fail to offer this through its machines? At best it is dishonesty. Also, why would the Anytime ticket continue to be offered at times when the Off-peak version is valid, unless there is a hope that some confused passengers may mistakenly buy the wrong one?

 

[wintonian]

This morning at 09:29 I went to buy a CDR from Shipley to Morley. The only option available was the Anytime Day Return at £5.50. I naturally waited a minute and bought an Off-Peak one for £3.70.

Had I not known that in a few seconds the machine would sell me a ticket costing £1.80 less, I may very well have bought the more expensive ticket. The previous train from Shipley to Leeds had been at 09:14, so for 16 minutes the machine was charging too much to anyone travelling to Leeds or beyond on the 09:39. I also noticed that after 09:30 the machine continued to offer the Anytime ticket, even though there would be no further periods during that day when the off-peak ticket could not be used.

Would it not be possible for the machine to stop offering Anytime tickets as soon as the last train on which they need to be used? Is it not some form of fraud for Northern to fail to offer this through its machines? At best it is dishonesty. Also, why would the Anytime ticket continue to be offered at times when the Off-peak version is valid, unless there is a hope that some confused passengers may mistakenly buy the wrong one?

Yes this does occasionally crop up here and I think it has been unanimously agreed that TVM's should sell off-peak tickets sometime before they become valid.

In reality though they would have to be available at any-time due to the various different restrictions making it impossible to have them available 15 minutes before off-peak for example.

 

[LexyBoy]

Would it not be possible for the machine to stop offering Anytime tickets as soon as the last train on which they need to be used? Is it not some form of fraud for Northern to fail to offer this through its machines? At best it is dishonesty. Also, why would the Anytime ticket continue to be offered at times when the Off-peak version is valid, unless there is a hope that some confused passengers may mistakenly buy the wrong one?

I think you answered your own question there

It would be slightly more complex to program it, but the software successfully hides the CDR until it is valid, so doing the reverse to the SDR wouldn't be so hard.

 

[4SRKT]

Yes this does occasionally crop up here and I think it has been unanimously agreed that TVM's should sell off-peak tickets sometime before they become valid.

In reality though they would have to be available at any-time due to the various different restrictions making it impossible to have them available 15 minutes before off-peak for example.

On a route by route basis would it not be sensible to programme the machines to sell off-peak tickets as soon as the last peak train is due to go? Therefore at Shipley off-peak tickets for Leeds and beyond would become available at 09:14, but tickets for the Skipton direction not until 09:19, Ilkley 09:23 etc.

 

[wintonian]

I think you answered your own question there

It would be slightly more complex to program it, but the software successfully hides the CDR until it is valid, so doing the reverse to the SDR wouldn't be so hard.

It wouldn't be quite so much of a problem if they did, unfortunately a TVM programmed to prevent off-peak fares until say 09:30 means that a ticket valid from 08:45 can't be sold thus discouraging purchases. until it has been valid for 45 minutes.

This is a problem I encounter thinking I can just turn up at the station 10mins before the train I wish to get then finding out that I have completely forgotten that the TVM will not sell me the relevant ticket and spending 15mins in the ticket office queue instead.

 

[shinkansen1966]

It wouldn't be quite so much of a problem if they did, unfortunately a TVM programmed to prevent off-peak fares until say 09:30 means that a ticket valid from 08:45 can't be sold thus discouraging purchases. until it has been valid for 45 minutes.

This is a problem I encounter thinking I can just turn up at the station 10mins before the train I wish to get then finding out that I have completely forgotten that the TVM will not sell me the relevant ticket and spending 15mins in the ticket office queue instead.

This is why I buy tickets online and collect at the station. Although you have to buy at least 2 hour prior to travel.

 

[4SRKT]

This is why I buy tickets online and collect at the station. Although you have to buy at least 2 hour prior to travel.

My spur of the moment decision to park at the station and use the train, taken having already set off, wouldn't have happened in this case! Northern's TVMs don't do TOD anyway.

What would have happened at Bradford Forster Square, where my train originated? It left there at 09:31, with only 60 seconds of validity of the correct fare on the machine.

 

[cuccir]

It is a problem, and I can see the arguments both for and against this. I've no idea how smart TVMs are and whether they are programmable to to show the off-peak tickets (say) after the scheduled departure of the last 'train on which a peak ticket is required for that particular flow' (people shout if you say 'peak train' ). As always, it could be worth writing to the TOC and see if they can get them to appear early - the worst they can do is say 'no'

 

[wintonian]

This is why I buy tickets online and collect at the station. Although you have to buy at least 2 hour prior to travel.

I have considered this but unfortunately i fear it will only serve to encourage those TOC's that believe staffed ticket offices are unnecessary and redundant in a modern faceless society.

 

[4SRKT]

Some sort of message appearing at maybe 09:00 on the screen saying that at 09:30 the machine will start to sell the lower price ticket might cover all bases TBF. Not a lot of reprogamming here I don't suppose since the machine can clearly show different things depending on what time it is.

 

[wintonian]

Some sort of message appearing at maybe 09:00 on the screen saying that at 09:30 the machine will start to sell the lower price ticket might cover all bases TBF. Not a lot of reprogamming here I don't suppose since the machine can clearly show different things depending on what time it is.

SWT ones do if you select buy tickets for tomorrow.

The problem is that you can't buy tickets for today. :roll:

 

[shinkansen1966]

I have considered this but unfortunately i fear it will only serve to encourage those TOC's that believe staffed ticket offices are unnecessary and redundant in a modern faceless society.

I know that I'm only encouraging the TOCs to make further staff cuts. I also dislike using TVM as I'm not always convinced that I'm getting the best deals.

In fact, the only time I buy tickets face to face at a counter is when I have rail vouchers to cash.

 

[LexyBoy]

People who aren't au fait with ticketing matters can very easily get a bad deal when buying online as well as at TVMs.

Online sales are better in that they clearly show which tickets are available, but the most appropriate fare is not always shown (Rovers/Rangers for one example). Earlier today I was checking a journey on NRE which showed the return fare (displaying "Off Peak" return fares) as £44 but looking at the selected tickets showed that it was selecting two AP singles at £22 each (almost all trains were priced at £22). This could easily be missed by someone who clicks through to buy and is sold heavily restricted tickets for the price of an effectively unrestricted (it was at the weekend) ticket.

I always buy at the ticket office unless there's a long queue and I need a simple ticket, and encourage others to do the same.

It wouldn't be quite so much of a problem if they did, unfortunately a TVM programmed to prevent off-peak fares until say 09:30 means that a ticket valid from 08:45 can't be sold thus discouraging purchases. until it has been valid for 45 minutes.

Indeed, this is more of an issue. I wasn't thinking very clearly I think - not sure how TVMs determine when to sell Off Peak tickets.

 

[lyesbkz]

If this happens in a PF area, and a ticket office is closed but the TVM is available, could one argue that they did not purchase any ticket because the machine would not sell them the ticket they required (some form of Off-Peak ticket)?

 

[4SRKT]

At Shipley this morning only one window was open (again :roll and the queue was almost out of the door. Some knob was wanting to buy a 16-25 Railcard at one of the busiest times of day, which didn't help move things along. The queue for the TVM was also considerable, but went down a lot more quickly (presumably purely with people buying more expensive tickets than they needed to).

 

[button_boxer]

The usual argument in a PF area is that you should buy some ticket from the machine to cover at least part of your journey and then part-exchange that on the train against the ticket you really wanted. But this doesn't help if I wanted, say, an off-peak day return from Derby to Chesterfield (the next stop) at a time when the machine will only sell me an Anytime as there's no ticket cheaper than the one I really need to buy that can be bought from the machine and will cover any of the journey I want to make.

(this is a hypothetical example, I know that in this particular case the off-peak would be available from 09:00 and the first train on which it is valid is 09:18)

 

[LexyBoy]

If this happens in a PF area, and a ticket office is closed but the TVM is available, could one argue that they did not purchase any ticket because the machine would not sell them the ticket they required (some form of Off-Peak ticket)?

One could, but NRCoC 3 stipulates that in such circumstances a ticket for "part of the journey" or a Permit to Travel must be purchased, so it would be a difficult argument to win.

What one is supposed to do when the only tickets offered are more expensive than the ticket wanted is not explained.

 

[wintonian]

One could, but NRCoC 3 stipulates that in such circumstances a ticket for "part of the journey" or a Permit to Travel must be purchased, so it would be a difficult argument to win.

What one is supposed to do when the only tickets offered are more expensive than the ticket wanted is not explained.

Or as has been mentioned before you wish to buy a ticket to the next station?

 

[island]

One could, but NRCoC 3 stipulates that in such circumstances a ticket for "part of the journey" or a Permit to Travel must be purchased, so it would be a difficult argument to win.

What one is supposed to do when the only tickets offered are more expensive than the ticket wanted is not explained.

You are supposed to be refunded the difference between what you paid and what you should have paid in that case. Whether that will happen in reality, I don't know. Same if you overpay for a permit to travel.

 

[MikeWh]

But you can't be forced to over pay; what happens if you don't meet any revenue people on your journey?

 

[4SRKT]

And presumably refunding entails filling in some form or another and sticking it in the post.

 

[lyesbkz]

And presumably refunding entails filling in some form or another and sticking it in the post.

Will the postage also be refunded? If not, "why should I have to pay almost half a pound to get a refund of money I should never have had to pay to begin with"?

 

[WelshBluebird]

But you can't be forced to over pay; what happens if you don't meet any revenue people on your journey?

Or indeed what if you physically could not afford to overpay (only having the actual amount of money you need on you). Not a likely situation, but one that is indeed possible.
It is things like this that annoy me about the rules though. They are stacked hugely in favour of the railways, and hugely against the genuine passenger.

 

[Markdvdman]

Ticket machines are restrictive beyond belief!

However, programming is EASY IF the data they get is providied. Without trains being able to pass on the info, how can they be?

What if a peak train is so late - it becomes off peak? I know this may seem ludicrous, but programming it is a monstrosity that without data being sent to the machine it simply is impossible to program for barring some clever intelligence maybe with an xbox360 kinetic sensor?????

I still find it crazy that rail staff on the trains do NOT know the cheapest options available like I do.

Somebody asks for a single from Llanelli to Cardiff - they sell a straight single or return. The cheapest way is a single Llanelli to Gowerton, then Gowerton to Cardiff and same applies for returns! Likewise Merthyr to Swansea. The cheapest is Merthyr to Bridgend and Bridgend to Swansea in singles/returns.

I do not understand why guards do not know these combinations - and it is not difficult to work out!

Are they prevented tpo find the cheapest way? This I do not believe as I have heard guards touting the cheapest merthyr - swansea return being a single ticket or direct return when it is not! I feel like saying something but I would be undermining them - should I say something in future? I do not want to make a guard feel small?????

 

[wintonian]

Ticket machines are restrictive beyond belief!

However, programming is EASY IF the data they get is providied. Without trains being able to pass on the info, how can they be?

What if a peak train is so late - it becomes off peak? I know this may seem ludicrous, but programming it is a monstrosity that without data being sent to the machine it simply is impossible to program for barring some clever intelligence maybe with an xbox360 kinetic sensor?????

I still find it crazy that rail staff on the trains do NOT know the cheapest options available like I do.

Somebody asks for a single from Llanelli to Cardiff - they sell a straight single or return. The cheapest way is a single Llanelli to Gowerton, then Gowerton to Cardiff and same applies for returns! Likewise Merthyr to Swansea. The cheapest is Merthyr to Bridgend and Bridgend to Swansea in singles/returns.

I do not understand why guards do not know these combinations - and it is not difficult to work out!

Are they prevented tpo find the cheapest way? This I do not believe as I have heard guards touting the cheapest merthyr - swansea return being a single ticket or direct return when it is not! I feel like saying something but I would be undermining them - should I say something in future? I do not want to make a guard feel small?????

I suspect TOC's staff are prevented from informing passengers of splits like this in order to protect their revenue.

They have no obligation to advise a passenger of appropriate splits for example, their only obligation is to sell the passenger the tickets requested as long as they are appropriate (I assume) for the journey the passenger that is traveling intends to make.

 

[calc7]

Ticket machines are restrictive beyond belief!

However, programming is EASY IF the data they get is providied. Without trains being able to pass on the info, how can they be?

What if a peak train is so late - it becomes off peak? I know this may seem ludicrous, but programming it is a monstrosity that without data being sent to the machine it simply is impossible to program for barring some clever intelligence maybe with an xbox360 kinetic sensor?????

I still find it crazy that rail staff on the trains do NOT know the cheapest options available like I do.

Somebody asks for a single from Llanelli to Cardiff - they sell a straight single or return. The cheapest way is a single Llanelli to Gowerton, then Gowerton to Cardiff and same applies for returns! Likewise Merthyr to Swansea. The cheapest is Merthyr to Bridgend and Bridgend to Swansea in singles/returns.

I do not understand why guards do not know these combinations - and it is not difficult to work out!

Are they prevented tpo find the cheapest way? This I do not believe as I have heard guards touting the cheapest merthyr - swansea return being a single ticket or direct return when it is not! I feel like saying something but I would be undermining them - should I say something in future? I do not want to make a guard feel small?????

To address your points,

• A delayed train does not automatically become off-peak. It has been known, however, in times of significant disruption, for TOCs to relax their ticketing restrictions. It is very unlikely this would happen if the 0928 came in at 0933 (when 0930 was the end of the peak for that flow).
• Guards are not supposed to offer ticket splits, unless asked. Even then, as you're buying on the train, they'd be doing you a favour, and it is not a right. (Though if you'd boarded at an unstaffed station that does not have a TVM I believe you should have a far higher chance of success with the request).

 

[Markdvdman]

To address your points,

• A delayed train does not automatically become off-peak. It has been known, however, in times of significant disruption, for TOCs to relax their ticketing restrictions. It is very unlikely this would happen if the 0928 came in at 0933 (when 0930 was the end of the peak for that flow).
• Guards are not supposed to offer ticket splits, unless asked. Even then, as you're buying on the train, they'd be doing you a favour, and it is not a right. (Though if you'd boarded at an unstaffed station that does not have a TVM I believe you should have a far higher chance of success with the request).

I guessed this was the case, but in such a terrible economic era, is this right do you feel? We can argue till the cows come home, but a lot of passengers do not know the tricks that you and I do? I feel it is grossly unfair!

 

[wintonian]

To address your points,

• A delayed train does not automatically become off-peak. It has been known, however, in times of significant disruption, for TOCs to relax their ticketing restrictions. It is very unlikely this would happen if the 0928 came in at 0933 (when 0930 was the end of the peak for that flow).
• Guards are not supposed to offer ticket splits, unless asked. Even then, as you're buying on the train, they'd be doing you a favour, and it is not a right. (Though if you'd boarded at an unstaffed station that does not have a TVM I believe you should have a far higher chance of success with the request).

In this case it does become a right as long as there was no way to buy the ticket requested at the station you boarded at.

However certainly in the case of splits where the first ticket to be used has an origin of the boarding station you would need to buy this if possible and purchases any further tickets needed to complete your journey before the said ticket expires or at the station where it expires before joining another train, unless the next ticket you wanted could not be purchased in which case we go back to step 1.

I can't really think how to explain it in a clear and simple way but I'm sure ATOC know what I mean.

 

[Greenback]

I guessed this was the case, but in such a terrible economic era, is this right do you feel? We can argue till the cows come home, but a lot of passengers do not know the tricks that you and I do? I feel it is grossly unfair!

It's not so much fair/unfair as realistic. Staff can't be expected to know every split on every route that they may work, and there is also the argument that if someone else happens to know of an even cheaper way of doing it, staff could be criticised for not offering that option as well.

Even the very knowledgeable experts on this forum can't guarantee that a particular fare is the cheapest, as witnessed in just about every fares thread!

 

[34D]

On a route by route basis would it not be sensible to programme the machines to sell off-peak tickets as soon as the last peak train is due to go? Therefore at Shipley off-peak tickets for Leeds and beyond would become available at 09:14, but tickets for the Skipton direction not until 09:19, Ilkley 09:23 etc.

Shipley-Peterborough is 'off peak' from 04:30 though. That said, surely it is possible to program all.... Tries to recall logic from many years ago...

Look up current station-destination in table, and took up restriction codes for all tickets (let's assume, anytime, cheap day return and supersaver return). For current station, read start times for each ticket.

Note current time and read timetable if 'last train of previous restriction < current time < first train of new restriction then offer that ticket

Do we have any computer guys on here who could try a better attempt?

The whole TVM offering needs an overhaul in my opinion.

The first screen should be to input destination - the next screen should give options and explanations, ie
Single £83 one way, available now
Single £62 one way, available from 09:30
Return £84 available now, return journey anytime within a month
Return £63 available from 09:30, return journey any day within a month from 09:00 mon-fri any time at weekend
Return £42 available between 10:00 and 16:30 or after 19:00, return before 16:30 or after 19:00 same day
Return £30 route birmingham available from 09:30, return journey any day within a month from 09:00 mon-fri any time at weekend

Next screen is whether a railcard is held, and how many people, then last screen payment choice