Ticket Machines & Card Payments

[duncombec]

The speed of processing card payments on Ticketer machines has come up across in various threads now, most recently in the messages that were (reasonably) removed for off-topicality in the "peril" thread yesterday. I posed the question I pose again here, but there were also some interesting snippets from other members - @richw commented that the machines have to detect the presence of a card before the driver can select card as a payment option, whilst another poster (apologies, I can't remember who) mentioned differing orders of action depending on which payment method can be used (although that may not have been Ticketer machines).

Personally, I find the speed of processing to be well in line with other contactless payments - e.g. self-service tills and in shops - and certainly faster than PIN-entry or cash payment. Quite often, the ticket has printed before I can get my card back in my wallet, so I tend to take both in my hand and put them away once seated. The issue, though, seems to be with selecting the method of payment.

It seems to me that it ought to be possible for operators to set contactless as the default payment method for the machines (so that the machine can catch up while passengers are fishing coins out of receptacles), and if it isn't, it ought to be possible for Ticketer to upgrade the software accordingly so that choice is available (after all, if you can make one the standard and the other as an option, why can't you just swap the option to standard and standard to option?). Does anyone know if this is indeed possible, or if it is intended to be at some point? Whilst it may have made sense for cash to be the default when they were first introduced, the mass increase in contactless payment over the last few years now seems to make this setting a hindrance.

Does the speed at which the machine changes improve or decline over the course of the day (i.e. does the computer work faster if it's done it eight times already in the last ten minutes, or are they faster if there are fewer ticket options)?

Much about contactless payment has been done to death already (not always accurately, or 'I desire' ticklistery) in various other threads, but given there seems to be a misconception that it's just "slow drivers" that "don't notice how customers are paying", it may be useful for those of us who only see them from the "printer side" to hear some "screen side" or back-office experiences.

 

[James H]

When paying by card on Yellow Buses or More in Bournemouth (both use Ticketer) I am always unsure as to the correct time to place by card on the reader, and how this corresponds to what is shown on the passenger facing screen.

I think by default the screen says something like 'cash payment' and the driver has to choose the card option. But I always feel it's not as clear as it could be, and I hesitate as a result, which means the transaction takes longer than it needs to.

 

[43055]

I have never worked out when you should place the card the few times I have used contactless to get a ticket. Most of the time now I use the 'tap on tap off' which to me seems not different in speed than the mango cards before the Ticketer machines came along at trentbarton.

 

[SSmith2009]

We've got tap on tap off in Leicester and its so much easier to use

Shame the Leicester-Flexi zone doesn't cover the county area though

 

[darloscott]

On Ticketer machines the driver has to set the sale up as a standard cash fare then you stick your card on and it brings up ‘Issue by Card’ (or similar) which you then press. Shouldn’t take more than a second or two to change to a card payment.
The main problem with this is if you’re using the shortcut screens - eg the list of fares for destinations you then have to go back to the main screen, set the ticket up and then issue on card which can be a bit fiddly.

 

[Ken H]

Surely the machine should detect whatever card/ticket the passenger puts on the reader. Only if the passenger starts to ask for a pay ticket should the driver have to do anything. Once the fare is agreed the passenger puts his credit/debit card on the reader and the machine does the rest. If the passenger wants to pay cash, then the driver should have a button on every relevant screen for 'pay cash'
NCTS, day passes, scholars passes etc just read and onto the next one.
Seems the software has been designed by someone who has never driven a bus!

 

[johncrossley]

Can't they install a standalone card reader between the driver and the door, so avoiding the need to place the card on top of the ticket machine?

 

[SSmith2009]

Can't they install a standalone card reader between the driver and the door, so avoiding the need to place the card on top of the ticket machine?

Ticketer machines can have them

Ours in Leicester have the extra machine for tap on tap off although they can be temperamental at times.

 

[py_megapixel]

Surely the machine should detect whatever card/ticket the passenger puts on the reader. Only if the passenger starts to ask for a pay ticket should the driver have to do anything. Once the fare is agreed the passenger puts his credit/debit card on the reader and the machine does the rest. If the passenger wants to pay cash, then the driver should have a button on every relevant screen for 'pay cash'

I believe this is how Stagecoach's machines work

 

[_toommm_]

I believe this is how Stagecoach's machines work

Stagecoach machines are really quick once the driver has selected the fare - it authorises in a second, whereas First machines take a good five or ten seconds from the driver selecting the fare to the ticket being printed. I do find it interesting though that they don't authenticate in real time, instead taking either 10p/£1 and then taking the full fare at a later point in the journey/in the day.

Ours in Leicester have the extra machine for tap on tap off although they can be temperamental at times.

I noted on one of my regular journeys in Leeds that when there's a driver changeover, naturally the driver has to log out of the ticket machine. This then disabled the tap-off reader, and the driver had to log back in to allow the passenger to tap off, which delayed everyone behind that passenger for a good minute.

 

[johntea]

I usually just rest my card on top of the reader as soon as I board and tell the driver where I want to go, then take it back off as soon as I hear the beep

...one thing I have always wondered is many cards will often block contactless until you've used a card reader and PIN entry every X transactions for security, how does that work on a bus as there would be no way to enter a PIN code!

It is annoying how bus smartphone apps only offer period tickets rather than bespoke 'A to B' although I guess by the time you've made a couple of journeys generally a day ticket works out the cheapest option anyway

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

...one thing I have always wondered is many cards will often block contactless until you've used a card reader and PIN entry every X transactions for security, how does that work on a bus as there would be no way to enter a PIN code!

Been caught out by that quite a few times - a right pain, especially when you then can't get to work on time as you've got to abandon the bus to run home, grab some change and then jump on the next service.

I now always carry around a small amount of "emergency bus fare cash" for that reason!

 

[Non Multi]

Been caught out by that quite a few times - a right pain, especially when you then can't get to work on time as you've got to abandon the bus to run home, grab some change and then jump on the next service.

I now always carry around a small amount of "emergency bus fare cash" for that reason!

Surely going to a 'hole in the wall' (ATM) and entering your pin would suffice? I regularly just do an account balance enquiry. No need to purchase anything.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm not expert in the field but, from Page 13 of the agreement between card issuers and public transport operators

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/UK-Finance-Contactless-Transit-EMV-Framework.pdf

The risk and liability agreement underpinning Model 1 is set out below.
Overview
• The customer is not verified at the point of payment (as this requires a Chip & PIN or signature verification).
• The card is checked as being valid (and not counterfeit) through the card- terminal interaction.
• Transit Operators can manage cards associated with insufficient funds through Deny Lists
• Hot lists at the terminal can be used to stop lost or stolen cards completing the purchase.
• Contactless only terminals should be online capable. Card counters do not trigger a PIN entry request for online capable, contactless only terminals.
• Card issuer fraud systems check for any unusual activity such as the same card identity being used in two geographically separate locations at around the same time.
• For authorised transactions the card issuer is liable for the full amount.

A payment on a bus ticket machine wouldn't be declined for want of a PIN entry (though it might be if the card is on the Deny list or has been reported lost or stolen).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I usually just rest my card on top of the reader as soon as I board and tell the driver where I want to go, then take it back off as soon as I hear the beep

Arriva Milton Keynes drivers tell you to remove it if you do that, it seems to confuse the machine into thinking it is an ENCTS pass. This specific flaw often causes some delay - the machine needs to be able to read it, see what it is and automatically select card payment if one is placed there. Alternatively the design needs to be changed to look more like a London machine in having a vertical card "target" with an obvious green light when it's time to present the card so people aren't pushed by the design to put a card on the shelf.

 

[Ken H]

Arriva Milton Keynes drivers tell you to remove it if you do that, it seems to confuse the machine into thinking it is an ENCTS pass. This specific flaw often causes some delay - the machine needs to be able to read it, see what it is and automatically select card payment if one is placed there. Alternatively the design needs to be changed to look more like a London machine in having a vertical card "target" with an obvious green light when it's time to present the card so people aren't pushed by the design to put a card on the shelf.

It must be rubbish software if it is confused between ENCTS and a credit card. A passenger should be able to put his card on the reader, say 'single to Little Papplewick' driver who then selects the fare and out pops the ticket.

 

[duncombec]

It must be rubbish software if it is confused between ENCTS and a credit card. A passenger should be able to put his card on the reader, say 'single to Little Papplewick' driver who then selects the fare and out pops the ticket.

Is it perhaps more likely the case that if you put the card on immediately, the machine goes into ENCTS reader mode (to speed up loading those passengers), and the driver then can't issue your fare until you remove it and then they can set the fare?

To call it useless software because it can't work out what card it's meant to be reading without a prompt is a bit like calling your phone useless because it can't work out which app you want to open of its own accord, surely?

The main problem with this is if you’re using the shortcut screens - eg the list of fares for destinations you then have to go back to the main screen, set the ticket up and then issue on card which can be a bit fiddly.

Aaahhhh, that explains why it appears some drivers get there faster than others or depends on the transaction. I assume for things like rover tickets (e.g. the Discovery), drivers already have to go via a menu screen so there are fewer steps to get to payment than if issuing a point to point fare.

Thanks to drivers/company staff so far who have shared their experiences!

 

[Ken H]

Is it perhaps more likely the case that if you put the card on immediately, the machine goes into ENCTS reader mode (to speed up loading those passengers), and the driver then can't issue your fare until you remove it and then they can set the fare?

To call it useless software because it can't work out what card it's meant to be reading without a prompt is a bit like calling your phone useless because it can't work out which app you want to open of its own accord, surely?


...

But the ticket machine isnt doing things of its own accord. someone has put a readable card on the reader. It should react accordingly. An interface where the driver has to tell the passenger to take his card off the reader and put it back agaain is rubbish.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

But the ticket machine isnt doing things of its own accord. someone has put a readable card on the reader. It should react accordingly. An interface where the driver has to tell the passenger to take his card off the reader and put it back agaain is rubbish.

Contactless devices and cards are totally different software from concessionary cards , so for the machine to be able to read then it needs to know what's being placed on to It.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it perhaps more likely the case that if you put the card on immediately, the machine goes into ENCTS reader mode (to speed up loading those passengers), and the driver then can't issue your fare until you remove it and then they can set the fare?

Only if the software sees "this isn't an ENCTS card" and freezes, rather than going "this isn't an ENCTS card, what else might it be?"

TfL's machines are capable of working out what a card is without having to ask the passenger to tell the driver and a button to be pressed. Thus Ticketer's could too.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Certainly for our machines, in order to issue a card fare, you have to first select the ticket as though you were issuing a cash fare, then get the passenger to place their card on the square. Once on the square, add anywhere between 0.3-2s before the ticketer recognises it, then the green “issue” button turns to a gold “pay by card”, at which point you press it, wait another 0.3-1s, it does the beep-y thing and the card gets charged and the ticket issued.

If the passenger were to put the payment card on before the fare was selected, it would give an error and you have to start again. If you press “issue” before it changes to pay by card, it issues it as a cash fare and you have to cancel it/take cash. Trust me, it’s a pain in the arse sometimes.

We also have little handheld ticketers which are about 5x as fast as the on bus/in office machines. Same process, just recognises the card’s presence a lot sooner

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly for our machines, in order to issue a card fare, you have to first select the ticket as though you were issuing a cash fare, then get the passenger to place their card on the square. Once on the square, add anywhere between 0.3-2s before the ticketer recognises it, then the green “issue” button turns to a gold “pay by card”, at which point you press it, wait another 0.3-1s, it does the beep-y thing and the card gets charged and the ticket issued.

That is an utterly terrible piece of design. Ticketer's machines have done well to get card acceptance at least available, but there is huge scope for this to be improved.

A much more sensible flow would be (assuming tap in tap out isn't happening):

1. Passenger boards and places card on machine
2. Passenger states destination
3. Driver selects it and presses "pay by card"
4. Machine displays a cancel button for the driver to press any time up to issue in case e.g. the passenger changes their mind and produces cash
5. Machine waits until the card has been recognised and read, and issues the ticket once it has

Obviously 1 and 2/3 in this case could be either way round, i.e. it'd work for the destination to be set up and pay by card pressed and then the passenger taps the card as per most card machines.

One does wonder if this was tested in the real world with real passengers prior to deployment.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Surely going to a 'hole in the wall' (ATM) and entering your pin would suffice? I regularly just do an account balance enquiry. No need to purchase anything.

In hindsight, that is indeed true, but funnily enough the idea had never crossed my mind, particularly the first few times where I assumed it was an issue with the ticket machine rather than my card.

 

[py_megapixel]

An extra facet of confusion is introduced when it it comes to card payments for products to be loaded onto a smartcard.

I believe some machines have an awkward procedure where you have to present the ITSO card (to verify that a card suitable for loading this product is present), then the payment card (to pay), then the ITSO card again (to actually load it). This is, to say the least, annoying.

 

[dodecahedron67]

An extra facet of confusion is introduced when it it comes to card payments for products to be loaded onto a smartcard.

I believe some machines have an awkward procedure where you have to present the ITSO card (to verify that a card suitable for loading this product is present), then the payment card (to pay), then the ITSO card again (to actually load it). This is, to say the least, annoying.

This is correct. ITSO > Product Select > Payment > ITSO Load

 

[Man of Kent]

I don't think anyone has launched a completely new ticket machine design since contactless became widespread. As a result everything has been an adaption rather than starting from scratch. I'd also say that what Ticketer and other systems have to do can't really be compared to London's flat fare system. It took London nearly two years (Dec 2012 to Sept 2014) to introduce variable contactless ticketing on the underground after it had made flat fare contactless available on buses. And TfL machines still don't recognise non-London ENCTS cards!

 

[WAB]

The reader really ought to be positioned outwards facing like London buses, and the tech needs to be introduced to make it instaneous. London Buses hoover up crowds and dwell times are minimal, whereas the variable dwell times in the provinces don't do the service any good.

 

[Goldfish62]

I noted on one of my regular journeys in Leeds that when there's a driver changeover, naturally the driver has to log out of the ticket machine. This then disabled the tap-off reader, and the driver had to log back in to allow the passenger to tap off, which delayed everyone behind that passenger for a good minute.

Best practice there is to allow all passengers to board and alight before logging off. Even that happens in London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reader really ought to be positioned outwards facing like London buses, and the tech needs to be introduced to make it instaneous. London Buses hoover up crowds and dwell times are minimal, whereas the variable dwell times in the provinces don't do the service any good.

Best practice there is to allow all passengers to board and alight before logging off. Even that happens in London.

Agreed with both. The mind boggles as to why provincial bus operators have such little interest in things that could speed their service up and so reduce their costs.

 

[Stan Drews]

Agreed with both. The mind boggles as to why provincial bus operators have such little interest in things that could speed their service up and so reduce their costs.

Why do you think they’ve developed mobile ticketing apps?

Oh yeah, cos it speeds up the service and reduces costs!