Ticket office closures

[MikeWM]

A local café has introduced a minimum spend of £15 for card transactions, blaming the processing fees. I haven't eaten there since, on my own I just don't spend enough to go to more than half of the minimum spend.

The newsagent on the platform at Ely (to keep it somewhat railway-related!) put a sign up in March saying 'after 20-something years' it will no longer accept cards for just buying a newspaper - so cash only! - due to the increased card processing fees.

I take the point made by those above that if only a tiny minority are paying cash then that effectively causes a maximum in costs for the retailer. But I'd argue in many cases that's their own fault for incentivising paying by card/contactless/app over the last N years - if the majority of people still paid in cash, they wouldn't have that problem. You don't need to put the conspiracy hat on to see that if you create a duopoly that everyone is dependent upon, that duopoly is going to try to take advantage of the situation - and it appears they have by massively increasing their fees. If there are no alternatives - at least not until something like Bitcoin is more widely accepted, if it ever is - then they're now stuck, in a way they never were with widespread acceptance of cash.

 

[Starmill]

You don't need to put the conspiracy hat on to see that if you create a duopoly that everyone is dependent upon, that duopoly is going to try to take advantage of the situation - and it appears they have by massively increasing their fees. If there are no alternatives - at least not until something like Bitcoin is more widely accepted, if it ever is - then they're now stuck, in a way they never were with widespread acceptance of cash.

Likely it is true that Visa and MasterCard are dominant in the market, as only PayPal and American Express really compete in e-payments and those are very partial indeed in where they're accepted, though the latter does seem to have gained ground. However, Visa and MasterCard may or may not be abusing their dominance in the market, or have done so in the past. This has actually been alleged and the Competition Appeal Tribunal are currently hearing a case against Mastercard and others: https://www.catribunal.org.uk/cases/12667716-walter-hugh-merricks-cbe

 

[HSTEd]

I unfortunately would be concerned about the possibility of this happening yes. The complete destaffing of the current single staffed stations is something I would certainly object to.


The government really really should be looking at funding for widening participation in basic bank accounts or prepaid cards to the unbanked / those currently ineligible for a bank account (e.g. no fixed address). I know HSBC were doing a trial with Shelter but it needs to be more comprehensive in scope.

We had that infrastructure but the state dismantled it. See the various Post Office banking solutions that have been done at various times.

It would probably be cheaper to reestablish that than do anything else.

ONly have to maintain one enormous network of branches all over the place rather than two partially overlapping ones.

 

[Starmill]

The newsagent on the platform at Ely (to keep it somewhat railway-related!) put a sign up in March saying 'after 20-something years' it will no longer accept cards for just buying a newspaper - so cash only! - due to the increased card processing fees.

Sounds like they're on dodgy ground with the card scheme rules. Usually it wouldn't be permitted to accept Visa and Mastercard in this way.

We had that infrastructure but the state dismantled it. See the various Post Office banking solutions that have been done at various times.

It would probably be cheaper to reestablish that than do anything else.

ONly have to maintain one enormous network of branches all over the place rather than two partially overlapping ones.

Many high street banks are still in the post office banking agreement. It's the only reason I still have my HSBC account, because cash deposits can be made for free at my post office around the corner, rather than paying a fee to do it through paypoint shops.

 

[Krokodil]

Weird. I have been in Sweden on multiple occasions since May and all the stations I used (large and small) had ticket machines on which no such notices were displayed. One refused to sell tickets to stations served by the next train (not to me, I already had one) which caused a prospective customer to ask everyone in sight for assistance, without success. There was no Pressbyran or other shop on the station or nearby. He did board the train ticketless when it arrived - no idea what happened then.

What sort of enforcement do the Swedes have? Are many/any stations barriered?

Sounds like they're on dodgy ground with the card scheme rules. Usually it wouldn't be permitted to accept Visa and Mastercard in this way.

Surely minimum spends aren't anything new

I suspect the savings from ceasing accepting cash across the entire network would run into millions per year at least, if not that then hundreds of thousands. Imagine the courier costs of collecting and processing cash from every booking office and cash-accepting TVM?

If I'm correct in this, it would be cheaper to allow everyone on some obscure branch line with a bad mobile signal (e.g. Conwy Valley, Far North) to travel entirely free than to continue acceptance. And it won't be that long before coverage is near universal anyway - Apple incorporating basic satphone features in the iPhone 14 indicates the way things are going.

I disagree, guards can take hundreds of pounds in cash each shift on the Conwy Valley. They all will be depositing the cash at either of two booking offices. As you say, once you've taken £1 across the depot, any more cash taken in all of the guard and booking office shifts for that half of the week only have a marginal cost.

 

[Starmill]

a friendly face, good customer service, extra help during times of disruption, experience; both of which can outweigh anything an online portal can offer

The issue is, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, though for whatever reason you refuse to acknowledge it, these things can all be offered by station staff whether or not they are working in a ticket office!

If you said that station staff could offer these things while ticket machines and apps alone never could, then everyone would be in agreement with you. However, saying that they're currently offered by ticket offices and wouldn't be offered were ticket offices to close is sadly incorrect.

As far as I have seen, is criticising you personally for your own vested interest in ticket offices. On a personal level, I think everyone would agree that role changes can be upsetting and need therefore to be handled sensitively and with care, and that you should hear all of the details before the public do. It'd be more persuasive of you if you didn't accuse others of bias without any evidence of that.

very quick to point the finger at the ticket office whenever there is a situation where it could be argued that the ticket clerks are in the wrong; even if it's open to debate

It's usually the company who are in the wrong, and not the individual personally. On rare occasions it may be, but unfortunately it's not really open to debate that ticket offices get basic things wrong.

 

[NeilCr]

Deep breath!

It’s a complex subject. Complicated a bit by a number of posters with deep understanding and knowledge of the ticketing systems. And by lots of scenarios

If I may add another one. My partner and I use Ramsgate Station. Quite a fair sized one ( to me anyway) apart from big city stations. Two ticket office windows - one TVM. Four platforms reached by an underpass from the main ticket hall/waiting area/Pumpkin/whatever

I am fine. I use e-tickets and get on with it. OTOH my partner is partially sighted

She doesn’t use the train much by herself but a couple of weeks back she did have to go on a local journey. She was eternally grateful to the ticket clerk who helped her with the ticket, the right platform and train times. She certainly would struggle hugely with a TVM

We live separately - obviously, I could help with e tickets but that wouldn’t always be possible and would eat into her independence

As it is she knows she can go straight to the ticket office. If it came to her having to find someone in the station to ask that would be more difficult. She was cross with me recently as I bought some new trainers. Up till then she knew it was me because of the distinctive pattern on the old ones! So locating the right person on a biggish station might be interesting

In the great scheme of things it’s not major. She doesn’t travel much by herself but taking away the ticket office would probably stop her completely. And that’s sad - there will be others like her - who, however much we say do this or do that - would be the same

That doesn’t strike me to be what a railway should be about

So (finally) at Ramsgate I could see the argument for only having one ticket window with the other person redeployed - helping out with the TVM(s) for example. But not doing away with the whole thing

I know from my previous experience of queueing there that a) people do have complicated questions (not necessarily about ticketing) b) they like dealing with a human being and c) they like a focal point to go directly to

Sorry for the length of this

 

[Mat17]

Although I use ticket offices still to purchase my tickets, I know I could fathom out how to use mobile tickets if needed (it wouldn't be my preference though). I can use TVMs but always worry I'm going to purchase the wrong ticket - so I only use them if I have to.

My parents, in their 70s would be sunk completely. They won't do any internet purchases or online banking. They still use cash machines to get statements etc. The will happily pay by card, but they were totally flummoxed by the TVM and needed me to help them.

Not everyone is computer or internet literate. My dad would happily book a journey by telephone call and pay that way if such a system existed. I personally can't think of anything worse that ordering by telephone, that'd be my last choice for any purchase, "press 1 for... etc). But they would never enter card details on the internet period. They would freely admit that they don't really understand it and would worry about having their details stolen. Are this generation therefore to be left out in the cold completely? Would re-deployed office staff actually help such potential passengers to purchase their tickets? If not, I guess my parents wouldn't bother using the trains ever again.

 

[weeklycommuter]

It's fairly common already, for example Gatwick Airport, Cambridge North, Oxford Parkway, Bond Street, Queenstown Road and Harrow & Wealdstone don't have a ticket office but I'd expect the ticket gates to be in use for nearly all departures.

Certainly in the cases of Gatwick Airport, Oxford Parkway and Cambridge North there's usually someone who can issue tickets available to assist. I would be quite surprised if that were ever the case at Bond Street or Harrow & Wealdstone though, and certainly it would very rarely be the case at Queenstown Road.

Greater Anglia informed me in writing that their staff at Cambridge North Station (operated by Greater Anglia) are only there to help with the use of the ticket vending machines so as I understand it Greater Anglia staff at Cambridge North Station cannot sell tickets not available on the ticket vending machines or provide any service (including the issue of a photocard) that requires a ticket office. Greater Anglia informed me that for any service or product that requires a ticket office the passenger must go to Cambridge Station or Ely Station instead as those stations have a ticket office. The only person I ever saw selling rail tickets at Cambridge North Station without using the ticket vending machines was a visiting member of Great Northern staff. Greater Anglia's management of Cambridge North Station is a textbook case of how not to persuade rail passengers that it is fine for their local station not to have a ticket office and how not to run a "station hosting" system.

Greater Anglia informed me in writing that their staff at Cambridge North Station (operated by Greater Anglia) are only there to help with the use of the ticket vending machines so as I understand it Greater Anglia staff at Cambridge North Station cannot sell tickets not available on the ticket vending machines or provide any service (including the issue of a photocard) that requires a ticket office. Greater Anglia informed me that for any service or product that requires a ticket office the passenger must go to Cambridge Station or Ely Station instead as those stations have a ticket office. The only person I ever saw selling rail tickets at Cambridge North Station without using the ticket vending machines was a visiting member of Great Northern staff. Greater Anglia's management of Cambridge North Station is a textbook case of how not to persuade rail passengers that it is fine for their local station not to have a ticket office and how not to run a "station hosting" system.

If this Government and train operators wish to persuade rail passengers to accept the closure of ticket offices at their local stations the one answer they must never give in response to enquiries about alternative ways to get products and services is "go to another station that has a ticket office". They must ensure that there is always a workable alternative to the use of a ticket office to get the products and services that rail passengers require.

 

[Parham Wood]

My passport renewal isn't due to next year but according to Thomas Cook you now pay a premium to renew if you don't want to apply online with a digital photo.

Everything You Need to Know About Passport Renewals | Thomas Cook Blog

Before you book your summer holiday you’ll need to ensure you have a passport that’s valid for your getaway.

www.thomascook.com

A little off topic but I renewed my driving licence recently on line and effectively I could use my passport photo. The system cross referenced to it and I got the new licence in about three days despite Swansea's backlog.

 

[Moderating team]

At the moment this thread seems to be based on speculation and is also drifting off topic so we will bring it to a close.

As soon as any formal announcement is made regarding ticket office closures we will start a new thread.

In the meantime thanks to all who contributed.