Ticket office closures

[Starmill]

If closing ticket offices saves money, what thing related to tixket offices will lead to the most savings?

Stations with multiple windows reducing the number of staff required. Some stations might be reduced to single person staffing. Other stations might have staffing hours extended. A small handful of stations might have an extra pair of ticket gates put in when the ticket office is removed, e.g. Warrington Central. This one is outrageous currently for queueing times so Northern really should be forced to add extra gates.

There's advantages and disadvantages for retailers for both methods. Some have chosen to become cashless, others don't want card payments.

The latter group is pretty small nowadays. The disadvantages of being cash only are substantial in 2023 in terms of your market access.

 

[island]

Why would I avoid them? I've got cash in my wallet, thanks.

I was responding to your comment, which was:

Some places (shock, horror) don't take ApplePay.

I’d wager more places don’t take cash than don’t take Apple Pay, in the UK at least.

But this has nothing to do with ticket offices, so I’ll stop there.

 

[AdamWW]

There are ticket offices where this is the case. However when RPIs turn up at the platform entrance the takings magically treble that shift.

Ah yes.

I remember some years ago nearly missing a train because the ticket office, which normally didn't have a queue, couldn't cope with the numbers who suddenly needed tickets as there were several people checking tickets on the way to the platform - even though they were also selling tickets from portable machines as well as checking.

It was quite eye opening.

(I'm pretty sure that the trains were DOO but if not, nobody ever came round to sell tickets, so they weren't planning on buying on the train).

On Android if you want to add your Barclaycard to your phone, you must use the Barclaycard app (not the Google Wallet), which then works the same way as a contactless Barclaycard, except it's on your phone.

Although I think this will be shut down on Friday, with the suggested replacement being to go back to using a plastic card (it appears that Google Wallet won't be an option).

 

[Starmill]

You do you, I'll do me and retailers, bars, restaurants should cater for both.

Why should they if one option involves lower costs and very few disbenefits? What are you going to do about it if that's what they want? I visit a huge number of hospitality businesses now that are cashless, including the GWR and TPE onboard catering services.

I’d wager more places don’t take cash than don’t take Apple Pay, in the UK at least.

Indeed. Maybe as recently as four years ago, the reverse would have been true. But nowadays it's so common to see a new bar, restaurant or takeaway food and beverage outlet start up that's cashless, while sadly many of the formerly cash only places have died out.

Although I think this will be shut down on Friday, with the suggested replacement being to go back to using a plastic card (it appears that Google Wallet won't be an option).

Bit odd that Barclaycard aren't going to support Google Wallet? Nearly all other cards do.

 

[northwichcat]

Although I think this will be shut down on Friday, with the suggested replacement being to go back to using a plastic card (it appears that Google Wallet won't be an option).

Do you have a source for that? I've not been told anything by them. Their website suggests Contactless Payment in the app is Visa only though: https://www.barclaycard.co.uk/personal/customer/barclaycard-app

 

[Bald Rick]

I like cash. I appreciate that you apparently don't. But why should I be forced to pay by other means because of people like yourself?

I have no problem with cash. I just find using phone / card much, much easier, quicker and safer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have no problem with cash. I just find using phone / card much, much easier, quicker and safer.

I'd be happy with things like booking offices and cash payments being retained if the increasingly tiny number of people wanting to use them are willing to pay extra to fund them, as I'm not. Nederlandse Spoorwegen offers a parallel here - they started charging EUR1 to use booking offices to buy a ticket you could have bought elsewhere about 15 years ago. Obviously people with relevant disabilities* excepted.

* e.g. being deaf isn't an excuse for not using a TVM, but being blind is.

 

[Silenos]

I do wonder if the personal security argument could be helped by offering preferential lease rates to businesses like convenience stores which will guarantee to stay open for long hours, allowing people somewhere to go if they feel unsafe and allowing e.g. toilets to stay open.

I wonder if the average convenience store proprietor is going to be willing to clean toilets, especially if that takes them away from the till?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if the average convenience store proprietor is going to be willing to clean toilets, especially if that takes them away from the till?

They'd not need to clean them, a contractor going round in a van covering many stations can do that, and already do at some TOCs. Their presence would deter crime and vandalism in them - that's the reason they are normally closed when booking offices are closed.

 

[Dave91131]

It doesn't help if the required ticket isn't available at a TVM though, such as an Anglia Plus. I'm still not sure what I'm *supposed* to do when turning up at a barriered, penalty fare station, where the ticket office is closed (or non-extant) and the TVM doesn't sell the desired ticket

What do the National Rail Conditions of Carriage state someone **should** do when faced with this scenario?

In addition, what do the National Rail Conditions of Carriage state someone **should** do when the TVM at their origin station does sell their desired ticket but does not accept their chosen method of payment?

 

[Krokodil]

If closing ticket offices saves money, what thing related to tixket offices will lead to the most savings?

Destaffing those few small stations that still have staff. Don't believe the claims that the same staff will be floorwalking around the TVMs.

 

[FatContr0ller]

I currently work in a ticket office. The busiest on my section of the line.
I still take upwards of £2000 on my shift at least 3 days per week. Thats enough to pay my wage, the opposite shifts wage, provide staff on the station, and operate the TVMs. There is a case to close smaller offices, but when they literally pay for themselves? Why throw the baby out with the bathwater and close ones that are still used?
Im very worried about the future

 

[Llandudno]

Plenty of smartphones can be obtained at a modest cost, and it’s your choice how much data you choose to give them.

Four years ago I bought a second hand iPhone 8 off EBay for £80, excellent condition and long battery life, still going strong to this day. £9 a month SIM only deal, unlimited texts, virtually unlimited calls and I have yet to run out of data on any given month.

If it breaks or I get it stolen or lose it then a will spend £80-£90 on a replacement!

 

[MikeWM]

I'd be happy with things like booking offices and cash payments being retained if the increasingly tiny number of people wanting to use them are willing to pay extra to fund them, as I'm not.

Or perhaps those paying for small amounts by card could chip in themselves for their card processing fees, rather than expecting those of us paying by cash to help fund those? There was a good reason that until very recently most places had a minimum spend for card transactions. Are you certain that the costs of handling cash outweighs all these card processing fees added together? These things cut both ways.

Alternatively we could just continue to let people do what they feel most comfortable with (including ticket offices, paper tickets, paying in cash, paper timetables, and return tickets), and stop trying to make these 'savings' that are miniscule compared to the entire railway budget, but that also dissuade people from using the railways and probably end up costing more than they save.

--

What do the National Rail Conditions of Carriage state someone **should** do when faced with this scenario?

In addition, what do the National Rail Conditions of Carriage state someone **should** do when the TVM at their origin station does sell their desired ticket but does not accept their chosen method of payment?

To the former, I believe it is silent on the subject of what to do if your preferred ticket is unavailable on a TVM, which is very unhelpful.

To the latter, 6.1.3.2 refers to 'preferred method of payment (card or cash)', whereas 6.1.1. for penalty fare stations refers to 'only available method of payment (card or cash)' - which means for a penalty fare station it is entirely unclear whether you are required to use a card or not if the machine only takes cards, and you have a card on you, but prefer to use cash. Which is also very unhelpful.

 

[AdamWW]

To the latter, 6.1.3.2 refers to 'preferred method of payment (card or cash)', whereas 6.1.1. for penalty fare stations refers to 'only available method of payment (card or cash)' - which means for a penalty fare station it is entirely unclear whether you are required to use a card or not if the machine only takes cards, and you have a card on you, but prefer to use cash. Which is also very unhelpful.

Not to mention that if 6.1.1 is meant to refer only to penalty fare stations they have written it incorrectly because that's not what it actually says.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or perhaps those paying for small amounts by card could chip in themselves for their card processing fees, rather than expecting those of us paying by cash to help fund those?

You don't. Cash is much more expensive than card to process. You have to count it, take it to the bank and bank it (and often pay for doing so), and either insure it or accept a risk of theft during that transport. Only people who value their time at zero would find cash cheaper - admittedly some corner shop operators might see it that way, but it is poor business practice to do so. Larger businesses using a cash courier have to pay for that too.

The key thing, though, is that those costs exist if you accept ANY cash. Thus if you accept both cash and card, card costs you more. But if you cease accepting cash entirely, it gets cheaper. And safer, because if there's no cash there are far fewer reasons to "hold up" a shop.

There's also that cash can be and often is used as a means of tax evasion. It's rife in the taxi trade for instance. That's a saving that isn't justifiable.

I'd have no issue with a fee being imposed for cards as long as a fee reflective of costs (which means valuing the time of the person processing it at no less than the minimum wage) was also applied to cash payments.

To the former, I believe it is silent on the subject of what to do if your preferred ticket is unavailable on a TVM, which is very unhelpful.

There does indeed need to be a rule on that. It used to be "buy a single to the interchange and sort it there" but the lack of facilities to refund the single if it wasn't the same TOC kiboshed that.

 

[Richardr]

Do you have a source for that? I've not been told anything by them. Their website suggests Contactless Payment in the app is Visa only though: https://www.barclaycard.co.uk/personal/customer/barclaycard-app

Off topic, but just on this, mine stopped working a few months ago. Barclays now uses Google Wallet for debit cards, but don't currently for credit cards, and so those are due to stop working completely on Android phones.

I was in a local Costa on Saturday, and their phone line was down. Net result was that they were cash only, and also couldn't scan their loyalty cards. [Obviously Wi-Fi didn't work either]. I did have a fiver on me, quite a few people left without buying anything as they didn't have cash.

 

[HSTEd]

Or perhaps those paying for small amounts by card could chip in themselves for their card processing fees, rather than expecting those of us paying by cash to help fund those? There was a good reason that until very recently most places had a minimum spend for card transactions. Are you certain that the costs of handling cash outweighs all these card processing fees added together? These things cut both ways.

Alternatively we could just continue to let people do what they feel most comfortable with (including ticket offices, paper tickets, paying in cash, paper timetables, and return tickets), and stop trying to make these 'savings' that are miniscule compared to the entire railway budget, but that also dissuade people from using the railways and probably end up costing more than they save.

The reason that no-cash locations have exploded in recent years is because cash handling is substantially more expansive than card processing fees in cases where the bulk of payments are made by card - as they are now.

Handling cash is very expensive in terms of labour, security costs and in potential shrinkage and other losses.
A huge cash handling infrastructure can be dispensed with if the traders go card only.

This is especially true at remote TVMs where the only remaining consumable will be ticket roll - and providing an enormous ticket rolli s much cheaper than allowing large amounts of cash to pile up in the machines. (Which requires a larger cash box and increases theft risks both in transit and at the machine).

Indeed at this point it would probably be cheaper to replace banknotes generally with Aztec code vouchers of fixed face values.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect because of the demographics that use them and because of the "valuing of staff time at zero" thing corner shops are likely to be the final holdout of cash acceptance. Thus for the railway a good way to get rid of it would be to partner with one of the prepaid card companies to offer a National Rail Payment Card loadable at PayPoint and PayZone shops (between the two that covers basically all corner shops), and then to cease acceptance at their own sales channels. This would, even given having to pay the card company for the deal, almost certainly save an absolute fortune while still allowing those who deal only in cash to continue to do so, they'd just, like London bus users, have to go to a corner shop to load the relevant amount of cash onto their card first.

 

[Krokodil]

Or perhaps those paying for small amounts by card could chip in themselves for their card processing fees, rather than expecting those of us paying by cash to help fund those? There was a good reason that until very recently most places had a minimum spend for card transactions. Are you certain that the costs of handling cash outweighs all these card processing fees added together? These things cut both ways.

Alternatively we could just continue to let people do what they feel most comfortable with (including ticket offices, paper tickets, paying in cash, paper timetables, and return tickets), and stop trying to make these 'savings' that are miniscule compared to the entire railway budget, but that also dissuade people from using the railways and probably end up costing more than they save.

A local café has introduced a minimum spend of £15 for card transactions, blaming the processing fees. I haven't eaten there since, on my own I just don't spend enough to go to more than half of the minimum spend.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A local café has introduced a minimum spend of £15 for card transactions, blaming the processing fees. I haven't eaten there since, on my own I just don't spend enough to go to more than half of the minimum spend.

The processing fees for cash exist pretty much if ANY cash is accepted. You only get the big savings which far outweigh card acceptance costs if you stop entirely.

 

[northwichcat]

The reason that no-cash locations have exploded in recent years is because cash handling is substantially more expansive than card processing fees in cases where the bulk of payments are made by card - as they are now.

COVID played a big factor. People wanted to avoid handling cash and using ATMs more. Then more people banking online has seen branch closures, so some businesses would have to send someone further to pay in.

 

[43066]

I suspect because of the demographics that use them and because of the "valuing of staff time at zero" thing corner shops are likely to be the final holdout of cash acceptance. Thus for the railway a good way to get rid of it would be to partner with one of the prepaid card companies to offer a National Rail Payment Card loadable at PayPoint and PayZone shops (between the two that covers basically all corner shops), and then to cease acceptance at their own sales channels. This would, even given having to pay the card company for the deal, almost certainly save an absolute fortune.

Or do what TfL did with the buses: simply announce the end of cash on the railway from date X and cease to accept it from then. It’s hardly likely it will dissuade many from using it, and indeed the savings might well outweigh the loss of any fare revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or do what TfL did with the buses: simply announce the end of cash on the railway from date X and cease to accept it from then. It’s hardly likely it will dissuade many from using it, and indeed the savings might well outweigh the loss of any fare revenue.

That isn't quite what TfL did with the buses, because cash is still accepted in a way almost identical to what I suggested - by going to an Oyster Ticket Stop (near enough every convenience store in London) and putting it on an Oyster card.

It does seem though that the vast majority of people who use cash on the railway do so by choice and not necessity, i.e. they have a card or someone who could use one for them or could easily obtain one but choose not to use it. In the context of a railway that needs to save a load of money, it does seem relatively low hanging fruit.

Here's a Beechingesque* trade-off for you all then - would you rather we kept a few booking offices and abolished cash, or kept cash but abolished booking offices?

* Beeching failed to investigate trade-offs for small lines - it was basically a full-service railway or nothing - a bus-like DOO rural railway with unstaffed stations wasn't considered, and arguably (not for this thread) should have been.

 

[Krokodil]

Or do what TfL did with the buses: simply announce the end of cash on the railway from date X and cease to accept it from then. It’s hardly likely it will dissuade many from using it, and indeed the savings might well outweigh the loss of any fare revenue.

You'll just get a load of people travelling for free instead (it's hard enough extracting the cash from them in the first place). On some lines cash makes the guard's life a lot easier because of how intermittent the mobile signal is.

 

[Philip]

Not really. You just rarely have any evidence to back up anything you say.

My point is that 'yorkie' seems to have an agenda against ticket offices and their staff, refuses to acknowledge the good aspects they provide (a friendly face, good customer service, extra help during times of disruption, experience; both of which can outweigh anything an online portal can offer), and is very quick to point the finger at the ticket office whenever there is a situation where it could be argued that the ticket clerks are in the wrong; even if it's open to debate.

If there has been a bad experience at some locations then it's between the poster and the staff at those locations, but it comes across that 'yorkie' uses those personal experiences to lever the point that they're all bad and should all go.

 

[43066]

That isn't quite what TfL did with the buses, because cash is still accepted in a way almost identical to what I suggested - by going to an Oyster Ticket Stop (near enough every convenience store in London) and putting it on an Oyster card.

If people are that desperate to use cash they could buy one of the various prepaid debit cards already in existence and use those.

It does seem though that the vast majority of people who use cash on the railway do so by choice and not necessity, i.e. they have a card or someone who could use one for them or could easily obtain one but choose not to use it. In the context of a railway that needs to save a load of money, it does seem relatively low hanging fruit.

Indeed.

Here's a Beechingesque* trade-off for you all then - would you rather we kept a few booking offices and abolished cash, or kept cash but abolished booking offices?

Is there an option to get rid of both and give the remaining staff a pay rise ?

You'll just get a load of people travelling for free instead (it's hard enough extracting the cash from them in the first place). On some lines cash makes the guard's life a lot easier because of how intermittent the mobile signal is.

Take the point buses are more closely supervised as the driver watches people boarding. I wonder whether there would be more/less evasion than currently if cash was removed…

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'll just get a load of people travelling for free instead (it's hard enough extracting the cash from them in the first place). On some lines cash makes the guard's life a lot easier because of how intermittent the mobile signal is.

I suspect the savings from ceasing accepting cash across the entire network would run into millions per year at least, if not that then hundreds of thousands. Imagine the courier costs of collecting and processing cash from every booking office and cash-accepting TVM?

If I'm correct in this, it would be cheaper to allow everyone on some obscure branch line with a bad mobile signal (e.g. Conwy Valley, Far North) to travel entirely free than to continue acceptance. And it won't be that long before coverage is near universal anyway - Apple incorporating basic satphone features in the iPhone 14 indicates the way things are going.

 

[sheff1]

Indeed Sweden, having already shut all ticket offices, including that at its Capital City - Stockholm Central is now moving onto the next phase of shutting all ticket machines with people without smartphones having to pay a supplement to have their tickets printed at station shops!!

Weird. I have been in Sweden on multiple occasions since May and all the stations I used (large and small) had ticket machines on which no such notices were displayed. One refused to sell tickets to stations served by the next train (not to me, I already had one) which caused a prospective customer to ask everyone in sight for assistance, without success. There was no Pressbyran or other shop on the station or nearby. He did board the train ticketless when it arrived - no idea what happened then.

 

[Starmill]

Destaffing those few small stations that still have staff. Don't believe the claims that the same staff will be floorwalking around the TVMs.

I unfortunately would be concerned about the possibility of this happening yes. The complete destaffing of the current single staffed stations is something I would certainly object to.

I suspect because of the demographics that use them and because of the "valuing of staff time at zero" thing corner shops are likely to be the final holdout of cash acceptance. Thus for the railway a good way to get rid of it would be to partner with one of the prepaid card companies to offer a National Rail Payment Card loadable at PayPoint and PayZone shops (between the two that covers basically all corner shops), and then to cease acceptance at their own sales channels. This would, even given having to pay the card company for the deal, almost certainly save an absolute fortune while still allowing those who deal only in cash to continue to do so, they'd just, like London bus users, have to go to a corner shop to load the relevant amount of cash onto their card first.

The government really really should be looking at funding for widening participation in basic bank accounts or prepaid cards to the unbanked / those currently ineligible for a bank account (e.g. no fixed address). I know HSBC were doing a trial with Shelter but it needs to be more comprehensive in scope.

If they would do that then all businesses nationally would be able to share in the benefits of not having to deal with cash sooner than would otherwise be the case. Sadly the current government seem to care absolutely nothing for either small and medium sized businesses or the unbanked, so it's yet another unnecessary barrier to economic growth for the sake of a tiny bit of funding. It would even save the government themselves money because it would mean all local authority car parks and in-house local authority bus services could finally cease accepting cash... as well as the railway!