Ticket Office Services post closure

[Roy1234]

With many of the major and minor ticket offices currently facing closure, would anyone know if plans have been made to provide services which currently are only available at a Ticket Office and not by machine?

These include buying a PlusBus ticket against your train ticket and reserving a seat against a season ticket. Unrelatedly, it's always seemed odd that the holder of a discount Railcard (e.g. Senior Railcard) cannot simply buy a season ticket against that, but must daily buy a new ticket against their Railcard to get their discount. Surely an inspector can just ask for the RailCard along with the Season Ticket the same way they would any one-off ticket bought for a discount using one? The scope for abuse & likelihood of detection are the same.

 

[SynthD]

Staff menus on the machines can do more, such as add a railcard to oyster. It would be interesting to see the number of different machine platforms and their capabilities.

 

[Western 52]

Rovers are often only available in ticket offices too. They are not usually on ticket vending machines.

 

[30907]

The general answer from RDG has been, "yes they will be."

Discounted season tickets for Railcard holders is a separate issue - basically, they are not intended for commuting.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Rovers are often only available in ticket offices too. They are not usually on ticket vending machines.

There are literally thousands of self service machines that sell ranger and rover tickets, plus an increasing number of the most popular national ones are available online.

However for other reasons, ranger/rovers in my view, have a relatively limited remaining lifespan owing to such low usage and the changes (and costs) needed to potentially make them "smart". Other threads on this forum cover this.

PlusBus is also available from many self service machines and online. The number of people buying PlusBus is also insignificant - even less people buy PlusBus separately from their main rail ticket, so most people would just buy everything online and collect from a machine. I think some limited ITSO smartcard schemes (GTR, Southeastern etc) automatically cap a rail/bus journey at the appropriate PlusBus far already, meaning you don't need to buy a ticket specifically.

Seat reservation only bookings are available online or via most social media channels.

Some Railcards are valid for season tickets, but not many. A season ticket is already fairly heavily discounted in some cases, so you'd be obtaining an extra discount on top of that already if it was to be widely permitted.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There are literally thousands of self service machines that sell ranger and rover tickets, plus an increasing number of the most popular national ones are available online.

Just over 600 currently I believe

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Just over 600 currently I believe

That sounds like you're just counting Northern.

Most of the TfL (National Rail served) TVM estate has them too, particularly at London Overground etc.

I think Avanti/c2c PICO now have (some) too.

 

[redreni]

I made a trip to Eastleigh in March where:

a. I didn't know when I booked my Advance tickets how I was going to get to my final destination from Eastleigh station, so I didn't buy the plusbus add-on at the time. I bought it later from a ticket office, otherwise I couldn't have bought it, and
b. owing to a slight change of plans I could foresee a significant risk of missing my booked train for the return leg so, on arrival at Eastleigh, I enquired at the ticket office about an excess. I did pay the change-of-type excess from Advance to Super Off Peak.

So that's two occasions in connection with one journey where I needed a ticket office, despite the fact that compared with the average man on the street (though not, of course, compared to others on this forum), I know what I'm doing. The less people understand about the ticketing system, the more likely they are to need assistance from the ticket office, even for transactions that would have been possible without the ticket office if not for the need for advice.

I'm particularly concerned about (b) in the absence of ticket offices, since it's something that can only be done before travel and before the booked departure time.

I'm concerned about excesses generally, in fact. I know they can be bought en route or at the destination, but I can foresee an awful lot of disputes where railway staff suspect a passenger has tried to get away with travelling on a cheaper ticket which isn't valid for the journey they're making. I'd be amazed if penalty fares aren't issued when passengers were willing to pay the excess and would have done so at the ticket office before travelling, but couldn't because there was no ticket office.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect staff on station concourses to deal with excesses, particularly when peak demand for excesses is likely to come at peak times. I realise fare simplification and single leg pricing may reduce (but not eliminate) this in the future, to which my answer is shouldn't the fixes come first?

 

[yorkie]

So that's two occasions in connection with one journey where I needed a ticket office....

Because of the failure of the industry (so far) to enable these particular purchases to be made online.

I'm particularly concerned about (b) in the absence of ticket offices, since it's something that can only be done before travel and before the booked departure time.

You can generally speaking re-book online and submit the original for a refund, paying a £10 admin fee, which should be the same admin fee as charged at the station.

I'm concerned about excesses generally, in fact. I know they can be bought en route or at the destination, but I can foresee an awful lot of disputes where railway staff suspect a passenger has tried to get away with travelling on a cheaper ticket which isn't valid for the journey they're making.

If the ticket office is shut, then all types of excess would be the same on board as they would have been at the ticket office. (For some excess types, there is no penalty even if the ticket office is open)

I'd be amazed if penalty fares aren't issued when passengers were willing to pay the excess and would have done so at the ticket office before travelling, but couldn't because there was no ticket office.

I agree that the rail industry cannot be trusted not to issue PFs incorrectly; we had an example posted just a few days ago:

Advance Tickets - Nonsensical restrictions should be removed

Yesterday, I travelled from Liverpool Lime Street on a ticket to Blackpool North for a retirees day out with some old colleagues. Our host lives in Poulton-le-Fylde and suggested we get off at his home station for a pint in his local before continuing to Blackpool. We had a pint there and...

www.railforums.co.uk

I don't think it's reasonable to expect staff on station concourses to deal with excesses, particularly when peak demand for excesses is likely to come at peak times. I realise fare simplification and single leg pricing may reduce (but not eliminate) this in the future, to which my answer is shouldn't the fixes come first?

Yes the industry has shot itself in the foot by not making various products available online and/or issuing reassurances that passengers won't be maltreated before making these proposals. However this sort of blunder is entirely consistent with what I expect from the rail industry.

 

[Roy1234]

There are literally thousands of self service machines that sell ranger and rover tickets, plus an increasing number of the most popular national ones are available online.

However for other reasons, ranger/rovers in my view, have a relatively limited remaining lifespan owing to such low usage and the changes (and costs) needed to potentially make them "smart". Other threads on this forum cover this.

PlusBus is also available from many self service machines and online. The number of people buying PlusBus is also insignificant - even less people buy PlusBus separately from their main rail ticket, so most people would just buy everything online and collect from a machine. I think some limited ITSO smartcard schemes (GTR, Southeastern etc) automatically cap a rail/bus journey at the appropriate PlusBus far already, meaning you don't need to buy a ticket specifically.

Seat reservation only bookings are available online or via most social media channels.

Some Railcards are valid for season tickets, but not many. A season ticket is already fairly heavily discounted in some cases, so you'd be obtaining an extra discount on top of that already if it was to be widely permitted.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but can you give me some more info on the availability of PlusBus tickets from Self Service machines? Also on how to reserve seats online against my annual season ticket? No ticket office staff I've ever chatted with this about, whilst doing it for me, has ever done anything except agree it's odd that these are ticket office only options.

As regards getting Senior Railcard discount to commute, it is permitted (i.e. not blocked), so what difference does offering it as a season ticket make? The over 60s are commonly getting this discount daily, and ticket office staff advised my wife to do so as the cheapest fare compared to her previous annual ticket.

 

[yorkie]

You can get seat reservations from GWR's website:

Bookings

myaccount.gwr.com

 

[johncrossley]

Sorry if I'm being dense, but can you give me some more info on the availability of PlusBus tickets from Self Service machines?

I don't see how Plusbus could ever be issued from a machine unless issued at the same time as the train ticket. If you could get it from the machine as a standalone ticket then anyone could buy one and just use it as a cut price bus day ticket and not use the train.

 

[Haywain]

As regards getting Senior Railcard discount to commute, it is permitted (i.e. not blocked), so what difference does offering it as a season ticket make?

As already pointed out, season tickets are already discounted.

The over 60s are commonly getting this discount daily, and ticket office staff advised my wife to do so as the cheapest fare compared to her previous annual ticket.

That may be the case in some parts of the country but in vast swathes of the south of England Senior Railcards cannot be used at all at typical commuting times, and the difference in fare between an undiscounted Anytime Day Return and a discounted Off Peak Day return can be very significant (for example £43.50 against £19.85 for a journey of around 40 miles to London).

 

[michael8]

I'm pretty sure this is what is meant by "simplification of rail fares". Just means removal of options going forwards, which is never good for the consumer, although it is being sold as being an improvement.

Imagine a future where the only tickets you can buy are the tickets currently sold at a TVM. Where is the incentive for a TOC to upgrade their TVM system to include the tickets only currently sold at a ticket office, if they know people will travel anyway?

"Complicated" or "byzantine" is not necessarily bad - it just requires one's brain to step-up and adapt. This is why the human aspect of ticket sales is so important - from a myriad of options, a human ticket clerk can recommend the best option for you, in a way that a machine can't.

Beware of promises of simplification.

 

[Roy1234]

As already pointed out, season tickets are already discounted.

That may be the case in some parts of the country but in vast swathes of the south of England Senior Railcards cannot be used at all at typical commuting times, and the difference in fare between an undiscounted Anytime Day Return and a discounted Off Peak Day return can be very significant (for example £43.50 against £19.85 for a journey of around 40 miles to London).

I didn't mean they should get an annual discount on top of the Senior Railcard, I meant they should get the Senior Railcard discount only, in the form of an annual ticket, to spare them the hassle of buying a fresh ticket every single day they commute. One lady I commute with then must buy her daily Plusbus at the ticket office too.

As regards prohibitions on Senior Railcard discounts in the south of England, I'm sure the ticket selling software is more than capable of refusing that discount on the affected southern lines. They do know where you are going to/from, after all.

 

[Wallsendmag]

That sounds like you're just counting Northern.

Most of the TfL (National Rail served) TVM estate has them too, particularly at London Overground etc.

I think Avanti/c2c PICO now have (some) too.

I had forgotten Avanti and C2C for that matter but TfL are out of scope of what i deal with.

 

[woolleywoods]

I read today online that the government watchdog is set to recommend most of the ticket Office closures.

As an older person who is anything but used to doing things online or in machines at stations I personally will completely miss being able to get my ticket, talk it over and make sure it is correct.

Also how will you be able to get an All Line 7 day Rail Rover ticket? These are not available on line of at ticket machines at all,.

I saw Graffiti on a notice about the consultation at Nuneaton station saying duh use Trainline .com; all very well but obviously a younger person we are not all well versed in the new ways.

The watchdog and the government say the staff will be better able to help people on the station; they do that job anyway very well and still manage to staff ticket offices.

We all know this is just another way of taking people's jobs away, as as soon as the powers that be realise staff are surplus they will be made redundant

I know this is a rant but really it seems such a shallow exercise and we all know it is really about cutting jobs not helping users of the stations.

Jon

 

[Alex365Dash]

how will you be able to get an All Line 7 day Rail Rover ticket these are not available on line of at ticket machines at all

The answer will be to either:

• Buy it at a hub station, which will be able to sell tickets not otherwise available on ticket machines (TVMs) - I believe this option is planned to be withdrawn once tickets are widely available on TVMs
• Buy from the TVM (only Northern on the day at the minute)
• Buy online (GWR does them!) and get it posted to you

I’ve probably missed an option or two (telesales or accredited travel agents?) but I’m not aware much about others.

 

[jamiearmley]

The answer will be to either:

• Buy it at a hub station, which will be able to sell tickets not otherwise available on ticket machines (TVMs) - I believe this option is planned to be withdrawn once tickets are widely available on TVMs
• Buy from the TVM (only Northern on the day at the minute)
• Buy online (GWR does them!) and get it posted to you

I’ve probably missed an option or two (telesales or accredited travel agents?) but I’m not aware much about others.

Any rover or ranger is available from any conductor with a ticket machine.
Myself, I am more than happy to sell any required rover or ranger - and regularly do so, for any future date, up to and including the 14 day All Line First Class rover, and I always make sure I have a supply of ticket wallets for them to be kept safely inside.

I would always recommend that an expensive rover purchase is made with full knowledge of their validity and restrictions, which the TVM does not provide : (and yes, I have tried and found out for myself) - although there are many websites which do cover validity and restrictions, but these may not be suitable for all purchasers needs.

 

[woolleywoods]

The answer will be to either:

• Buy it at a hub station, which will be able to sell tickets not otherwise available on ticket machines (TVMs) - I believe this option is planned to be withdrawn once tickets are widely available on TVMs
• Buy from the TVM (only Northern on the day at the minute)
• Buy online (GWR does them!) and get it posted to you

I’ve probably missed an option or two (telesales or accredited travel agents?) but I’m not aware much about others.

Hi Alex Thank you for your help.

Much appreciated.

Jon

Any rover or ranger is available from any conductor with a ticket machine.
Myself, I am more than happy to sell any required rover or ranger - and regularly do so, for any future date, up to and including the 14 day All Line First Class rover, and I always make sure I have a supply of ticket wallets for them to be kept safely inside.

I would always recommend that an expensive rover purchase is made with full knowledge of their validity and restrictions, which the TVM does not provide : (and yes, I have tried and found out for myself) - although there are many websites which do cover validity and restrictions, but these may not be suitable for all purchasers needs.

Hi Jamie Thank you for you help and advice much appreciated.

Jon

 

[paddy1]

Any rover or ranger is available from any conductor with a ticket machine.
Myself, I am more than happy to sell any required rover or ranger - and regularly do so, for any future date, up to and including the 14 day All Line First Class rover, and I always make sure I have a supply of ticket wallets for them to be kept safely inside.

I would always recommend that an expensive rover purchase is made with full knowledge of their validity and restrictions, which the TVM does not provide : (and yes, I have tried and found out for myself) - although there are many websites which do cover validity and restrictions, but these may not be suitable for all purchasers needs.

Thank you. That's handy to know as my local station ticket office (Kidsgrove) is one of those due to close and the TVM does not sell rovers or rangers.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I made a trip to Eastleigh in March where:

a. I didn't know when I booked my Advance tickets how I was going to get to my final destination from Eastleigh station, so I didn't buy the plusbus add-on at the time. I bought it later from a ticket office, otherwise I couldn't have bought it,

Bus companies would rather you didn't buy it! The share they get is so small as to make no difference. Bus companies will not be upset if plusbus gets discontinued.

 

[BluePenguin]

The general answer from RDG has been, "yes they will be."

Discounted season tickets for Railcard holders is a separate issue - basically, they are not intended for commuting.

What are they intended for then? Only scenario I can think of is frequently visiting an elderly relative in the hospital until they inevitably die.

 

[island]

What are they intended for then? Only scenario I can think of is frequently visiting an elderly relative in the hospital until they inevitably die.

Railcards are intended for use on leisure journeys.

 

[Deerfold]

What are they intended for then? Only scenario I can think of is frequently visiting an elderly relative in the hospital until they inevitably die.

I think you've misunderstood. The point is season tickets aren't discountable with a Railcard, not what you can do with a discounted season ticket.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I think you've misunderstood. The point is season tickets aren't discountable with a Railcard, not what you can do with a discounted season ticket.

With the exception of the 16-17 Saver Railcard, which does offer a 50% discount on season tickets.