Ticket offices offering split tickets

[Philip]

Historically booking offices have been advised/told not to offer split tickets and to only offer them for sale if the passenger asks for them. However, in the interests of both customer service and in helping to persuade people to use the ticket office over online booking systems, are we now at a point where this 'rule' is archaic and that there should be the flexibility for ticket office staff to offer split tickets on routes where they know they exist and where a decent saving can be made, without being held to account by mystery shoppers and the TOC management?

 

[JonathanH]

However, in the interests of both customer service and in helping to persuade people to use the ticket office over online booking systems, are we now at a point where this 'rule' is archaic and that there should be the flexibility for ticket office staff to offer split tickets on routes where they know they exist and where a decent saving can be made, without being held to account by mystery shoppers and the TOC management?

Given I understand you work in such a role, can you explain when you do and when you don't offer split tickets and how you see this would work? How many split opportunities are you aware of, but don't sell?

 

[Philip]

Given I understand you work in such a role, can you explain when you do and when you don't offer split tickets and how you see this would work? How many split opportunities are you aware of, but don't sell?

If a passenger asks to buy a ticket on a route where we know there are split savings available, we'll offer the relevant split. Sometimes on a rather overpriced routes we'll check anyway to see if there is a saving to be made, and if so offer it. We don't refuse to offer split tickets off our own backs on any routes as this just seems pointless, although I know historically ticket offices have been told not to offer them because of TOCs not wanting to lose revenue.

 

[najaB]

Dundee booking office staff offer splits at Perth (for Glasgow) or Leuchars/Kirkcaldy (for Edinburgh) without prompting.

 

[Turtle]

Historically booking offices have been advised/told not to offer split tickets and to only offer them for sale if the passenger asks for them. However, in the interests of both customer service and in helping to persuade people to use the ticket office over online booking systems, are we now at a point where this 'rule' is archaic and that there should be the flexibility for ticket office staff to offer split tickets on routes where they know they exist and where a decent saving can be made, without being held to account by mystery shoppers and the TOC management?

Yes, booking offices should offer the cheapest fare automatically; it's good PR for the Railway after all. However, I recall a clerk at my local station telling me, well over 25 years ago, that higher management had instructed them to keep shtum about split tickets.
As an aside, why does the system allow split tickets anyway? Can anyone explain the logic behind it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside, why does the system allow split tickets anyway? Can anyone explain the logic behind it?

Why wouldn't it allow them?

In terms of legality, BR lost a legal case years ago when it wanted to ban rebooking and continuing via the same train. There's absolutely nothing anyone can do to prevent splitting at a change point, that's just two journeys if the passenger wishes it to be.

It was being looked at a while ago to simplify Advances and remove the need for most splits (which occur because of different quotas being available for different legs) by making this the default system - you'd sum up the relevant sections and issue it as one ticket. I'm not quite sure why this wasn't done, but the likes of Trainsplit and Trainline certainly benefit from it. The only TOC I know of that actually does do that (for single Advance only splits on their own trains) is LNER - they do it by issuing the through ticket but discounting it to the price of the split.

 

[mike57]

Going back to maybe 2008 I was offered and sold split tickets by Scarborough ticket office for a journey where the saving was significant. (From memory I saved around £20 on an otherwise £60 journey)

The issue is ticket office knowledge, as the combinations and permutations are huge. If the saving is significant and based on the customer travel plans they know money could be saved then they should be allowed or even encoraged to offer them.

 

[W-on-Sea]

As the TOC on which split ticketing is arguably most advantageous (Cross Country) does not operate any ticket offices, I wonder if they might take legal action (I'm not sure on exactly what grounds) if they felt that the actions of other TOCs, which do operate ticket offices, by offering split ticketing on their routes in some way undermined their position.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the TOC on which split ticketing is arguably most advantageous (Cross Country) does not operate any ticket offices, I wonder if they might take legal action (I'm not sure on exactly what grounds) if they felt that the actions of other TOCs, which do operate ticket offices, by offering split ticketing on their routes in some way undermined their position.

This would be anticompetitive behaviour.

 

[najaB]

As the TOC on which split ticketing is arguably most advantageous (Cross Country) does not operate any ticket offices, I wonder if they might take legal action (I'm not sure on exactly what grounds) if they felt that the actions of other TOCs, which do operate ticket offices, by offering split ticketing on their routes in some way undermined their position.

As long as the tickets being offered were publicly available, and the combination complied with the terms of the NRCoT then there wouldn't be any grounds for legal action.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The issue is ticket office knowledge, as the combinations and permutations are huge. If the saving is significant and based on the customer travel plans they know money could be saved then they should be allowed or even encoraged to offer them.

Not just ticket office knowledge, in fact that can be a double-edged sword. I once dealt with a passenger who had boarded at a station where for some reason the booking office was closed. They asked for a particular ticket and were quite argumentative about the price I was quoting being a fair bit more than the booking office offered. I eventually realised that there was likely a worthwhile split available for this particular journey and soon found and sold it. Technically outside of normal selling protocol but to have done otherwise would have prolonged a rather pointless argument.

Of course the solution is a massive simplification of the whole fares setting regime but this would create both winners and losers: nobody wants to justify the changes to the losers so we carry on...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course the solution is a massive simplification of the whole fares setting regime but this would create both winners and losers: nobody wants to justify the changes to the losers so we carry on...

Interestingly the massive simplification that has occurred for Project Oval on places like the WCML has created some new splits (albeit not with massive savings), and the other one I use often is in simple Anytime fares too!

It's like it was too complex to put the single fares into Excel to check the components didn't add up to less than the through fare.

 

[najaB]

It's like it was too complex to put the single fares into Excel to check the components didn't add up to less than the through fare.

For a simple set of flows, that's easily done. However, as you increase the number of station pairs the problem becomes exponentially harder.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For a simple set of flows, that's easily done. However, as you increase the number of station pairs the problem becomes exponentially harder.

It'd be fairly easily done for just the south WCML for direct journeys to Euston, but they haven't!

 

[jfollows]

I don't expect ticket offices to offer split tickets, I want them to concentrate on getting the basics right - mine seems to - but split tickets have too many variables.
I split Wilmslow-Birmingham at Stafford. OK, but there are not just a number of different tickets Wilmslow-Stafford but also a number of different Stafford-Birmingham tickets. Maybe I'm too early for a day return from Wilmslow, fair enough, but I might be late enough for a day return from Stafford, so that'd be good. But what about the annoying evening peak restrictions back from Birmingham - am I going to run into these? So should the ticket office advise on a (no cost) work-around? On tickets which aren't even from Wilmslow in the first place! I just don't think it's reasonable to expect this.
So I do my own research and buy specific tickets from Wilmslow station in person and it's no problem. If the ticket office is closed that's immensely irritating because the machine is a complete pain to use for this, so maybe I'll buy online from the forum's site, that's not too bad. But I don't expect a person in the ticket office to be able to advise me on the intricacies of even this relatively simple-seeming split.

 

[mike57]

But I don't expect a person in the ticket office to be able to advise me on the intricacies of even this relatively simple-seeming split.

Which is the proof, if we needed it, that the current ticketing system is far too complicated. Just from our local station to Hull, a through journey on one operator there are 3 different single ticket types and 3 different return tickets.

 

[jfollows]

Which is the proof, if we needed it, that the current ticketing system is far too complicated. Just from our local station to Hull, a through journey on one operator there are 3 different single ticket types and 3 different return tickets.

Exactly so.
We've got "any permitted", Avanti-only, TfW-only between Wilmslow and Manchester, plus Northern-only advance tickets which can't be sold by the ticket office anyway, so do they advise using the machine instead for these? Especially when the Avanti-only fare is a con trick 10p less than "any permitted" specifically designed to trip up people using the machine ........ so the ticket office can hopefully provide advice for a better return ticket option at least.

 

[JD2168]

Sheffield Station ticket office does off split ticketing. When I went to Birmingham International for the NEC in January they split the ticket at Derby.

 

[yorkie]

If a passenger asks to buy a ticket on a route where we know there are split savings available, we'll offer the relevant split.

Does your employer allow this?

Sometimes on a rather overpriced routes we'll check anyway to see if there is a saving to be made, and if so offer it. We don't refuse to offer split tickets off our own backs on any routes as this just seems pointless, although

Which TOC is this?

I know historically ticket offices have been told not to offer them because of TOCs not wanting to lose revenue.

Did you see the recent communication from LNER?

 

[ReturnToSPT]

TOCs not offering splits, especially through their apps (none I can think of?), serves only to push more people towards the Trainline monopoly

 

[yorkie]

TOCs not offering splits, especially through their apps (none I can think of?), serves only to push more people towards the Trainline monopoly

LNER do, but it's very basic.

Trainline don't have a monopoly, but there is a possibility they potentially could be deemed to have a dominant market position (I don't know for sure as I don't know the figures) from a third party retail position, but some TOCs are probably in a dominant market position in relation to journeys for the major flows they operate. Without sight of figures, it's difficult to comment.

 

[175mph]

Last August when I was staying in Reading, I wanted to travel to Bristol, but the self service machine at the station only offered a very expensive period return and I was prepared to be told by the ticket office staff that was all that was available, take it or leave it.

However, the guy who served me said whilst strictly speaking that is the only walk up fare available for my intended journey, he said as a workaround, he can split the fare by selling individual journey portions. This brought down the fare to a much more reasonable price, and of course thanks to these forums, I'm no stranger to the concept of split ticketing, but I was impressed how quick he was to suggest split ticketing with the need for me to ask about it.

 

[yorkie]

Last August when I was staying in Reading, I wanted to travel to Bristol, but the self service machine at the station only offered a very expensive period return and I was prepared to be told by the ticket office staff that was all that was available, take it or leave it.

However, the guy who served me said whilst strictly speaking that is the only walk up fare available for my intended journey, he said as a workaround, he can split the fare by selling individual journey portions. This brought down the fare to a much more reasonable price,and of course thanks to these forums, I'm no stranger to the concept of split ticketing, but I was impressed how quick he was to suggest split ticketing with the need for me to ask about it.

Ticket office staff are under instructions not to do that; LNER issued a reminder lately on this matter. So you were lucky!

The view of TOCs is that premium journeys are priced according to what the market will bear; some people will choose not to travel as the price is so high, but that's in line with what the DfT wants, as there is nowhere near sufficient capacity to cater for everyone who would use the train if the fares were good value.

Sites like ours absolutely do grow the market, but DfT isn't keen, as it means increasing costs such as rolling stock leasing costs. So we're not going to see widespread promotion of splits by TOCs, at least not with anywhere near the sort of savings that we come up with.

 

[Turtle]

Ticket office staff are under instructions not to do that; LNER issued a reminder lately on this matter. So you were lucky!

The view of TOCs is that premium journeys are priced according to what the market will bear; some people will choose not to travel as the price is so high, but that's in line with what the DfT wants, as there is nowhere near sufficient capacity to cater for everyone who would use the train if the fares were good value.

Sites like ours absolutely do grow the market, but DfT isn't keen, as it means increasing costs such as rolling stock leasing costs. So we're not going to see widespread promotion of splits by TOCs, at least not with anywhere near the sort of savings that we come up with.

Confirmation the British Privatised Rail exists in an alternative dimension!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Last autumn I was booking tickets for a myself and a friend from Huddersfield to Liverpool, the person at Huddersfield suggested splitting at Manchester to save a fair chunk. Can't recall the exact figures but it was not an insignificant amount.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'll happily offer a split ticket combination of tickets, but will make sure the passenger understands any restrictions associated with the tickets.

I now have two regular passengers who are very grateful to me for suggesting a split ticket for their journey- One Cross Country priced journey they instead pay £66, not £132.

The other journey is an Avanti ticket £68.50 instead of around £102.

What annoys me is when passengers ask me for a cheap split ticket fare they've seen online for a long journey and they haven't made a note of the details, so I'd be guessing what they've been offered and often unable to work it out.

 

[Grecian 1998]

A problem with ticket office staff offering splits on journeys they know about is that it probably wouldn't be long before people start coming in demanding to know all the possible options for journeys to Quintrell Downs / Georgemas Junction / Acle / Rhosneigr and getting quite aggressive if the staff member doesn't want to spend 45 minutes searching for every conceivable option. Along the lines of 'This is completely unfair. You helped X get a cheap deal to Y, but you can't do the same for me?' Even worse if the customer can allege some potential form of discrimination as to why the staff member won't help them, regardless of how unfair the allegation might be.

If there's only one member of staff in the office, it might be exacerbated by people behind them in the queue getting agitated about missing their train due to the demands of the customer at the front.

Sometimes it's easier just to have a blanket policy that if people know what they want, it can be sold to them; if they don't, it's not the staff member's job to do the research for them.

 

[Adam Williams]

Ticket office staff have previously written to Raileasy (from their TOC-issued email address!) implying that they use TrainSplit to work out the splits for them, and offer this as a service to customers in ticket offices, so it must happen to some degree.

 

[gc4946]

Ticket office staff haven't proactively here sold split tickets, so I worked out things for myself using National Rail's website, saved money on Leeds-Derby day returns as an example, splitting at Sheffield.
I suspect those who know the intrancies of splitting will have already known, suspect the Leeds-Sheffield fares are set by Northern, Sheffield-Derby fares by EMR

 

[WAB]

I am regularly offered splits at ticket offices and over distance tickets. I get the impression that they become aware of a few "classic" splits, often from informed passengers and share it amongst themselves. We're talking major stations as well as minor stations here; not just a rural shack going rogue.