Ticket on train confusion - penalty fare

[allypally]

Hi all,

Debut post here of a regular railway user having a first issue with a revenue protections employee (or really any railway employee).

I was travelling recently from Stevenage to London. I believe the service was Thameslink. A couple of barriers were out of order (but I had a suitcase anyway so opted for the lift) and I was just on time for the next train to London. I boarded the train and proceeded to buy a ticket asap but with slow internet. As I say, travel by rail a lot and commute to London. I have always bought my ticket the night before but this time I didn't.

Before I could complete the transaction, the train went through subsequent tunnels. This delayed the purchase by several minutes, however I did buy a ticket. Revenue protection then came 10 mins later who scanned my ticket. I was then issued with a penalty fare and told they could have reported me for prosecution but were not going to. I didn't know they were there and I wasn't trying to avoid a fare.

I was very confused at the time because my hearing aid was out of battery and I was scared of anything escalating or my confusion being interpreted as obstruction. A criminal record is automatic termination with my job.

I believe I presented valid ticket and thus I don't understand how I was even charged with a penalty fare notice under the strict application of the law.

I also was confused at the time because I couldn't hear what was happening properly and was trying to lip read. It happened very fast.

Any advice here?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Stevenage is my local station so I'm very aware of the station layout. It's unusual to find the barriers unstaffed these days. What time of day was this, or did you use the lifts to the platform therefore bypassing the barriers?

It's not exactly clear what happened. I assume a ticket inspector was checking tickets onboard and yours was flagged as being purchased after the train left Stevenage. If I'm right did you buy the ticket when the ticket inspector appeared? Were you issued with a Penalty Fare or did they take your details and tell you to expect a letter?

If you can give us more information we can advise next steps.

 

[Snow1964]

If you are deaf, did you advise the Inspector, and did they then make adjustment, such as writing down what they were explaining.

Not buying the ticket before boarding is the offence, but if you got a penalty, have paid it, then you are fully settled and matter is closed.

If however you refused to pay, or they took details to follow up then it is still open, and could progress to an offer (which with an admin fee of £100-150 added can be paid and closed, or can risk it going to court with it being recorded if found guilty.

 

[allypally]

Welcome to the forum!

Stevenage is my local station so I'm very aware of the station layout. It's unusual to find the barriers unstaffed these days. What time of day was this, or did you use the lifts to the platform therefore bypassing the barriers?

It's not exactly clear what happened. I assume a ticket inspector was checking tickets onboard and yours was flagged as being purchased after the train left Stevenage. If I'm right did you buy the ticket when the ticket inspector appeared? Were you issued with a Penalty Fare or did they take your details and tell you to expect a letter?

If you can give us more information we can advise next steps.

Hi,

I was buying the ticket anyway and the ticket officers appeared 10 minutes later and said it was purchased after departure. I said yes because of the lack of signal due to the tunnels. I was sat facing away in the last carriage and I obviously didn't hear their interactions with passengers behind me. I had no idea they were there when I was buying the ticket. I was buying it normally anyway because I needed to get off at London (also because I'm not actually a fare dodger??)

I was issued a £62 penalty fare on a long paper strip there and then. I checked and the penalty fare is on the online system.

My issue was that me being on the train for those few minutes was the "offence" unless I am mistaken. But the ticket I presented upon inspection was valid. Therefore a penalty fare was the incorrect legal vehicle to address my mistake? Penalty fares are for not having a valid ticket upon inspection, not for purchasing a valid ticket after departure?

This was in the early evening. There were a couple of barriers open and I went through because I realised if I would ran and caught the train about to arrive I wouldn't have to wait for the next train.

If you are deaf, did you advise the Inspector, and did they then make adjustment, such as writing down what they were explaining.

Not buying the ticket before boarding is the offence, but if you got a penalty, have paid it, then you are fully settled and matter is closed.

If however you refused to pay, or they took details to follow up then it is still open, and could progress to an offer (which with an admin fee of £100-150 added can be paid and closed, or can risk it going to court with it being recorded if found guilty.

I was very star struck (anxious in the face of rail authority!) and thought it was just a routine ticket inspection. I gave my ticket as normal and then I was just nodding along thinking all was well. My hearing aid batteries were deep in my suitcase and I didn't have the confidence to make them stop and wait for me to sort it. I was also close to my destination and didn't want to be accused of attempting to run away when I left. I just nodded and smiled half understanding.

They took my details just because they asked for ID. I didn't tell them anything verbally. They asked for ID and I just trusted it was something routine. I handed them my license and then next thing I knew I had a penalty fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

So you had a ticket, and they scanned it? This isn’t a valid reason for a Penalty Fare.

Please post a copy of your notice so we can see the reason given. (I am assuming you were given a Penalty Fare?) You should black out your personal details.

 

[Hadders]

It's very unusual for the barriers to be open at Stevenage in the early evening, in my experience.

Legally you must be in possession of a valid ticket before you board the train. If this wasn't the case then people would simply purchase a ticket when a ticket inspector appeared.

You've been issued with a Penalty Fare which is appropriate in cases like this. There's nothing to stop you appealing it, but ordinarily I wouldn't expect an appeal to succeed. There might be some technical reasons as to why the Penalty Fare wasn't valid but I will leave that for others to advise on.

 

[allypally]

Yes, they scanned the ticket. Their handset then bleeped and gave them validity code 62. They said the ticket was purchased after departure so it was invalid.

It's very unusual for the barriers to be open at Stevenage in the early evening, in my experience.

Legally you must be in possession of a valid ticket before you board the train. If this wasn't the case then people would simply purchase a ticket when a ticket inspector appeared.

You've been issued with a Penalty Fare which is appropriate in cases like this. There's nothing to stop you appealing it, but ordinarily I wouldn't expect an appeal to succeed. There might be some technical reasons as to why the Penalty Fare wasn't valid but I will leave that for others to advise on.

I promise I'm not jumping barriers! Yes, I completely understand I was wrong to step foot on the train without a ticket.

It's just

1. I presented a valid ticket at the time of inspection AND it was not part of an attempt of fare dodging or fraud etc
because I didnt even know inspectors were on board.

2. I didn't understand the penalty fare being issued because I couldn't hear what was happening

So you had a ticket, and they scanned it? This isn’t a valid reason for a Penalty Fare.

Please post a copy of your notice so we can see the reason given. (I am assuming you were given a Penalty Fare?) You should black out your personal details.

Pics added.

 

[Hadders]

I promise I'm not jumping barriers! Yes, I completely understand I was wrong to step foot on the train without a ticket.

At Stevenage did you enter the platforms via the barriers, or via the lift? There are no barriers to pass if you use the lift.

1. I presented a valid ticket at the time of inspection AND it was not part of an attempt of fare dodging or fraud etc
because I didnt even know inspectors were on board.

My view is the ticket is not valid if it is purchased after you board the train.

2. I didn't understand the penalty fare being issued because I couldn't hear what was happening

Did you tell the inspector that? This is important as they are required to make reasonable adjustments in such circumstances.

 

[allypally]

At Stevenage did you enter the platforms via the barriers, or via the lift? There are no barriers to pass if you use the lift.


My view is the ticket is not valid if it is purchased after you board the train.


Did you tell the inspector that? This is important as they are required to make reasonable adjustments in such circumstances.

1. I took the lift yes, but previous times I've been asked to show a ticket to get past here. This time I wasn't. This is how I got past the 'barrier line'.

2. Noted that buying after departure constitutes not buying a valid ticket. What did I buy then? Is that anytime ticket to allypally still valid then or does the fact I tried to use it for that trip invalidate it?

3. Yes I said I couldn't hear, let me get my aid, then I realised it had no battery power left and by that time with the nodding, I passed my id while moving to my suitcase and by that time I had a penalty issued.

Do you think it's worth appealing?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

On post #4 you stated ‘This was in the early evening. There were a couple of barriers open and I went through’
Now you say you actually used the lift, to bypass the barriers.
If I was wishing to board a train that was arriving imminently, there’s no way I would chance calling the lift, as the wait for it to arrive, and the slow descent would likely cause me to miss the train anyway

 

[swt_passenger]

My view is the ticket is not valid if it is purchased after you board the train.

I think the penalty fare regulations 2018 and as amended cover this, (as far as I understand them). It doesn't really stand out, but I think it’s covered in the way they define a valid ticket in the interpretation section:

(2) In these Regulations—
(a)any reference to a “valid travel ticket” is a reference to a travel ticket in a person’s possession which is valid for—
(i)the day and time of the journey that person is making, has made or intends to make;

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

To my mind, the second of those 3 parts means the ticket had to be valid between starting the journey and the point of inspection. If bought a few minutes into a journey it’s valid then, and in the future, but not at the start of the journey, the bit you’ve just done.

 

[allypally]

On post #4 you stated ‘This was in the early evening. There were a couple of barriers open and I went through’
Now you say you actually used the lift, to bypass the barriers.
If I was wishing to board a train that was arriving imminently, there’s no way I would chance calling the lift, as the wait for it to arrive, and the slow descent would likely cause me to miss the train anyway

Sorry I wasn't clear. I mean open as in available to use. Went through the barrier line as that's like a legal physical definition?

The trains I wanted to allypally were 1 HR frequency I think. I arrived with about less than 10 minutes. I took the lift because I had a suitcase. I then bought a ticket on my phone. It was a rush with a suitcase taking into account using a lift.

I think the penalty fare regulations 2018 and as amended cover this, (as far as I understand them). It doesn't really stand out, but I think it’s covered in the way they define a valid ticket in the interpretation section:

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

To my mind, the second of those 3 parts means the ticket had to be valid between starting the journey and the point of inspection. If bought a few minutes into a journey it’s valid then, and in the future, but not at the start of the journey, the bit you’ve just done.

It was an anytime day single along the route. The ticket started and ended at the correct stations and was the correct type (adult etc). That's what I understood validity to mean.
There were no shenanigans with the ticket itself, just it was purchased some minutes after departure.

Do you think it's worth an appeal? I've been reading similar threads on this forum but no definitive viewpoint emerges.

 

[TheJester]

You are required to have a valid ticket at the point of boarding the train.
Did you?

 

[allypally]

You are required to have a valid ticket at the point of boarding the train.
Did you?

No. The issue is whether a penalty fare is the correct legal vehicle to address this.
Penalty fares are for invalid tickets upon inspection etc. Thus, if buying the correct ticket type after departure invalidated the ticket for use for that journey, a penalty fare is applicable. If not, then the penalty fare is invalid.

This is what I'm curious about.

 

[AlterEgo]

You are required to have a valid ticket at the point of boarding the train.
Did you?

Not relevant here. That a ticket was purchased after boarding does not make that invalid. For example, had they come across a guard, who sold them a ticket on the train, are you really arguing that the ticket they sell would be invalid because of a separate offence the OP committed at the start of their journey? That the ticket sold would, in fact, be no good for travel? At all? Surely not.

It may be that the OP committed an offence, but again, fortunately for them, and too bad for the RPI, the incompetence of that RPI means that instead of reporting them, they chose to issue a Penalty Fare, entirely without merit.

The OP should follow the advice in this thread, which is a carbon copy of their own issue: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-id-be-grateful-for-your-help-please.265143/

They presented a valid ticket for inspection and no Penalty Fare can be issued. The appeal will succeed on this basis alone.

I think the penalty fare regulations 2018 and as amended cover this, (as far as I understand them). It doesn't really stand out, but I think it’s covered in the way they define a valid ticket in the interpretation section:

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

To my mind, the second of those 3 parts means the ticket had to be valid between starting the journey and the point of inspection. If bought a few minutes into a journey it’s valid then, and in the future, but not at the start of the journey, the bit you’ve just done.

The "has made" part is referring to someone being PF'd at the end of their journey, at, say, a barrier line.

The OP presented a valid ticket for inspection. It was valid for the whole of the journey they had made, and were about to make.

 

[allypally]

Thanks for the replies all.

I am in no way bitter etc about any of this. On the one hand, I broke the law by boarding. On the other, all the correct monies were settled with the operator prior to inspection and prior to my knowledge of there being an inspection. I also did not jump any barriers etc.

I will just appeal and see what happens. I'll report back here afterwards. If anyone has any advice over the weekend before I submit the appeal I would appreciate it.

 

[Hadders]

Sorry I wasn't clear. I mean open as in available to use. Went through the barrier line as that's like a legal physical definition?

You wouldn't go through the barriers if you used the lift at Stevenage.

I arrived with about less than 10 minutes.

That's plenty of time to purchase a ticket at Stevenage station. There's six ticket machines and the ticket office would probably been open. I regularly arrive at Stevenage station with less than five minutes to spare, purchase a ticket from the ticket machines and walk to the far end of the platform - and that's often at the busiest time of the morning peak.

I was sat facing away in the last carriage

You were in a rush yet managed to get to the last carriage (which does not line up with the llift at Stevenage)

No. The issue is whether a penalty fare is the correct legal vehicle to address this.
Penalty fares are for invalid tickets upon inspection etc. Thus, if buying the correct ticket type after departure invalidated the ticket for use for that journey, a penalty fare is applicable. If not, then the penalty fare is invalid.

This is what I'm curious about.

There's nothing to lose by appealing against the Penalty Fare, in many ways it is advantageous to do so.

In some respects you were fortunate to be issued with a Penalty Fare. Had the inspector have taken your details for further investigation then we wouldn't be arguing over the minutiae of the Penalty Fare Regulations - you'd have been asking for our advice in writing a letter to arrange an out of court settlement.

There is an interesting discussion to be had about the wording of the Penalty Fare Regulations and the fact that tickets that are valid, other than being purchased after the train has departed, can be bought using a mobile device while on the train. Clearly this situation wasn't envisaged when the regulations were drafted - the only options you had then were to purchase a ticket from a ticket machine or ticket office or collect a ticket purchased online from a ticket machine. This discussion needs to take place ina separate thread to avoid taking this thread off-topic.

 

[Pushpit]

Do you think it's worth an appeal? I've been reading similar threads on this forum but no definitive viewpoint emerges.

I would say it's worth an appeal since that also stops prosecution. I don't think there is much doubt that you are in scope for prosecution, there is a debate - above - on whether you had a valid ticket at the point of inspection or not. If it was valid at the point of inspection then the penalty fare seems questionable.

I do find it odd that a ticket is invalid if purchased on a train. If this is the case then the retailers need to say this before the consumer commits funds, and as far as I know this does not happen. I get that an offence is created by boarding a train without a ticket (subject to exclusions that don't apply here). But it seems perverse to not remedy that defect by paying the fare that is and was due, and at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

. A criminal record is automatic termination with my job.

I don't think anyone has commented specifically on this point, but (subject to any precise wording in your contract/ working terms) a penalty fare doesn't give you a criminal record in that you won't have been anywhere near the court.

But as has been mentioned, a properly presented appeal (to the address given on the penalty fare notice, within the stated time limit) will block the railway from prosecuting you, even if the appeal is unsuccessful. This may be a further reason for appealing and giving reassurance on the employment position.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Further to @Hadders’ comments, not only would there appear to have been plenty of time to purchase a ticket from the station facilities, but to have purchased it online before departure too.

So I think this all depends on the interpretation of a valid ticket as a technical argument - there doesn’t appear any good reason why a ticket wasn’t purchased before departure (not that insufficient time is ever a reason that is likely to be accepted as a cause).

 

[Belperpete]

I will just appeal and see what happens. I'll report back here afterwards. If anyone has any advice over the weekend before I submit the appeal I would appreciate it.

In your appeal, when you explain the situation, you are going to be admitting to breaking the law. In view of your situation, you need to be absolutely certain that your admission of guilt cannot be used against you.

 

[Brissle Girl]

In your appeal, when you explain the situation, you are going to be admitting to breaking the law. In view of your situation, you need to be absolutely certain that your admission of guilt cannot be used against you.

Once a PF is appealed the TOC cannot pursue a criminal case, so I think that is a very low risk.

 

[Belperpete]

Had the inspector have taken your details for further investigation then we wouldn't be arguing over the minutiae of the Penalty Fare Regulations - you'd have been asking for our advice in writing a letter to arrange an out of court settlement.

The inspector did take his details (see post #4).

Once a PF is appealed the TOC cannot pursue a criminal case, so I think that is a very low risk.

They cannot persue a criminal case for the offence for which the invalid penalty fare was issued. But if the OP has admitted to breaking the law, he more than most needs to be absolutely certain that there is nothing else they can get him for.

 

[Hadders]

The inspector did take his details (see post #4).


They cannot persue a criminal case for the offence for which the invalid penalty fare was issued. But if the OP has admitted to breaking the law, he more than most needs to be absolutely certain that there is nothing else they can get him for.

My view is this is highly unlikely.

There is nothing to lose if the OP appeals but should the OP be unsuccessful then I would advise paying the Penalty Fare to resolve the matter.

 

[AlterEgo]

On post #4 you stated ‘This was in the early evening. There were a couple of barriers open and I went through’
Now you say you actually used the lift, to bypass the barriers.
If I was wishing to board a train that was arriving imminently, there’s no way I would chance calling the lift, as the wait for it to arrive, and the slow descent would likely cause me to miss the train anyway

None of this is relevant or helpful and we are going round in circles again. The OP prevented a valid ticket and the appeal succeeds on this alone. That is all there is to this case.

I do find it odd that a ticket is invalid if purchased on a train.

It's not true, and can't possibly be if you give it more than a moment's thought.

 

[allypally]

In your appeal, when you explain the situation, you are going to be admitting to breaking the law. In view of your situation, you need to be absolutely certain that your admission of guilt cannot be used against you.

My understanding that this is in reference to the exclusions from prosecution that come after the first appeal decision in the relevant law. So what you mean is that if I essentially have to admit to breaking one of these laws to appeal the penalty to then get immunity from being prosecuted under these laws, then I need to be certain I didn't do anything criminal but NOT under these laws because they might pursue me for those other offences.

What is this in practice though? Assault/theft/etc? Just other general crimes they might look to check I didn't commit at the same time? Or is there some particularity about tickets I won't be immune from?

The inspector did take his details (see post #4).


They cannot persue a criminal case for the offence for which the invalid penalty fare was issued. But if the OP has admitted to breaking the law, he more than most needs to be absolutely certain that there is nothing else they can get him for.

Yes, the inspector asked for ID. I didn't question why and I wasn't following what she was saying but I just thought it was something routine. (I probably trust authority too much!).

I just gave my driving license.

The inspector explicitly said that they were issuing a penalty fare and not prosecuting.

 

[Belperpete]

The inspector explicitly said that they were issuing a penalty fare and not prosecuting.

I'm sorry, previously you said your hearing aid battery was completely dead, and you were just nodding along to everything he said. Now you claim to know exactly what the inspector said?

This is the first you have mentioned about the inspector explicitly saying that they weren't going to prosecute. That in itself should make you immune to prosecution. However, trying to claim that while also claiming that you couldn't hear what the inspector was saying might prove interesting in court!

In my view, you did have a valid ticket. The offence that you committed was to deliberately travel without any ticket. The ticket that you presented was evidence that you had purchased it after boarding, and therefore prior to that you had been intentionally and knowingly travelling without a ticket. You corroborated your intention to only purchase a ticket after boarding when you told the inspector that your on-board purchase had been delayed by poor signal when the train was passing through tunnels (post #4).

I note that you have also told us that you didn't say anything verbally to the inspector. So how did you explain the poor signal to him? If you are going to appeal, I strongly advise you to get your story straight before you do!

You have also told us that you were purchasing the ticket "normally". This suggests that you have done this before. If so, you may want to consider the advisability of drawing attention to yourself.

 

[AlterEgo]

As soon as the PF is appealed the TOC is staute barred from prosecuting. Please stop all of this pettifogging about the simplest of penalty fare appeals! From the legislation:

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

A TOC cannot bring any offence under

(a)section 5(3)(a) or (b) of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889(1);

(b)any byelaw made under—

(i)section 67 of the Transport Act 1962(2);

(ii)section 129 of the Railways Act 1993(3);

(iii)section 219 of the Transport Act 2000(4);

(iv)section 46 of the Railways Act 2005(5).



This encompasses (iii) the Railway Bylaws, which contains the offence the OP committed:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas​

1. in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

It’s very simple! Appeal the PF on the abundantly simple basis that a valid travel ticket was shown, and this protects the OP from prosecution and is a ground certain to succeed anyway.

 

[greyman42]

This encompasses (iii) the Railway Bylaws, which contains the offence the OP committed:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas​

1. in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

What if it was not possible to buy a ticket. For example; no ticket office or suitable ticket machine?

 

[L401CJF]

What if it was not possible to buy a ticket. For example; no ticket office or suitable ticket machine?

Then under section 18.3 they wouldn't have committed an offence:

18.3
3. no person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

1. there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey or
2. there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket or
3. an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket