Ticket Retention

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New to this jolly interesting forum, so apologies if this is a previously/much asked question:

The National Conditions of Carriage clearly state that 'Tickets remain the property of the relevant railway company'. Does that entitle a ticket inspector from a TOC (other than the TOC that issued your ticket) to retain your ticket when you reach the destination?

Sometimes I've wished to retain my ticket (possibly I forgot to get a receipt for expense purposes) which has generally proved straight forward, but from time to time a ticket inspector will absolutely insist on taking your ticket off you.
 
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Failed Unit

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New to this jolly interesting forum, so apologies if this is a previously/much asked question:

The National Conditions of Carriage clearly state that 'Tickets remain the property of the relevant railway company'. Does that entitle a ticket inspector from a TOC (other than the TOC that issued your ticket) to retain your ticket when you reach the destination?

Sometimes I've wished to retain my ticket (possibly I forgot to get a receipt for expense purposes) which has generally proved straight forward, but from time to time a ticket inspector will absolutely insist on taking your ticket off you.
They have that right. I guess there are other ways to prove to work the price of the ticket such as a printout from the website.

We still have ways of claiming back oyster, although is different but they will accept the online printout.
 

Urban Gateline

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Most barrier staff are understanding though and will let you keep a ticket if you need it. In such a scenario I just make a tear through part of the mag strip or simply write on the ticket with a black permanent marker that it's been used. If it is a day return then no problem, some staff are just worried about open returns being used again if not collected or invalidated!
 

stut

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Technically yes, they can be retained, but in a decade of business travel on the railways, I've not once had a problem in keeping a ticket for an expense claim.

(Including when I dozily, at 5am, managed to put an expensive ticket into an exit barrier which quite rightfully retained it, and the gateline staff incredibly helfpfully fished it out for me.)
 

4SRKT

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I've never had a gateline assistant refuse to allow me to hold onto a ticket if I want to keep it. One at St Pancras (pleasantly) said I really should get a receipt next time, but let me through anyway. This is the only time any of them have done anything other than wave me through.
 

island

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The problem is that most TISs don't enumerate the journeys fully whereas the ticket does. If I recall correctly, Shere will specify all the journeys, Tribute will specify the first ticket in the basket and add "and other journeys", and Star will just print the number of tickets. Don't know about Cubic. And TVMs will just give the number of tickets as well.

Many employers will not accept the receipt unless it has the full details (origin/destination/ticket type/class) printed on, and not unreasonably. Mine will accept an online booking printout with no tickets (we're supposed to use thetrainline business "unless another method is cheaper", which of course is trivially true). For purchases at the station the original ticket is required.
 

Failed Unit

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The problem is that most TISs don't enumerate the journeys fully whereas the ticket does. If I recall correctly, Shere will specify all the journeys, Tribute will specify the first ticket in the basket and add "and other journeys", and Star will just print the number of tickets. Don't know about Cubic. And TVMs will just give the number of tickets as well.

Many employers will not accept the receipt unless it has the full details (origin/destination/ticket type/class) printed on, and not unreasonably. Mine will accept an online booking printout with no tickets (we're supposed to use thetrainline business "unless another method is cheaper", which of course is trivially true). For purchases at the station the original ticket is required.
I turn this the other way and tell them they are only getting the collection reciept as the ticket is taken by the barrier. But I know some are very untrusting of thier employees. Hmrc only requires a collection reciept as evidence.
 

W-on-Sea

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My employers request the receipt - even though from TVMs all it usually says is the cost, and the station where it was printed, in preference to the ticket (which contains far more useful information) ; for Oyster no "evidence" is required: it's done on trust.
 

Zoe

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I once had a collection of old tickets taken off me at Taunton. I handed my ticket for the journey to the inspector but then he noticed all the old tickets I had and told me that they had to be disposed of after the journey is completed and took them off me.
 

Failed Unit

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I once had a collection of old tickets taken off me at Taunton. I handed my ticket for the journey to the inspector but then he noticed all the old tickets I had and told me that they had to be disposed of after the journey is completed and took them off me.
They joys of no barriers, I also often get quite a collection before I chuck them away. Although I don't know if barriers ever swallow season tickets. I normally buy in advance so often have overlapping tickets.

But back to business it is pot luck if the underground station retains the ticket. Normally buy destination u1 saves me reclaiming the oyster - very lazy of me.
 

Failed Unit

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If I remember rightly, in the 60's, each time we arrived at Par Station, the Ticket office clerk stood in the doorway, and collected everyone's used tickets.
It was the same at Market Rasen until the mid 80s. BR took the view the loss of revenue risk was less than employing someone at the ticket office. It was open all day back then.
 

SussexMan

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The National Conditions of Carriage clearly state that 'Tickets remain the property of the relevant railway company'. Does that entitle a ticket inspector from a TOC (other than the TOC that issued your ticket) to retain your ticket when you reach the destination?
Has anyone got any thoughts on the actual question posed by the OP though?
 

AndyLandy

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New to this jolly interesting forum, so apologies if this is a previously/much asked question:

The National Conditions of Carriage clearly state that 'Tickets remain the property of the relevant railway company'. Does that entitle a ticket inspector from a TOC (other than the TOC that issued your ticket) to retain your ticket when you reach the destination?

Sometimes I've wished to retain my ticket (possibly I forgot to get a receipt for expense purposes) which has generally proved straight forward, but from time to time a ticket inspector will absolutely insist on taking your ticket off you.
I've had a couple of occasions where barrier staff have stubbornly refused to let me keep my ticket. Occasionally I'll get someone pointing out that they're "The property of the railway", but will still let me keep them. Recently at Chester though, the guy on the barriers simply wouldn't let me.

The thing I don't understand is why they make such a fuss over it? Sure, they have the right to retain tickets. They also have the 'right' to choose not to. There are plenty of places where you can leave without surrendering your ticket, so it's not like it's a real problem. If they're worried about re-use, you simply invalidate the ticket on exit. I'm quite happy if the barrier staff wants to put a tear through the mag-stripe and mark the ticket to show it's used. I just want to hang on to the ticket.
 

142094

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Has anyone got any thoughts on the actual question posed by the OP though?
Yes, as they will be an 'authorised person' or words to that effect. In reality it doesn't really matter which TOC sold you the ticket, or which TOC you travelled on. At Leeds the barriers are manned by Northern staff, including the small entrance only open during the morning peak, and they will take tickets off any traveller, not only those who have travelled by Northern.
 

6Gman

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I've had a couple of occasions where barrier staff have stubbornly refused to let me keep my ticket. Occasionally I'll get someone pointing out that they're "The property of the railway", but will still let me keep them. Recently at Chester though, the guy on the barriers simply wouldn't let me.

The thing I don't understand is why they make such a fuss over it? Sure, they have the right to retain tickets. .
Back in the late 60s/ early 70s it was not uncommon to find pouches lying around on stations addressed to "Audit Office, Derby" stuffed full of used tickets. A great find for enthusiasts wanting to start a ticket collection!

I often wondered what sort of poor soul was employed to sort millions of bits of card!
 

AndyLandy

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Yes, as they will be an 'authorised person' or words to that effect. In reality it doesn't really matter which TOC sold you the ticket, or which TOC you travelled on. At Leeds the barriers are manned by Northern staff, including the small entrance only open during the morning peak, and they will take tickets off any traveller, not only those who have travelled by Northern.
Except that the terms explicitly state "Remains the property of the issuing TOC." I suspect the answer really is that any 'authorised person' can retain a ticket, but that's not the actual wording of the terms.

That also raises a question "If I bought from RedSpottedHanky or TheTrainLine, who is the issuing TOC?"
 

91101

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NRCOC Refers to "relevant train company" not issuing train company. There would arguably be a case that if you travel on EC to Leeds Northern have no right to retain your ticket, unless EC have granted them that power?
 

Welshman

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Back in the late 60s/ early 70s it was not uncommon to find pouches lying around on stations addressed to "Audit Office, Derby" stuffed full of used tickets. A great find for enthusiasts wanting to start a ticket collection!

I often wondered what sort of poor soul was employed to sort millions of bits of card!
I used to be friendly with a ticket collector at Halifax station in the 1960s, and he once showed me how all the tickets collected - singles, return halves [cheap day and period] etc - all Edmondson type - had to be cancelled with a special punch, sorted and bundled-up with string, then wrapped up [usually in the day before's newspaper] and sent off to an audit office in Newcastle.

Like you, I often wondered what on earth they did with them all there!

Then, in those days, there were no delay compensation schemes. If your train was late, you just grumbled loudly!
 

WelshBluebird

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I turn this the other way and tell them they are only getting the collection reciept as the ticket is taken by the barrier. But I know some are very untrusting of thier employees. Hmrc only requires a collection reciept as evidence.
But at the end of the day, it is not likely you will be able to change your employers policies.
And for many employers, that is for you to give them to actual ticket.
No ticket - no expenses claimed back.
 

AndyLandy

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But at the end of the day, it is not likely you will be able to change your employers policies.
And for many employers, that is for you to give them to actual ticket.
No ticket - no expenses claimed back.
Of more relevance is that the train operators often require a ticket when you're making a refund claim. So it's their expectation that you'll hang on to the ticket upon arrival so you can submit it for a claim. An interesting dichotomy there. Some of the more cynical amongst us might suggest that mandatory ticket collection might be to help cut down on submitted claim forms...
 

Skymonster

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I turn this the other way and tell them they are only getting the collection reciept as the ticket is taken by the barrier.
Another case of rail employees clinging to pointless and archaic rules that just make things more difficult for normal passengers. What's so difficult in cancelling the ticket and letting the passenger through the barrier if they need the ticket for an expense claim? Whilst some rail staff will no doubt say "But it's the rules" the employee needing the ticket to make an expense claim also has to work within their rules.

Fortunately this is one area where EMT seem to have seen sense - at Nottingham there are signs at the barriers saying "If you need to retain your ticket please contact a member of staff before passing through the barrier" - by implication allowing passengers to keep their tickets if needs be. What's so hard that all stations / TOCs / rail employees can't embrace that concept?

Andy
 

AndyLandy

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Fortunately this is one area where EMT seem to have seen sense - at Nottingham there are signs at the barriers saying "If you need to retain your ticket please contact a member of staff before passing through the barrier" - by implication allowing passengers to keep their tickets if needs be. What's so hard that all stations / TOCs / rail employees can't embrace that concept?
Quoted for Truth.

In fact, I don't understand why we don't have barriers that can automatically invalidate a ticket and return it to you. This alone would reduce my contempt for ticket gates massively!
 

Urban Gateline

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Quoted for Truth.

In fact, I don't understand why we don't have barriers that can automatically invalidate a ticket and return it to you. This alone would reduce my contempt for ticket gates massively!
Well not everyone wants to keep their ticket, so what do you propose with all those passengers who then dump it on the floor metres after passing through the barriers because they didn't want it back? I think the system is good as it is, if you want to keep the ticket then simply ask and 99% of staff have no problem in letting you through if the ticket is valid!
 

AndyLandy

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Well not everyone wants to keep their ticket, so what do you propose with all those passengers who then dump it on the floor metres after passing through the barriers because they didn't want it back? I think the system is good as it is, if you want to keep the ticket then simply ask and 99% of staff have no problem in letting you through if the ticket is valid!
A "used tickets" bin just after the barrier? That seems to work for Tyne & Wear Metro. Sadly, my own personal experiences have been considerably less than 99% with barrier staff allowing me to retain my ticket.
 

AlterEgo

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Some of the more cynical amongst us might suggest that mandatory ticket collection might be to help cut down on submitted claim forms...
I don't know of a single TOC that will refuse a complaint or Delay Repay claim provided you either give them a photocopy of the ticket, or proof of purchase in lieu of the physical ticket.
 

AndyLandy

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I don't know of a single TOC that will refuse a complaint or Delay Repay claim provided you either give them a photocopy of the ticket, or proof of purchase in lieu of the physical ticket.
Ahh, that's interesting. I didn't know that (or at least it never occurred to me that it might be an option to do that.)
 

Skymonster

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I don't know of a single TOC that will refuse a complaint or Delay Repay claim provided you either give them a photocopy of the ticket, or proof of purchase in lieu of the physical ticket.
Well if I buy a ticket at the station before I travel I'm hardly likely to be able to copy it... And here's one TOCs requirements for delay repay:

To enable us to process your claim, simply complete this form and enclose the ticket for the journey you are claiming against and post it to us. No stamp is required. No other correspondence can be entered into using this form. Please note that we cannot return tickets sent with this form. Please keep a copy of your ticket for reference purposes.
And another:

Send us your ticket

Please remember to send your ticket along with your compensation for delays form, so we can process your claim as soon as possible.
Andy
 
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