Ticket Scanners

[tomoufc]

Moderator note - split from:

Caught with invalid ticket on Wycombe to Bicester journey

Hello lovely people I need some advice I bought a wrong ticket from Bicester to high Wycombe while travelling from Wycombe to Bicester Upon challenged , I bought a ticket from Chiltern railway app and showed to the inspector , and since I made a mistake I said I am happy to pay the fine ...

www.railforums.co.uk

Is it actually true that ticket scanners can tell the ticket was purchased after the train departs? I bet a lot of people buy a ticket this way (either because in a rush, or realising they had the wrong ticket), but I've never seen anyone pulled up on it.

 

[skyhigh]

Is it actually true that ticket scanners can tell the ticket was purchased after the train departs?

Yes.

 

[tomoufc]

Yes.

Thanks. How do you know that, out of interest?

 

[skyhigh]

Thanks. How do you know that, out of interest?

Because the ticket scanner I used to use would alert you, and from speaking to staff at other companies theirs did too. It's also previously been confirmed on here by others.

 

[tomoufc]

Because the ticket scanner I used to use would alert you, and from speaking to staff at other companies theirs did too. It's also previously been confirmed on here by others.

Fair enough. In practice, how often did you raise this with passengers when you saw such an alert?

 

[Krokodil]

The devices I use aren't clever enough to compare the purchase time with the departure time, but they do tell you what time the ticket was purchased, and the human brain can then go "hang on, we left there five minutes before that".

Of course in this era of Advance Purchase on Departure (APoD) where even short distances have Advance tickets available until around 5 minutes before departure, it is quite likely that a ticket purchased after departure won't be valid on that particular train anyway so will be rejected by the device.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Fair enough. In practice, how often did you raise this with passengers when you saw such an alert?

All the time, even if just to point out that they are wrong to do so despite me not taking the matter further

 

[158801]

Train departs 12:00, ticket purchased 12:10, I check ticket at 12:30 - action = nothing

Train departs at 12:00, ticket purchased 12:29, I check ticket at 12:30 - action =
a) Customer holds a full fare undiscounted ticket - I will warn them
b) customer holds a off peak ticket or a railcard discounted ticket - I will make them buy a new full fare, anytime, undiscounted ticket

 

[Hadders]

We frequently get people on here asking for assistance who have purchased tickets after the train has departed. It seems to me that they buy the ticket once a ticket inspector appears in the carriage.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

We frequently get people on here asking for assistance who have purchased tickets after the train has departed. It seems to me that they buy the ticket once a ticket inspector appears in the carriage.

Almost always the purchase time on the ticket is within 2-3 minutes of when I scan it.

 

[bakerstreet]

On this subject, it has made me think about a circumstance I am often in.

I buy an e-ticket CDR from Waterloo to Woking return.

I’m travelling OUT from Surbiton (starting short) but am returning to Waterloo.

Assume Surbiton gates are open and no entry scan.

Train departs Waterloo at say 1700.
I board at Surbiton say 1720 having purchased ticket at 1715

My ticket therefore is purchased 15 mins after the train’s departure from Waterloo but 5 mins prior to my boarding at Surbiton.

Will the guards reader flag this as an issue?

If so what steps might I need to take to protect from that issue.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Yes, it would flag as purchased after departure given it was indeed purchased after the departure time of the origin station.

I don't know how that TOC would deal with it, but I'd imagine you'd need to explain why it was purchased late, and then for the wrong starting station.

How to protect against that scenario? Purchase before the train left the origin station of the ticket, or buy for the station you actually use prior to the train arriving. Maybe purchased before leaving the house, many people do.

 

[bakerstreet]

Yes, it would flag as purchased after departure given it was indeed purchased after the departure time of the origin station.

I don't know how that TOC would deal with it, but I'd imagine you'd need to explain why it was purchased late, and then for the wrong starting station.

How to protect against that scenario? Purchase before the train left the origin station of the ticket, or buy for the station you actually use prior to the train arriving. Maybe purchased before leaving the house, many people do.

Thanks. It’s never been an issue thus far because I buy on paper. But that won’t always be possible.

 

[tspaul26]

Train departs 12:00, ticket purchased 12:10, I check ticket at 12:30 - action = nothing

Train departs at 12:00, ticket purchased 12:29, I check ticket at 12:30 - action =
a) Customer holds a full fare undiscounted ticket - I will warn them
b) customer holds a off peak ticket or a railcard discounted ticket - I will make them buy a new full fare, anytime, undiscounted ticket

I am curious: what is your legal basis for b)?

 

[mikeg]

Surely if the customer was smart enough and there was a station between they could just say they were starting short? I wonder how many people using cheaper to go further tickets have been wrongly reported? The right to use such tickets even at short notice must be defended.

 

[30907]

I am curious: what is your legal basis for b)?

The question occurred to me - I can't see one, but the customer might reasonably prefer it to being reported. ISTR it was the practice on operators that tolerated onboard purchases though?

Surely if the customer was smart enough and there was a station between they could just say they were starting short? I wonder how many people using cheaper to go further tickets have been wrongly reported? The right to use such tickets even at short notice must be defended.

Indeed, but I don't recall any such case on here over many years.

 

[Failed Unit]

Train departs 12:00, ticket purchased 12:10, I check ticket at 12:30 - action = nothing

Train departs at 12:00, ticket purchased 12:29, I check ticket at 12:30 - action =
a) Customer holds a full fare undiscounted ticket - I will warn them
b) customer holds a off peak ticket or a railcard discounted ticket - I will make them buy a new full fare, anytime, undiscounted ticket

That is nice to see to be honest,

I was once travelling from Market Rasen - Cleethorpes. I can't remember which mobile network I was on at the time but I couldn't buy a ticket at the station because it wasn't strong enough. So it was about Barnetby before I got a signal strong enough to complete the transaction (15 minutes in). I know that example isn't in a penalty fare area, but there are many examples where an e-ticket can't be purchased because of mobile phone signal issues that user may not be aware of (Hadley wood springs to mind) where you may be 5 minutes into your journey before you get a signal.

I know you can ask why don't you purchase before you get on the platform, but in many areas of the UK you don't want to buy a ticket until you can see the trian in case it doesn't turn up or you can't physically board it. (Which I also understand is against the bye-laws)

 

[bkhtele]

National Rail conditions of travel say "
9.2.1 To charge you the full undiscounted “anytime” single fare to a station
directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any
discounts or special terms, or to a Ticket to a station other than one served
by the train that you are on; or
9.2.2 To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see Condition
10 below); or
9.2.3 To report you for prosecution.
In a penalty fare area it is buy before you board.

 

[Krokodil]

Will the guards reader flag this as an issue?

I doubt that it'll be a problem. Waterloo of course is barriered so guards won't be on the lookout for people buying when challenged from there

 

[tspaul26]

National Rail conditions of travel say "
9.2.1 To charge you the full undiscounted “anytime” single fare to a station
directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any
discounts or special terms, or to a Ticket to a station other than one served
by the train that you are on; or
9.2.2 To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see Condition
10 below); or
9.2.3 To report you for prosecution.
In a penalty fare area it is buy before you board.

You have missed off the incipit of the clause which sets out various pre-conditions before these sub-clauses are engaged.

Scenario b) in post #8 above does not prima facie satisfy those pre-conditions which is why I asked after the legal basis for charging such a passenger a fresh undiscounted Anytime fare.

 

[island]

You have missed off the incipit of the clause which sets out various pre-conditions before these sub-clauses are engaged.

Scenario b) in post #8 above does not prima facie satisfy those pre-conditions which is why I asked after the legal basis for charging such a passenger a fresh undiscounted Anytime fare.

I don't think there is an explicit legal basis, but as outcomes go that would be less severe for the passenger than being reported for prosecution.

 

[tspaul26]

I don't think there is an explicit legal basis, but as outcomes go that would be less severe for the passenger than being reported for prosecution.

It’s interesting because if a TOC had indeed adopted this approach as a matter of policy then that would begin straying into abuse of process territory.

Legally quite iffy, I think (to use a technical term).

 

[dragonfly4]

Because the ticket scanner I used to use would alert you, and from speaking to staff at other companies theirs did too. It's also previously been confirmed on here by others.

Would it also alert you if the ticket was bought for a train that's supposed to depart in like 1 hour? Say you're checking at 7PM, but ticket was purchased for a train that leaves that station only at 8PM? it would still be off-peak so same price. Would there be any issues with this?
Just to clarify, ticket is checked at 7pm, it shows when checked that it was purchased 6.58pm but for a train that leaves at 8pm. I am guessing it would be some sort of warning at least from inspector?

 

[alex17595]

As long as your ticket was purchased before the train you are on departed the station no warning would come up on the screen. Our ticket scanners take no account of which train was selected at point of purchase for flexible tickets, only advances.

 

[furlong]

It’s interesting because if a TOC had indeed adopted this approach as a matter of policy then that would begin straying into abuse of process territory.

I'd argue that that behaviour would be:
(a) a breach of the TSA - the obligation to carry - for which the DfT would be expected to take action against the train company; and
(b) a breach of the consumer regulations - tricking a passenger into buying a ticket they didn't require - which if done knowingly has the potential to constitute a criminal offence.

10-1 (1) An Operator is bound to carry on its trains each Purchaser of a Fare, in accordance with its terms, for the whole or any part of the journey for which the Fare entitles him to use those trains.

 

[scrapy]

I doubt that it'll be a problem. Waterloo of course is barriered so guards won't be on the lookout for people buying when challenged from there

I would actually expect a number of people buying when challenged. There will be those who short fare to get through the barriers (eg ticket to Vauxhall even if the train doesn't stop there). They then have a ticket to their actual destination in their basket ready to pay if an inspector enters the carriage.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I would actually expect a number of people buying when challenged. There will be those who short fare to get through the barriers (eg ticket to Vauxhall even if the train doesn't stop there). They then have a ticket to their actual destination in their basket ready to pay if an inspector enters the carriage.

Which won’t work, as the scanner will read the time of purchase and highlight that it was bought after the train departed, so isn’t valid.

 

[scrapy]

Which won’t work, as the scanner will read the time of purchase and highlight that it was bought after the train departed, so isn’t valid.

I know, I was responding to a post suggesting people won't buy when challenged from Waterloo. The majority of fare dodgers probably don't know how the machines work. It does also depend on how the machine is setup as to what information it gives out.

 

[185]

Train departs 12:00, ticket purchased 12:10, I check ticket at 12:30 - action = nothing

Train departs at 12:00, ticket purchased 12:29, I check ticket at 12:30 - action =

c) Customer holds any ticket purchased after departure seconds earlier coz omgz here's the guard quick buy now omg omg

action =

99% of the time, screenshot ticket data & forward in an email to company's digital fraud team for further investigation, reason code either i) short fare / doughnutting, ii) paying when challenged or both.