Tickets where the Railcard is changed

[SirAlf]

Hope you good people can advise, I could ask East Midlands Trains but whenever I contact them via their website the person at the other end doesn’t understand the question and gives me a prepared answer, usually to a totally different question

I will be booking two Advance tickets Chesterfield to St Pancras and back for Mrs Wife and me, with our Two Together Railcard. It is possible that my wife won’t be able to travel, she has an illness and we can’t predict how well she will be weeks from now. But if she can’t go then she tells me that I have to still do the journey

I have a Senior Railcard and AFAIK this gets exactly the same discount as a Two Together Railcard. So would I be justified in expecting EMT to honour my ticket, travelling alone with my Senior Railcard? After all I have paid for two tickets and then just used one of them. And if so then how do I talk to a real person at EMT, not their call centre, to get them to agree to this?

 

[yorkie]

Hope you good people can advise, I could ask East Midlands Trains but whenever I contact them via their website the person at the other end doesn’t understand the question and gives me a prepared answer, usually to a totally different question

This sort of experience is not as uncommon as it should be. You're in the right place now!

I will be booking two Advance tickets Chesterfield to St Pancras and back for Mrs Wife and me, with our Two Together Railcard. It is possible that my wife won’t be able to travel, she has an illness and we can’t predict how well she will be weeks from now. But if she can’t go then she tells me that I have to still do the journey

Ah, that could be tricky..

I have a Senior Railcard and AFAIK this gets exactly the same discount as a Two Together Railcard. So would I be justified in expecting EMT to honour my ticket, travelling alone with my Senior Railcard? After all I have paid for two tickets and then just used one of them. And if so then how do I talk to a real person at EMT, not their call centre, to get them to agree to this?

Do you live near a staffed EMT station? If so I'd ask if it's possible to change the railcard discount. However, depending on the capabilities of the ticket issuing system (TIS) used by that company, and depending on company policies, I am not sure if it would be possible. Failing that, it's possible you may be able to be issued with some sort of station stamp authorising the change. If a station won't do it, try e-mailing Customer Services (this gives you a reference number, which the chat feature of their website probably won't, this reference number can be used to escalate the matter if required).


I find the T&Cs of 2 Together Railcards to be overly onerous; it should be made clear that if one passenger cannot go, the remaining ticket should still be valid providing it is presented both with the other ticket and, of course, the Railcard. I can see no good reason why that isn't the case.

In practice, showing both Railcards, both tickets, and explaining the situation (plus any relevant documentation/letter from a Doctor might help) then you are very likely to be 'shown discretion' by the Guard on the day.

 

[greatkingrat]

Strictly speaking the tickets are not valid. You would need to return the original tickets for a refund (less Admin fee), then purchase a new ticket with the Senior Railcard.

In practice, if you have both tickets plus the railcard in your possession and explain the situation the vast majority of guards will have no problem with it, but I doubt you will get EMT to give you written permission to travel in advance.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hope you good people can advise, I could ask East Midlands Trains but whenever I contact them via their website the person at the other end doesn’t understand the question and gives me a prepared answer, usually to a totally different question....

That's not unexpected. Helpdesk and web support staff seem to get less training than frontline staff (and that is saying something).

....I have a Senior Railcard and AFAIK this gets exactly the same discount as a Two Together Railcard. So would I be justified in expecting EMT to honour my ticket, travelling alone with my Senior Railcard? After all I have paid for two tickets and then just used one of them. ...

Officially you don't have a valid ticket to travel on your own, so options might include seeing if a station will change it (they are under no obligation to do so), or chance your ticket with the Guard. Many Guards show discretion when the wrong railcard is held but the right price is paid, especially if you are carrying both sets of tickets and pass the attitude test, but not all do and so this does come with a degree of risk.

....And if so then how do I talk to a real person at EMT, not their call centre, to get them to agree to this?

Visit an EMT station.

 

[Romilly]

This previous thread gives a flavour of the views on this issue:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110142

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Strictly speaking the tickets are not valid. You would need to return the original tickets for a refund (less Admin fee), then purchase a new ticket with the Senior Railcard....

Advance ticket = No refund.

 

[najaB]

Advance ticket = No refund.

They can, however, be amended.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW, the OP says "about to book" - thus he would be best advised to book one with the Senior Railcard and one without.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

They can, however, be amended.

There are limits to what can be amended so I'd say that's a pretty flimsy argument.

 

[sheff1]

Depending how much the Advances are and what time of day you are travelling then booking a walk up fare on the day (or the day before if you want reservations) might be a better option.

If you can travel at Superoffpeak times (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket_types/restrictions/CI) the fare is only £49.15 with a railcard which, in my experience, is often around the same (or sometimes less than) the cost of an Advance each way.

 

[najaB]

There are limits to what can be amended so I'd say that's a pretty flimsy argument.

I agree it's not a strong case, but it does show that Advance tickets aren't carved into stone at the time of purchase.

Seeing as the OP would still be travelling between the same points on the same day it is within the same rough area as time of travel amendments.

 

[exile]

In practice, showing both Railcards, both tickets, and explaining the situation (plus any relevant documentation/letter from a Doctor might help) then you are very likely to be 'shown discretion' by the Guard on the day.

It's rather a strange situation - anyone who has a Two Together and travels on their own is paying 1/3 more than they would for a fare without a railcard..... so can hardly be said to be fare-dodging....

If one's partner is abducted by aliens before you return from your trip you might be a bit miffed to be asked to pay for another ticket

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect it wasn't thought of. Personally I think one person should be able to travel provided they have the Railcard and both sets of tickets. There would be no real disadvantage to the railway of this as they would, as people have said, have paid more, not less.

 

[Clip]

I suspect it wasn't thought of. Personally I think one person should be able to travel provided they have the Railcard and both sets of tickets. There would be no real disadvantage to the railway of this as they would, as people have said, have paid more, not less.

But people on here tell everyone that price does not determine validity so whether they pay more or not is irrelevant and the rules of railcards are pretty clear and straight forward

3.Both named cardholders must be travelling together to enable discounted tickets to be used.

Its a tricky one I agree but we don't want them back here in the D&P section.

 

[najaB]

But people on here tell everyone that price does not determine validity so whether they pay more or not is irrelevant and the rules of railcards are pretty clear and straight forward/

I think the 'should' in Neil Williams' post was that the T&C's should be changed to allow travel, rather than that the OP should be allowed to travel under the current T&C's which, as you point out, clearly do not allow travel in these circumstances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the 'should' in Neil Williams' post was that the T&C's should be changed to allow travel, rather than that the OP should be allowed to travel under the current T&C's which, as you point out, clearly do not allow travel in these circumstances.

Yes, that was what I meant.

 

[SirAlf]

Thank you for your help everybody. The consensus seems to be that morally I should be able to do what I want but legally I can’t and that I might be dependent on the goodwill of the guard on the train

I will contact the EMT Customer Service Team (take a few chill-pills first) and see which question they answer; it probably won’t be the one I ask...

I will post back here when I have a definitive answer

 

[jon0844]

I hope that you can just get the ticket endorsed by someone who understands the situation and the lack of any loss to the railway.

Common sense can deal with this, without any issue of legality because an endorsement on the back sorts the problem there and then. It doesn't set a precedent, or encourage others to try (given the lack of any monetary gain).

 

[Clip]

I think the 'should' in Neil Williams' post was that the T&C's should be changed to allow travel, rather than that the OP should be allowed to travel under the current T&C's which, as you point out, clearly do not allow travel in these circumstances.

Quite but we cant just keep changing T&Cs just to suit a situation that hasnt really arisen as yet and again this could be open to abuse by those who would like to try it on.

I cant even think of the best way forward for the OP apart from them speaking to EMT and see what they say.

 

[najaB]

Quite but we cant just keep changing T&Cs just to suit a situation that hasnt really arisen as yet and again this could be open to abuse by those who would like to try it on.

This particular one wouldn't be open for abuse as the solo passenger would have paid 33% more for their pair of tickets than they would have for a single ticket - 2 x £66 vs 1 x £100.

 

[Clip]

Yes I do fully understand that,I really do but that misses my point somewhat.

 

[najaB]

Yes I do fully understand that,I really do but that misses my point somewhat.

I'm probably being thick, so apologies, but I can't see how changing the T&C's of the Two Together railcard to allow one person to travel as long as they are in possession of both tickets could open the door to abuse? It's already limited to use only after the morning peak so I can't see commuters taking advantage?

 

[Clip]

I'm probably being thick, so apologies, but I can't see how changing the T&C's of the Two Together railcard to allow one person to travel as long as they are in possession of both tickets could open the door to abuse? It's already limited to use only after the morning peak so I can't see commuters taking advantage?

Because like every other railcard it can be open to abuse if you start widening the conditions, should you think about it.

Instead of bringing in what ifs or other things that should happen with regards to the T&Cs of railcards people should try sticking to what are the conditions and giving the OP the correct advice so that they can make an informed decision- especially as the OP has not bought their ticket(s) yet. Creating grey areas or anything else does not help anyone one little bit except to get peoples post count up.

 

[najaB]

Because like every other railcard it can be open to abuse if you start widening the conditions, should you think about it.

I fully agree that unlimited widening of the conditions of every railcard to cope with every possible situation could lead to unintended loopholes, but I'd appreciate if you could point out how this specific change could lead to abuse. It is a simple, common sense change that can only be revenue neutral at worst.

Instead of bringing in what ifs or other things that should happen with regards to the T&Cs of railcards people should try sticking to what are the conditions...

As much as people try to stick to conditions, plans change and people get sick.

...giving the OP the correct advice so that they can make an informed decision...

The OP has already been given the correct advice - speak with EMT. The thread had moved on to point out a simple change to the Two Together T&C's that could be made to help people such as the OP in the future. Or are you of the opinion that threads must always stick religiously to answering the question posed in the opening post?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because like every other railcard it can be open to abuse if you start widening the conditions, should you think about it.

Except, as has been pointed out, this particular thing cannot be open to abuse because there is no situation whatsoever under which any variation of it would result in a reduced fare being paid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

as the OP has not bought their ticket(s) yet

As the OP has not purchased their tickets yet my recommendation as upthread is that they do not use the Railcard, or they wait and use walk-ups if the Advances are not all that cheap.

This doesn't prevent me thinking the railway has imposed a pointless restriction on this particular Railcard, most likely by way of unintentional omission.

 

[shadzz]

It happened few times that the chap at till sold me a London Travelcard with 2 together railcard as a 16-25 railcard discount. I was not inspected, but I would not really expect much trouble.

 

[SirAlf]

OP here with an update. I had an amicable email dialogue with EMT but in the end they refused to help, citing the conditions of the Two Together Railcard. Even though we would only have been travelling on their trains, not those of any other company

I have now emailed National Railcards suggesting that rules be waived for the Two Together Railcard in circumstances where one of the two people is ill

Again, I will post their reply when this dialogue is concluded

 

[najaB]

Again, I will post their reply when this dialogue is concluded

Please do. I agree that there's no loss to the TOC if you travel while holding both tickets.

 

[yorkie]

If the rail industry refuses to budge, you can try: http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint

 

[Bellbell]

As a guard I'd be completely fine with it. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I think most of my colleagues would be the same although I can think of one or two who are not good with the concept of discretion...

I'm not surprised you didn't get the answer you wanted from EMT. To be fair to them, railcards are not a TOC product and thus they can't be expected to sanction a variation to the T&Cs, particularly in writing!