Tickets 'with Connections'

[Soton Jamie]

Hi all,

I've had a search and couldn't come up with anything, so I thought I'd ask.

When you buy a ticket that has a TOC with Connections on it, are the connections printed on the tickets only a suggestion, as they don't appear to have reservations on them, or are they ridgidly enforcable?

Some of the ticket search engines come up with some whacky routes and trains, quite often based on the premise that it takes 3 days to cross London!!

I can get to Waterloo from any other London terminus in under 25 mins and vice versa and don't want to have to hang around longer than needed and the same if I can get a later outward train.

Many thanks and apologies if I'm going over old ground.

 

[northwichcat]

Depends on the exact journey. If, for example, it's a Virgin Advance ticket you buy and it has a First Capital Connect connection between place A and London Euston on it as well then your ticket should be accepted on any National Rail service between place A and London Euston, but it will only be valid on the specific Virgin service printed on the ticket. However, if you choose to catch a later connection than shown on your ticket (e.g. one that arrives at Euston 10 minutes before the Virgin service departs) and you miss the Virgin service then your ticket can be refused by Virgin on a later service, but would have been accepted by Virgin on a later service if the connection printed on your ticket is delayed.

 

[Soton Jamie]

Thanks.

Fully appreciate that I have to get the train I'm booked on with the main TOC (in this case East Coast's 1110 from Kings Cross). The connection given on the EC website leaves Southampton Central at 0835, changing at Eastleigh, Woking, Clapham Junction going into Victoria. Even though it's 5 minutes earlier, it would be much more convenient to catch the 0830 direct to Waterloo.

What I'm essentially asking is would I be slung off the 0830 at Winchester or even worse, penalty fare-d, if I got that train and not the 0835 and its frankly ridiculous connections!?

 

[northwichcat]

You're saying what East Coast's website says. Have you actually purchased the ticket yet? Most online and telephone ones now-a-days aren't those massive airline style tickets with a list of all the trains you will use printed on it. Instead you normally get one standard sized ticket saying from XXX to XXX valid only with reservations and an additional standard sized ticket for each seat reservation you have (your reservations.)

 

[jopsuk]

I doubt it. I guess the routing engine was trying to give you a "no changes" underground route across the city? Bit daft, when Oxford Circus gives you a nice flat connection anyway.

On a related though- before Christmas I traveled Cambridge- Stirling on an EC (NXEC when I booked) 1st Advance. First leg was FCC to Ely, the next I was supposed to travel with NXEA, in a booked seat, to Peterborough. At Ely, trains were running late, and the preceding EMT service via Peterborough was in the station. I had a quick word with the guard to check I was OK, and caught that instead- though as it was, trains from Peterborough were running late anyway, so the NXEA service would still have connected..

Ticket was marked route "NXECP'boro&cnctns" or some such. It did say "Coupon 1 of 3" on it, and was accomponied by reservation tickets for the NXEA and EC trains. Did that make the NXEA Ely-Peterborough train officially a "mandatory" train on this ticket? I've never encountered this before on this route. NXEC/EC don't put suggested connections on their tickets on web bookings.

 

[Soton Jamie]

Yup, that's what the EC website says. I haven't booked it yet as I wanted to see where the land lay in relation to connections.

What's even more frustrating is that the NRE website has the facility to reduce cross London times and quotes 1 fare. When you then go to book it through East Coast, etc, they have no such facility, so the arrival times are much later.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Why don't you put 'via Waterloo' into the Search Engine? It picks the 08:30 from Southampton to Waterloo and the 11:10 from KX. Cost (to Leeds) £32.50 single.

Date chosen was 27th Jan

 

[clagmonster]

Using March 19th as a random date, I am given by the East Coast website, changes at Eastleigh, Basingstoke, Clahpham Jn and Vauxhall to connect into the 11:10 off the Cross. However, if you specify, under more options, travel via London Waterloo, you are then given the 08:30 direct from Southampton, which does have reservations so you would then be tied to that train.

 

[northwichcat]

Ticket was marked route "NXECP'boro&cnctns" or some such. It did say "Coupon 1 of 3" on it, and was accomponied by reservation tickets for the NXEA and EC trains. Did that make the NXEA Ely-Peterborough train officially a "mandatory" train on this ticket? I've never encountered this before on this route. NXEC/EC don't put suggested connections on their tickets on web bookings.

Possibly as you sometimes finish up automatically being given a seat reservation for another part of your journey when you buy an advance ticket and once you have a seat reservation you are supposed to use it.

When I bought an advance ticket for a XC set route that include a TPE connection I got a seat reservation for the TPE service automatically. In contrast when I did a Virgin+ATW+Northern journey I got two coupons - one ticket and one Virgin reservation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

would then be tied to that train.

Literally? Is that how SWT deal with overcrowding? :roll: (sorry) Do East Coast have the NXEC option of opting out of seat reservations or they remove it when the charges were removed?

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Literally? Is that how SWT deal with overcrowding? :roll: (sorry) Do East Coast have the NXEC option of opting out of seat reservations or they remove it when the charges were removed?

To proceed without reservations on the EC website (unless it's an Advance) just don't select any services from the list.

Hi all,

I've had a search and couldn't come up with anything, so I thought I'd ask.

When you buy a ticket that has a TOC with Connections on it, are the connections printed on the tickets only a suggestion, as they don't appear to have reservations on them, or are they ridgidly enforcable?

Some of the ticket search engines come up with some whacky routes and trains, quite often based on the premise that it takes 3 days to cross London!!

I can get to Waterloo from any other London terminus in under 25 mins and vice versa and don't want to have to hang around longer than needed and the same if I can get a later outward train.

Many thanks and apologies if I'm going over old ground.

Well this is a funny question because I've just been sold a 'TPE + Connections' ticket, student discount and all, from the TPE website where the TPE portion is a 25-minute Rail Replacement Bus journey from Dewsbury to Leeds and the more-than-significant remainder of the journey to Newcastle is reserved on a CrossCountry service

I think the rule is, if you have a reservation you must use it, if you do not have a reservation you must use the next available train for your connection as you can't break your journey on Advance tickets anyway.

 

[yorkie]

TPE and Connections? this is the first i've heard of it.... are you sure?
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T
I think the rule is, if you have a reservation you must use it, if you do not have a reservation you must use the next available train for your connection as you can't break your journey on Advance tickets anyway.

What do you think the definition of break of journey is?

how would you define next train, specifically for london to clapham for example?

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Ohh don't start with break of journey again!

If you have a reservation on an advance ticket, you must travel on that train. If your train is unreservable, you may travel on any (within normal rules) in order to make your connection.

To answer your original question, the 0830 would be fine if you don't recieve a reservation for the Southampton-London bit. If you're unsure whether you would, simply put "via Waterloo" into the EC site which will give you the 0830 anyway.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

TPE and Connections? this is the first i've heard of it.... are you sure?

Straight from the confirmation email:

Journey 2: DEWSBURY to NEWCASTLE
Ticket Type: ADVANCE SINGLE
Route: This ticket is only valid on First TransPennine Express and connecting services
Outward Journey: 24/01/2010
departs LEEDS at XX:XX travel by Train service provider CROSSCOUNTRY to station NEWCASTLE arrives XX:XX
Coach: X Seat: XX

Normally TPE & Connections is used for connecting into Northern services.

 

[LondonLarry]

SWT don't offer seat reservations on any service. If you buy an Advance ticket, you'll be allocated a space on the train (but not a specific seat).

The 0830 service from Southampton Central (0655 from Weymouth) is bookable for Advance tickets. If you've not been booked onto the 0830 train, your Advance ticket isn't valid on it.

I'm not sure what train you're booked on from Kings X, but you could take the 0848 from Southampton arriving Waterloo at 1034...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The 0830 service from Southampton Central (0655 from Weymouth) is bookable for Advance tickets. If you've not been booked onto the 0830 train, your Advance ticket isn't valid on it....

I believe a phrase involving an animal's excrement is appropriate here. If the ticket is routed '+ connections' the ticket is valid on any connecting service for the appropriate TOCs service, that can be produced on a valid travel itinerary.

In this case the TOC is East Coast (not SWT), so the important reservation/service is the 1110 service from Kings Cross. The train from Southampton is the connecting service, therefore, even without a reservation, the ticket is valid on the 0830 because the ticket is routed 'EC + Connections'.

If you were reserved on the 0830, you could still take another service that meant you had to change trains on route to London, provided it is on a permitted route (as described in the NRG) and you can catch the 1110 from Kings Cross, because the ticket is routed 'EC + Connections'.

 

[Soton Jamie]

If you were reserved on the 0830, you could still take another service that meant you had to change trains on route to London, provided it is on a permitted route (as described in the NRG) and you can catch the 1110 from Kings Cross, because the ticket is routed 'EC + Connections'.

Cheers, that's the answer I was looking for.

I'm booked on the 1110 from KX on 19/2/10 and thanks to the advice above got the connection with the 0830 from Southamptpon C. This is fine, as I reckon it's better to build in a bit of cock-up time.

Coming back is ridiculous on 20/02. I'm booked on the 1905 from Leeds. When I went to book it with no adjustments, it came back as £21 with a YP, but the route back from London is Paddington - Reading - Basingstoke - Southampton. When I tried the 'via' option, routing via Waterloo, the price quoted was £70!!

Now, providing the EC train is on time, I could easily make the 2205 from Waterloo and would rather do this. I'm therefore hoping the quote above is correct!!

 

[LondonLarry]

I believe a phrase involving an animal's excrement is appropriate here. If the ticket is routed '+ connections' the ticket is valid on any connecting service for the appropriate TOCs service, that can be produced on a valid travel itinerary.

The point I was making was for a '+ connections' ticket from Southampton, he would need a reservation in order to travel on the 0830 departure. As he hadn't booked the ticket at the time of posting it wasn't a big issue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Now, providing the EC train is on time, I could easily make the 2205 from Waterloo and would rather do this. I'm therefore hoping the quote above is correct!!

This train is also a reservable service so you will need a reservation to travel on it.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE and Connections? this is the first i've heard of it.... are you sure?

It will be TPE + connections as it's obviously a Student Advance ticket which is a type of ticket TPE do that offers you a 50% 16-25 railcard discount on an advance instead of the usual 34% discount. I'm guessing it would usually be only issued for the direct train from Dewsbury-Newcastle but because of engineering works it's being allowed via an alternative route.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The point I was making was for a '+ connections' ticket from Southampton, he would need a reservation in order to travel on the 0830 departure....

In this case, with an 'EC + Connections' ticket, the train from Southampton is the connecting service, so he does not need a reservation for it.

If the ticket was routed 'SWT + Connections' the train from Southampton would have to be reserved, but then the EC train from Kings Cross would become the connection, thus not requiring a reservation.

If routed 'SWT + EC only', the train from Southampton and the train from Kings Cross would have to be reserved because of the lack of '+ Connections' in the routeing.

 

[yorkie]

The point I was making was for a '+ connections' ticket from Southampton, he would need a reservation in order to travel on the 0830 departure. As he hadn't booked the ticket at the time of posting it wasn't a big issue.

I don't agree.

This train is also a reservable service so you will need a reservation to travel on it.

Do you have a source for that statement please?

 

[mathmo]

I'm surprised no-one has said this before: if you have a reservation for part of your journey on an Advance ticket then you must use the specified service for that part of your journey. If not, you can generally get any train you want for that part of the journey (though note the good advice given earlier in this thread about trains being late).

It is possible to have reservations with two different TOCs on the same Advance ticket: I once bought a London Euston - Frodsham route "VWC + Connectns" ticket and had reservations Euston - Chester (Virgin) and Chester - Frodsham (ATW). So if your ticket arrives with reservations for both parts of the journey (EC + SWT) then you will have to use that SWT train. Otherwise you should be able to get any train.

In the ridiculous Paddington-Reading-... example quoted above you may well have a reservation for Paddington-Reading which would mean you are required to take that train (hence that route).

 

[Max]

I'm surprised no-one has said this before: if you have a reservation for part of your journey on an Advance ticket then you must use the specified service for that part of your journey. If not, you can generally get any train you want for that part of the journey (though note the good advice given earlier in this thread about trains being late).

It is possible to have reservations with two different TOCs on the same Advance ticket: I once bought a London Euston - Frodsham route "VWC + Connectns" ticket and had reservations Euston - Chester (Virgin) and Chester - Frodsham (ATW). So if your ticket arrives with reservations for both parts of the journey (EC + SWT) then you will have to use that SWT train. Otherwise you should be able to get any train.

In the ridiculous Paddington-Reading-... example quoted above you may well have a reservation for Paddington-Reading which would mean you are required to take that train (hence that route).

This simply isn't true! I quote from the National Rail website:

If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

So presumably if a valid travel itinerary can be created for the journey via Waterloo, the ticket is valid - surely? Preumably the system will just default to the fastest route, not considering other routes which (although slower) might be more convenient. I highly doubt this would be disallowed on the train.

 

[yorkie]

So if your ticket arrives with reservations for both parts of the journey (EC + SWT) then you will have to use that SWT train. Otherwise you should be able to get any train.

In the ridiculous Paddington-Reading-... example quoted above you may well have a reservation for Paddington-Reading which would mean you are required to take that train (hence that route).

Some people state this as fact, but there's very little evidence to back it up.

This crops up every so often, for example the Slough double-back case, and also related to this is the Hayle to Paddington case (with no reservation being issued from Hayle to Plymouth and the customer taking a train that had reservations and the guard "reprimanding" a young lady for taking a different train), and it's cropped up before.

Interestingly someone posting on this topic who also posted on the other topics has changed their mind on the subject, and for the better (IMO) and I am pleased about that. But it does show how complicated these rules are, that interpretations can change with experience.

Like combining AP tickets to form one journey, it'll keep cropping up, and no 100% conclusive answer will be reached. But in the absense of absolute clarity then I believe consumer laws should protect the customer and rule in our favour.

The words "or other valid travel itinerary" could easily be worded "the itinerary you were provided with when you bought the ticket" but they aren't. It's quite clear that if I turn up at Waterloo with a ticket to Clapham Junction that I can take any train. Likewise to Surbiton. It is therefore illogical that on the same ticket, with exactly the same terms can suddenly be restricted on the SWT portion of the journey.

Simplification didn't make it simpler. I'm sure these tickets used to state something like "Valid on the (NX)EC service and seat stated on the ticket, plus any suitable connecting train" or words to that effect. Of course simplification meant "common" conditions had to apply, which introduced ambiguity.

It's rather like the Virgin Trains rule that allows Off Peak tickets with a Railcard to be used on peak trains, or the Network Area rule that allows Off Peak tickets to be used on any train in the Network area when travelling between stations inside and outside the area on an Off Peak ticket. In both cases people could try to quote a rule that disallows it, but it's clear that if a rule allows it, the allowing rule must prevail. No other interpretation is logical and no other interpretation is likely to be upheld by the courts IMO (IANAL).