TIR for using the ticket my partner purchased me!

[Hadders]

Far better to accept a Penalty Fare because if you appeal it you can’t then be prosecuted.

A TIR could result in a prosecution with all the faff, stress and costs that could entail.

Failing to provide your name and address to an officer of the railway is an offence in itself so I would not recommend refusing to give details if asked.

 

[RPI]

Having used the TTK T-Vals before, if something is flagged on it then the ticket should then be checked with a mobile device to have a closer look.

The T-Val is basically set up by the operator at the time to flag certain tickets, you can set say 16-25 Railcard discounts to a red light and a certain audible alarm, if this is activated the ticket should then be further inspected.
I have just skimmed this thread so apologies if this has already been answered, but did the staff member then scan the ticket themselves?

 

[AdamWW]

I have just skimmed this thread so apologies if this has already been answered, but did the staff member then scan the ticket themselves?

The OP in this fascinating thread said:

However, upon arrival in Warrington the revenues chap(?) asked to see a ticket (it failed on the barrier FYI) and I showed him the email and screenshot etc. He attempted to scan the QR and then let me know the bad news. He asked "Did you buy this ticket?" I said, "No, my..." And then he cut me off and said well that's not allowed on Northernrail and then proceeded to take my details.In the typical fashion?

 

[haltendehand]

Far better to accept a Penalty Fare because if you appeal it you can’t then be prosecuted.

A TIR could result in a prosecution with all the faff, stress and costs that could entail.

Failing to provide your name and address to an officer of the railway is an offence in itself so I would not recommend refusing to give details if asked.

I don't think the latter point is accurate. The law's phrasing is:

If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [F2or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company F3... may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

This implies that it is not an offence to refuse to give a name and address if you do hold a valid ticket.

 

[Huntergreed]

I don't think the latter point is accurate. The law's phrasing is:

If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [F2or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company F3... may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

This implies that it is not an offence to refuse to give a name and address if you do hold a valid ticket.

Byelaw (23) states:

Enforcement and interpretation​

23. Name and address​

1. any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.
2. the authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these byelaws in general terms at the time of the request.

(https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws)

So it comes down to subjectivity really (with regards to the actions which may lead an authorised person to suspect a byelaw breach).

In this instance, as a TIR was submitted, it seems clear that the OP was suspected of breaching the byelaws (and this satisfies the conditions outlined in 23 (1) - as a result it would have become an offence to have refused to hand details over at this point).

The only contest to this would be if the authorised person did not state the nature of the byelaw breach whilst making the request for this data as specified in 23 (2). If this was not done, then there was no offence committed in refusing to provide details. Proving this was not done may be difficult without footage from the incident though.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Byelaw (23) states:



(https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws)

So it comes down to subjectivity really (with regards to the actions which may lead an authorised person to suspect a byelaw breach).

In this instance, as a TIR was submitted, it seems clear that the OP was suspected of breaching the byelaws (and this satisfies the conditions outlined in 23 (1) - as a result it would have become an offence to have refused to hand details over at this point).

The only contest to this would be if the authorised person did not state the nature of the byelaw breach whilst making the request for this data as specified in 23 (2). If this was not done, then there was no offence committed in refusing to provide details. Proving this was not done may be difficult without footage from the incident though.

But the byelaw actually says "was reasonably suspected" - it's arguable that the suspicion was unreasonable given that the person held a valid ticket at all times, and it should have been clear to a reasonable person that it was a valid ticket.

 

[Huntergreed]

But the byelaw actually says "was reasonably suspected" - it's arguable that the suspicion was unreasonable given that the person held a valid ticket at all times, and it should have been clear to a reasonable person that it was a valid ticket.

That’s a fair assessment.

Clearly the discrepancy here is between Northern’s terms and conditions and the NRCoT (and the NRCoT clearly hold greater weight and have been interpreted incorrectly by Northern). I concur that a valid ticket was held so I don’t see any “reasonable” way in which suspicion should have arisen.

Arguably the only “offence” that may have been committed here is a breach of Byelaw 21 (1) where the OP refused to give details, however it is unclear whether the conditions for which details must be given were met. If worst came to worst, it would be down to the court to decide whether these conditions were met and subsequently whether any byelaw breach occurred.

 

[Hadders]

I don't think the latter point is accurate. The law's phrasing is:

If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [F2or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company F3... may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

This implies that it is not an offence to refuse to give a name and address if you do hold a valid ticket.

We’re in danger of going off topic here so any further discussion on this is best out in a new thread.

If Northern believed the ticket was invalid (which they clearly did) then I believe there is a requirement for details to be given.

For the sake of clarity, based on what we have been told the OP had a valid ticket.

 

[island]

If Northern believed the ticket was invalid (which they clearly did) then I believe there is a requirement for details to be given.

…but only if the belief was reasonable, which to me does not seem to be the case on the given facts.

 

[Watershed]

…but only if the belief was reasonable, which to me does not seem to be the case on the given facts.

Although I would agree, it's a difficult one because if you refuse to give your details, and the BTP are present, things are only going to end one way - whether you're legally in the right or not.

 

[Hadders]

Although I would agree, it's a difficult one because if you refuse to give your details, and the BTP are present, things are only going to end one way - whether you're legally in the right or not.

I agree. I do think we need to be careful not to get too bogged down in minutiae of detail that isn’t really relevant to the OP’s case.

 

[Wolfie]

Although I would agree, it's a difficult one because if you refuse to give your details, and the BTP are present, things are only going to end one way - whether you're legally in the right or not.

Which in turn could easily result in action against BTP for unlawful arrest. A few of those might make them think twice....

I agree. I do think we need to be careful not to get too bogged down in minutiae of detail that isn’t really relevant to the OP’s case.

Agreed. Speculating on generalities vs the specific case isn't ideal and l'm as guilty as anyone.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Yes generally speaking you do not contradict a colleague in front of a customer because this can give rise to a complaint from the colleague that they have been undermined or belittled.

Of course there are ways of resolving the issue immediately without appearing to "undermine the colleague" but this requires a skill that many do not seem to possess and sadly many employees would rather allow a customer to be given wrong information rather than sour a relationship with a colleague.

Any chance you could elaborate on this here if you have the time? Thanks.

 

[yorkie]

....Although it may sound like bad advice to trust people on a web forum over staff,....

Depends who they are; if someone has a status such as "Fares Advisor" then that means the forum staff team know that person has good specialist knowledge (which is well beyond that required by someone authorised to check and issue tickets / penalty fares). If someone is a "Verified Rep" then that means they have been verified as representing the relevant organisation, and so on.

If someone has no such designation, they may well be knowledgeable but unless you are familiar with their posts or have met the person, an average member wouldn't know that. If anyone is unsure if a member is posting accurately they can contact a moderator.

This forum includes many knowledgable people both in and outside the industry and while of course not everybody will be correct, my experience is that you can trust the consensus opinion here far more than the results of questioning random rail staff

Absolutely; this forum is well used by people who work within/for the industry.

Are you within your rights to refuse a penalty fare or transport irregularity if you know you are definitely in the right?

Yes if you are content to defend the matter in court

From my experience I would place far more faith in what I'm told on this forum than any number of rail employees, sad as that is.

Many of the experts here do have relevant jobs in the area of railway ticketing, this includes a variety of relevant positions (even including Managing Directors).

If you want to DM me a photo of the Aztec code I can try and get the scan history tomorrow as from what you've said you've done nothing wrong.

@WedjCr did you do this? If not, I'd encourage you to do so. (Or you can send it to me if you prefer; I don't have a scanner myself but if you're happy for me to pass it onto someone, I can get this checked for you)

 

[skyhigh]

@WedjCr did you do this? If not, I'd encourage you to do so. (Or you can send it to me if you prefer; I don't have a scanner myself but if you're happy for me to pass it onto someone, I can get this checked for you)

Sorry, was involved in an incident this week so didn't get a chance to update. I've seen the ticket and can't see any reason why it would be invalid. There is very little scan data recorded and it's not marked as refunded. It's definitely an e-ticket too.

 

[WedjCr]

Hello everyone! Thank you all, for well considered and friendly feedback and advice.

I have finally got to the bottom of it. As all of you stated (now correctly), I wasn’t given a TIR because someone purchased it for me, I was given it because the ticket sold on the app (£8) was invalid for travel. As such I had to pay £6. The tickets sold was for off peak and not for the time I travelled.

I want to point out something here. In case anyone gets caught in this trap.

A great example would be the options shown on the app. It will let you choose your departure date, suggest a price and actually let you book it, but in my case it sent us an off peak. The following tickets would be invalid (said the revenue protection customer services woman)

So long story short, don’t trust the app!

I have it in writing that the ticket sold was indeed not accepted for travel at that time. Which sounds like fraud but in all honesty, there’s probably some terms and conditions somewhere

 

[NorthOxonian]

Hello everyone! Thank you all, for well considered and friendly feedback and advice.

I have finally got to the bottom of it. As all of you stated (now correctly), I wasn’t given a TIR because someone purchased it for me, I was given it because the ticket sold on the app (£8) was invalid for travel. As such I had to pay £6. The tickets sold was for off peak and not for the time I travelled.

I want to point out something here. In case anyone gets caught in this trap.

A great example would be the options shown on the app. It will let you choose your departure date, suggest a price and actually let you book it, but in my case it sent us an off peak. The following tickets would be invalid (said the revenue protection customer services woman)

So long story short, don’t trust the app!

I have it in writing that the ticket sold was indeed not accepted for travel at that time. Which sounds like fraud but in all honesty, there’s probably some terms and conditions somewhere

The restriction on a Liverpool to Warrington off peak day return (which costs £8) is code B1 - you can check this code on the national rail website at nre.co.uk/B1.

For the outward journey, the condition which applies is:

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

There is no evening peak restriction on this ticket; I can see no reason why it wouldn't be valid at Warrington at that time.

 

[skyhigh]

A great example would be the options shown on the app. It will let you choose your departure date, suggest a price and actually let you book it, but in my case it sent us an off peak. The following tickets would be invalid (said the revenue protection customer services woman)

So long story short, don’t trust the app!

I have it in writing that the ticket sold was indeed not accepted for travel at that time. Which sounds like fraud but in all honesty, there’s probably some terms and conditions somewhere

Did you travel on the 17.51 train? The ticket *was* valid on that train. There are no evening peak restrictions.

 

[WedjCr]

Well that’s what the said and at this point I’m glad I just had to pay £6. If anyone thinks it’s worth a complaint then I would deffo do it, but if the wisdom of the form is to just walk away I can accept that too

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Well that’s what the said and at this point I’m glad I just had to pay £6. If anyone thinks it’s worth a complaint then I would deffo do it, but if the wisdom of the form is to just walk away I can accept that too

I'd say it depends how much time getting that £6 back is worth to you. They probably deserve a complaint for being wrong and causing you to spend time dealing with a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd say it depends how much time getting that £6 back is worth to you. They probably deserve a complaint for being wrong and causing you to spend time dealing with a problem that doesn't exist.

It seems increasingly common for Northern staff to get this Offpeak stuff completely wrong, haven't there been other recent threads about exactly the same issue? Training seems completely hopeless. If the OP raises a complaint it can only help others, but they’re under no obligation to do so.

 

[DaveB10780]

We often have that sort of problem travelling back from Manchester to Furness Vale which is off peak all day after 0859. If you go from New Mills Newtown, one stop up the line, then evening Off Peak restrictions apply same train. Often a discussion is required at Piccadilly or Oxford Rd. before you are allowed to travel because in their mind Off Peak is by train not journey. I do sympathise a little with them but their job is to know the rules. Personally they I feel they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it but fully understand if it is not worth the hassle. Maybe ask for a complimentary ticket as well.

 

[AdamWW]

So long story short, don’t trust the app!

Alternatively. perhaps trust the app, trust the restriction codes on the National Rail web site, but don't trust Northern staff?

 

[jfollows]

It seems increasingly common for Northern staff to get this Offpeak stuff completely wrong, haven't there been other recent threads about exactly the same issue? Training seems completely hopeless. If the OP raises a complaint it can only help others, but they’re under no obligation to do so.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-fare-by-northern-for-off-peak-ticket.249216/ for example, in which the "transgressor" was given a Penalty Fare of £103.70 by Carlisle Support Services. Also at Warrington Central.

It's incompetent and unacceptable but I don't think it will stop happening. Especially given that in the earlier case a complaint was made and the Penalty Fare was refunded, but apparently Northern didn't think it needed to train its staff at Warrington better.

In the other thread, it's telling that 30907 said

You should also, once this is resolved, complain to Northern and request that staff are properly trained - the issue would equally affect travel from Liverpool, which is I imagine a significant flow.

...and this is exactly what has happened here.

Well that’s what the said and at this point I’m glad I just had to pay £6. If anyone thinks it’s worth a complaint then I would deffo do it, but if the wisdom of the form is to just walk away I can accept that too

I think you should complain because it's happened before and will more likely happen again if you don't. Was it CSS who issued your TIR (you obscured this detail)? The staff at Warrington Central appear incapable of understanding and implementing their rules properly.

 

[fandroid]

Perfectly valid ticket that your partner bought. We have definitely seen this nonsense before from station staff at Warrington, and it should be stopped asap. A simple complaint should be sent to Northern Rail and a request for a refund and compensation for the hassle caused. It might result in nothing, but the more they get told, the more likely they are to actually do something about their staff

 

[AdamWW]

We often have that sort of problem travelling back from Manchester to Furness Vale which is off peak all day after 0859. If you go from New Mills Newtown, one stop up the line, then evening Off Peak restrictions apply same train. Often a discussion is required at Piccadilly or Oxford Rd. before you are allowed to travel because in their mind Off Peak is by train not journey. I do sympathise a little with them but their job is to know the rules. Personally they I feel they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it but fully understand if it is not worth the hassle. Maybe ask for a complimentary ticket as well.

I'd argue that you could expect them to know the validity rules for tickets they commonly encounter, but failing that there is no excuse for not knowing the principle that validity depends on the ticket not the train.

 

[fandroid]

I checked BR fares. There is one ticket only for that journey which has an evening restriction and that is the Duo ticket (for two travelling together)

Did the OP get any explanation as to why it was thought £6 was an appropriate excess? A total fare of £14 doesn't fit any of the actual fares listed.

Also, there is no actual £6 fare for any single ticket, which I suppose they might have insisted on the OP buying

 

[AndrewE]

Perfectly valid ticket that your partner bought. We have definitely seen this nonsense before from station staff at Warrington, and it should be stopped asap. A simple complaint should be sent to Northern Rail and a request for a refund and compensation for the hassle caused. It might result in nothing, but the more they get told, the more likely they are to actually do something about their staff

and copy in your MP, and local councillors, otherwise it might just get ignored! Maybe also some green groups trying to support public transport uptake. It's disgraceful that people employed by the railway are punishing passengers who haven't broken any rules at all...

 

[fandroid]

Unfairly given penalty fare by Northern for off-peak ticket?

Today I was travelling from Warrington West to Warrington Central station on the 16:28 train. I purchased an off-peak day return ticket on the Trainline app for £2.70 a few minutes before the train arrived. When I got to Warrington Central I was told that the ticket was invalid as it was now...

www.railforums.co.uk

I think this is other recent case of an Offpeak ticket being rejected at Warrington Central

And in that thread this forum member correctly forecast exactly the problem our OP has been made to suffer for

You should also, once this is resolved, complain to Northern and request that staff are properly trained - the issue would equally affect travel from Liverpool, which is I imagine a significant flow.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Has the OP's ticket been rejected by virtue of having been scanned by the sort of device depicted in post #11 (upthread) and Northern's contractors have then doubled down on the erroneous "Computer says No" indication?