To what are passengers entitled if a train is too full to board?

[Hellfire]

My wife, together with a number of other passengers, has been left stranded at Crewe this afternoon because the 1608 to Carmarthen was so full, no one could board. It was the usual two carriages and rammed. My wife is travelling to Cardiff.

I'm sure this must happen quite a lot, I had a similar experience with TPE at Nottingham the other week. What are the responsibilities of the TOC in these circumstances?

 

[gazthomas]

I'm sorry to hear that. It depends on the TOC, ultimately in this instance your wife has been delayed so should be able to submit a "delay repay" claim with Transport for Wales: https://tfwrail.wales/delay-compensation

 

[Robertj21a]

My wife, together with a number of other passengers, has been left stranded at Crewe this afternoon because the 1608 to Carmarthen was so full, no one could board. It was the usual two carriages and rammed. My wife is travelling to Cardiff.

I'm sure this must happen quite a lot, I had a similar experience with TPE at Nottingham the other week. What are the responsibilities of the TOC in these circumstances?

Was the ticket restricted to just that train ?

 

[Hellfire]

Was the ticket restricted to just that train ?

No it wasn't. But there is no guarantee that the next train, the 1708, won't be the same.

 

[Hellfire]

I'm sorry to hear that. It depends on the TOC, ultimately in this instance your wife has been delayed so should be able to submit a "delay repay" claim with Transport for Wales: https://tfwrail.wales/delay-compensation

Thank you. I appreciate this but that won't get people wherever they need to be, Cardiff in my wife's case. Does the TOC have any responsibility for getting passengers to the destination they have booked if trains in these circumstances? I have spoken to the TOC and all they will did is apologise and say they have new trains on order. I doubt they will arrive this evening

 

[_toommm_]

My wife, together with a number of other passengers, has been left stranded at Crewe this afternoon because the 1608 to Carmarthen was so full, no one could board. It was the usual two carriages and rammed. My wife is travelling to Cardiff.

I'm sure this must happen quite a lot, I had a similar experience with TPE at Nottingham the other week. What are the responsibilities of the TOC in these circumstances?

I'm surprised to hear you had such an experience with TPE at Nottingham, seen as their services to Nottingham haven't even started yet...

 

[gazthomas]

Thank you. I appreciate this but that won't get people wherever they need to be, Cardiff in my wife's case. Does the TOC have any responsibility for getting passengers to the destination they have booked if trains in these circumstances? I have spoken to the TOC and all they will did is apologise and say they have new trains on order. I doubt they will arrive this evening

No obligation to my knowledge, just standard delay terms

 

[Mag_seven]

The Manchester Cardiff service is in big need of proper length (5 coaches minimum) "InterCity" type stock. A three car 175 is bad enough but a two car is really taking the proverbial on such a busy route.

 

[Hellfire]

I'm surprised to hear you had such an experience with TPE at Nottingham, seen as their services to Nottingham haven't even started yet...

Yes, I'm very surprised too....to realise I'd typed Nottingham rather than Sheffield. Forgot my tablets again

 

[Hellfire]

The Manchester Cardiff service is in big need of proper length (5 coaches minimum) "InterCity" type stock. A three car 175 is bad enough but a two car is really taking the proverbial on such a busy route.

I agree. I've used the route a few times in the past, it's always busy and often rammed. The TOC claim they have a lot of carriages in maintenance because of problems caused by bad weather and leaves on the line. Will it get any better under the new franchise I wonder.

 

[Hellfire]

She managed to get on the 3 car 1708 although standing room only. I can't see anything in the TOC Delay Repay conditions that cover the fact a passenger could not get on a service because of overcrowding. She had an anytime ticket so might find it difficult to prove she was due to travel on the 1608. We'll give it a try.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Manchester Cardiff service is in big need of proper length (5 coaches minimum) "InterCity" type stock. A three car 175 is bad enough but a two car is really taking the proverbial on such a busy route.

It's getting 5 car CAF Civities, isn't it?

 

[Mag_seven]

It's getting 5 car CAF Civities, isn't it?

Good if it is - can't come soon enough.

 

[Hellfire]

It's getting 5 car CAF Civities, isn't it?

According to this report CAF are providing only 3 car and 2 car units so not much of an improvement, if any.

"CAF will build 51 two-car and 26 three-car diesel trains while Stadler will make 35 regional trains - with three or four carriages - and 36 three-car trams."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45197544

 

[greyman42]

What would happen if it was the last service of the day with that particular TOC and your ticket was only valid with them?

 

[Darandio]

Good if it is - can't come soon enough.

2022 isn't really soon enough.

 

[Ianno87]

No it wasn't. But there is no guarantee that the next train, the 1708, won't be the same.

I know your wife is on the train now, bit I'd have considered getting the next train to Birmingham and changing there instead.

 

[sprinterguy]

According to this report CAF are providing only 3 car and 2 car units so not much of an improvement, if any.

"CAF will build 51 two-car and 26 three-car diesel trains while Stadler will make 35 regional trains - with three or four carriages - and 36 three-car trams."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45197544

Yes, but it's reputedly sufficient units so that the 3 and 2-car units will be combined to form 5-car trains on the regional services from Manchester.

 

[_toommm_]

She managed to get on the 3 car 1708 although standing room only. I can't see anything in the TOC Delay Repay conditions that cover the fact a passenger could not get on a service because of overcrowding. She had an anytime ticket so might find it difficult to prove she was due to travel on the 1608. We'll give it a try.

The guard should have reported full and standing to the TOC HQ - I would also suggest emailing in about delay repay rather than using the online form, as the automatic form may get declined as it isn't a traditional delay repay case in that respect.

 

[6Gman]

Too late now, but would station staff endorse ticket in some way (unable to board 1608 departure, delayed to 1708) to ensure delay repay can be obtained.

Problem is that late afternoon trains on a Friday are going to be busy(er) especially with rugby tomorrow in Cardiff.

TOCs understandably reluctant to pay for resources that will be lightly loaded on other days/ journeys.

In my experience the one (slight) redeeming feature on that line is that there's a decent turnover en route. So, if standing from Crewe there's a chance of a seat from Shrewsbury etc.

 

[Hellfire]

I know your wife is on the train now, bit I'd have considered getting the next train to Birmingham and changing there instead.

That was her fall back. Birmingham service at 1719, connect with XCountry.

 

[Hellfire]

The guard should have reported full and standing to the TOC HQ - I would also suggest emailing in about delay repay rather than using the online form, as the automatic form may get declined as it isn't a traditional delay repay case in that respect.

Thank you for that suggestion. It’s a sound one.

 

[Hellfire]

Too late now, but would station staff endorse ticket in some way (unable to board 1608 departure, delayed to 1708) to ensure delay repay can be obtained.

Problem is that late afternoon trains on a Friday are going to be busy(er) especially with rugby tomorrow in Cardiff.

TOCs understandably reluctant to pay for resources that will be lightly loaded on other days/ journeys.

In my experience the one (slight) redeeming feature on that line is that there's a decent turnover en route. So, if standing from Crewe there's a chance of a seat from Shrewsbury etc.

In my experience this route is rarely lightly loaded. In this case there was no opportunity to stand because no one could get on. Given that the dates of the Autumn Internationals are announced months in advance, there is no excuse for not preparing for them.

 

[_toommm_]

Thank you for that suggestion. It’s a sound one.

Even if the guard didn't, with the proliferation of complaints on social media, I doubt TfW would be unaware of the issues on that train, and I doubt it would be an isolated issue on that train only.

I'd genuinely be surprised if they said no - unless they claim the lack of rolling stock is due to some external source or some other BS excuse.

 

[Skie]

Had a similar situation the other week, where my Merseyrail train arrived short formed at peak, and so I ended up missing my Virgin train which the advance was for. TM of the next Virgin service was more than accommodating and sent me up to first class, so it worked out well in the end. Have applied for delay repay from Merseyrail (which my employer gets the benefit of) just to see what they say to weasel out of it.

 

[pt_mad]

I'm sure one of the ticketing experts can answer, but would the customer be entitled to a refund if they decided to go home because they couldn't board the particular train they planned, because it was full so it was impossible?

 

[_toommm_]

I'm sure one of the ticketing experts can answer, but would the customer be entitled to a refund if they decided to go home because they couldn't board the particular train they planned, because it was full so it was impossible?

Technically yes. However, I suspect getting the staff to concur with you that that is a valid reason, or even getting staff to find out if the train was heavily loaded or not is another question entirely...

 

[PHILIPE]

TFW will pay "Delay Repay" if a passenger is an hour or more late on arrival at destination. They will not pay for anything but you could try and, on occasions, they may pay something as a good will gesture.

 

[pt_mad]

TFW will pay "Delay Repay" if a passenger is an hour or more late on arrival at destination. They will not pay for anything but you could try and, on occasions, they may pay something as a good will gesture.

I suppose the key question is whether they still want to travel. If you decided that, because you couldn't board the train due to it being full, and you were there on time, but were now going to miss your appointment, it may be pointless travelling. Presumably you'd then want a refund.

 

[LewisT]

GTR offer Delay Repay if the train you wanted to catch is impossible to board due to overcrowding. I assume they'd check CCTV to verify any claims, and payouts are the same as if the train was cancelled.