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TOC/FOC Notice Period

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YingYing

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Hi folks, I've had a search around the forum but haven't found much info on this subject.
For drivers and/or other safety critical workers at TOCs and FOCs, what is your contracted notice period?
I've been sent a contract and if I wanted to leave (I don't) I have to give 4 months notice.
Is this typical of driver and groundstaff roles?

It's more out of interest than anything. Cheers.
 
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Efini92

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Depend on the Toc. The first one I was at was 6 months. The one I have just left was 4 weeks.
 

transportphoto

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I know at least one TOC which asks for twelve weeks for Conductors - so longer notice periods appear quite normal across the industry.
 

NorthernTech

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Hi folks, I've had a search around the forum but haven't found much info on this subject.
For drivers and/or other safety critical workers at TOCs and FOCs, what is your contracted notice period?
I've been sent a contract and if I wanted to leave (I don't) I have to give 4 months notice.
Is this typical of driver and groundstaff roles?

It's more out of interest than anything. Cheers.
You haven’t started yet and already thinking about moving on ;)
 

Watershed

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Long notice periods are quite common in the rail industry, particularly in roles that require a lot of training. For traincrew, 6 months isn't uncommon, and for other staff 3 months is pretty routine. In most cases, they would struggle to replace and fully train up a replacement even in that length of time, so it's not an inherently unreasonable notice period - and it has been known for companies to enforce them.

Of course, it does limit you if you want to make a move - but ultimately that is one of the downsides of working in a highly trained role.
 

Watershed

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You don't have to give any notice, what will your employers do, go to the expense of taking you to a tribunal?
If they suffer a loss as a result (e.g. having to pay colleagues time and a half to cover your shifts, or paying compensation for cancelled trains), it's quite plausible that they would take you to Court. A driver who quits without notice could cause quite substantial losses into the thousands or tens of thousands. In the most extreme cases they could also apply an injunction preventing you from working for your new employer during your notice period.

It's all very well saying you don't have to give notice, but if you do that, you are likely to burn bridges. Therefore even if the employer doesn't actively pursue your breach of contract, there is still a high chance that they (and all linked companies) will refuse to employ you again. They might also mention that you didn't work your notice period, in any reference you ask for in the future.

Unless there are exceptional circumstances at play, it's not a risk worth taking.
 

Efini92

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You don't have to give any notice, what will your employers do, go to the expense of taking you to a tribunal?
There was a driver from northern that came to Crosscountry without working his notice period. Northern rang up and asked for him back. Not sure what went on behind closed doors but he doesn’t work for XC any more.
 

OpsWeb

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If they suffer a loss as a result (e.g. having to pay colleagues time and a half to cover your shifts, or paying compensation for cancelled trains), it's quite plausible that they would take you to Court. A driver who quits without notice could cause quite substantial losses into the thousands or tens of thousands. In the most extreme cases they could also apply an injunction preventing you from working for your new employer during your notice period.

It's all very well saying you don't have to give notice, but if you do that, you are likely to burn bridges. Therefore even if the employer doesn't actively pursue your breach of contract, there is still a high chance that they (and all linked companies) will refuse to employ you again. They might also mention that you didn't work your notice period, in any reference you ask for in the future.

Unless there are exceptional circumstances at play, it's not a risk worth taking.

Having worked in HR in a former life (albeit for an Airline who had a notice period of 12 months for certain Pilots) - it is highly unlikely any employer would take an ex-employee to court for failing to work their notice period. From a legal perspective - you're contract of employment is unlikely to form the foundation for an originating claim for consequent costs (i.e. we had to cancel a train because Johnny only gave 4 weeks notice instead of 6 etc...), the costs of the legal process would be far higher than the potential recovery and from a purely practical view, how would an employer prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the costs being claimed were as a direct result of a person leaving the business inside their expressed notice period? Any good defence would argue the claimant should have suitable contingency to cover events such as staff unavailability, and even if the case did proceed - there would be statutory limits on any amounts that could be claimed, with the vast majority of assumed costs being inadmissible.

At very best, some TOC's have "gentlemen's agreements" between specific other TOC's (normally within the same parent company), which "bans" staff transferring between the TOC's within the agreed notice period. Having said that, with due process being "conditional offer of employment" then "formal offer of employment" for a potential new employer, all the due diligence checks would have been complete and a formal offer of employment accepted by both parties prior to the existing employer contract being terminated. If a former employer then passed on information afterwards, they would be leaving themselves potentially open for a claim against themselves.

As for injunctions, the only situations I have ever been aware of, are where there was a specific term in someone's contract that for commercial reasons - they "weren't allowed to work for XYZ Ltd for a period of XX months after leaving ABC Ltd". I've never known an injunction being issued by a Judge for not working a notice period.
 

Watershed

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it is highly unlikely any employer would take an ex-employee to court for failing to work their notice period.
It's unlikely but it's not unheard of.

From a legal perspective - you're contract of employment is unlikely to form the foundation for an originating claim for consequent costs (i.e. we had to cancel a train because Johnny only gave 4 weeks notice instead of 6 etc...)
I don't know where you get that idea from. It's a pretty straightforward breach of contract - you agreed to give X months' notice of resignation, but you gave none. Therefore all reasonably foreseeable and mitigated costs can be recovered.

the costs of the legal process would be far higher than the potential recovery
For very small amounts, perhaps. But particular in the case of drivers, the costs mount up very quickly. If a driver with a 6 month notice period leaves without giving notice, there could be serious losses at stake. Potentially even beyond the realms of the Small Claims Track, meaning that legal costs would be recoverable.

and from a purely practical view, how would an employer prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the costs being claimed were as a direct result of a person leaving the business inside their expressed notice period?
Quite simple - drivers have established rosters quite some time in advance; any uncovered turns as a result of someone summarily leaving will have to be covered as best as possible (often meaning that inducements are necessary, e.g. "you'll get 12 hours for this 6 hour job). It wouldn't be difficult to tally up the additional amounts paid (e.g. 6 hours' drivers wages in the above example).

It is very unlikely that a replacement driver could be trained up within whatever the notice period is.

Any good defence would argue the claimant should have suitable contingency to cover events such as staff unavailability
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it comes without a cost. As stated above it may require offering overtime at higher rates, for example. I accept that things like Schedule 8 delay penalties and Delay Repay are going to be too remote to recover, but certainly the direct costs of replacing your labour are pretty hard to argue with.

and even if the case did proceed - there would be statutory limits on any amounts that could be claimed, with the vast majority of assumed costs being inadmissible.
There isn't an automatic statutory limit, beyond the fact that losses must be reasonably foreseeable and mitigated, as in any claim.

At very best, some TOC's have "gentlemen's agreements" between specific other TOC's (normally within the same parent company), which "bans" staff transferring between the TOC's within the agreed notice period.
This is quite common, and as you say is realistically speaking the most likely outcome.

Having said that, with due process being "conditional offer of employment" then "formal offer of employment" for a potential new employer, all the due diligence checks would have been complete and a formal offer of employment accepted by both parties prior to the existing employer contract being terminated.
It doesn't always work that way though - I certainly know of companies in the industry where it's routine for people join "on probation" which is only passed once, amongst other checks, references come back satisfactorily. So the fact that you've started doesn't necessarily mean the coast is clear.

If a former employer then passed on information afterwards, they would be leaving themselves potentially open for a claim against themselves.
Obviously it depends on the circumstances, but there is unlikely to be any liability as a result of making a factually true disclosure regarding someone's non-adherance to the notice period. It's a small world and word could easily get round.

As for injunctions, the only situations I have ever been aware of, are where there was a specific term in someone's contract that for commercial reasons - they "weren't allowed to work for XYZ Ltd for a period of XX months after leaving ABC Ltd". I've never known an injunction being issued by a Judge for not working a notice period.
I agree, it'd be pretty rare. But I would never say never; driver training etc. is an expensive and slow business and if someone suddenly quits without notice, it can leave the employer in the lurch. I don't imagine this is routine practice with most of the TOCs but I wouldn't rule it out for some of the smaller players in the industry, where one person leaving could have a really significant impact on the overall business.
 

Tug 62

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Having worked in HR in a former life (albeit for an Airline who had a notice period of 12 months for certain Pilots) - it is highly unlikely any employer would take an ex-employee to court for failing to work their notice period. From a legal perspective - you're contract of employment is unlikely to form the foundation for an originating claim for consequent costs (i.e. we had to cancel a train because Johnny only gave 4 weeks notice instead of 6 etc...), the costs of the legal process would be far higher than the potential recovery and from a purely practical view, how would an employer prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the costs being claimed were as a direct result of a person leaving the business inside their expressed notice period? Any good defence would argue the claimant should have suitable contingency to cover events such as staff unavailability, and even if the case did proceed - there would be statutory limits on any amounts that could be claimed, with the vast majority of assumed costs being inadmissible.

At very best, some TOC's have "gentlemen's agreements" between specific other TOC's (normally within the same parent company), which "bans" staff transferring between the TOC's within the agreed notice period. Having said that, with due process being "conditional offer of employment" then "formal offer of employment" for a potential new employer, all the due diligence checks would have been complete and a formal offer of employment accepted by both parties prior to the existing employer contract being terminated. If a former employer then passed on information afterwards, they would be leaving themselves potentially open for a claim against themselves.

As for injunctions, the only situations I have ever been aware of, are where there was a specific term in someone's contract that for commercial reasons - they "weren't allowed to work for XYZ Ltd for a period of XX months after leaving ABC Ltd". I've never known an injunction being issued by a Judge for not working a n

You don't have to give any notice, what will your employers do, go to the expense of taking you to a tribunal?
You are correct, a very senior ASLEF rep said to me by the time your case came to court your notice period would be over anyway. ASLEF and the RMT would welcome any attempt at "Breach of Contract" in a court as it would laughable. My ex employer threatened me with breach of contract when i left (i gave six weeks notice instead of six months) all that happened was i was paid by my old company and my new company for three months doubling my take home pay. :)
 
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Horizon22

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3 months / 12 weeks is very standard for TOCs (excluding drivers).

May I remind all users to be mindful of the forum rules when getting involved in the discussion regarding notice periods.
 

Watershed

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You are correct, a very senior ASLEF rep said to me by the time your case came to court your notice period would be over anyway.
I don't see that that has any significance. The fact that the breach has finished doesn't stop them from taking action - they have 6 years to do so (the statute of limitations). In fact, they would have little choice but to wait until your notice period is over before bringing any claim, so they can quantify the full costs of your absence.

ASLEF and the RMT would welcome any attempt at "Breach of Contract" in a court as it would laughable.
I'd really love to put myself in the shoes of someone who thinks that breaching a contract has no consequences. What's so laughable about it?

My ex employer threatened me with breach of contract when i left (i gave six weeks notice instead of six months) all that happened was i was paid by my old company and my new company for three months doubling my take home pay. :)
It's true that some employers are all bark and no bite. But it would be wrong to suggest to the OP that ignoring notice periods can't have any consequences.
 

LowLevel

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Our notice period has just increased from 4 weeks to 16 weeks as part of a pay deal (guards).
 

class 9

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To the original post, notice periods vary between TOC/FOCs, anything from 4 weeks to 6 months.
 

43066

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If they suffer a loss as a result (e.g. having to pay colleagues time and a half to cover your shifts, or paying compensation for cancelled trains), it's quite plausible that they would take you to Court. A driver who quits without notice could cause quite substantial losses into the thousands or tens of thousands. In the most extreme cases they could also apply an injunction preventing you from working for your new employer during your notice period.

I’d have to disagree that this is in any way plausible.

The chances of this happening really are so incredibly remote that it can effectively be discounted as a possibility. Quite apart from anything it would be difficult to actually quantify the loss from any one driver not being present, given how many other variables are at play before trains are cancelled (jobs covered by spare drivers rather than RDW, cross covered etc.)

Even if they could be bothered to quantify the loss, which would have to be done in a legally robust way, quite simply it’s likely to cost them more in legal fees to enforce then they would recover from an individual whose assets are unknown. That pretty much defeats the purpose of any litigation!

As for the injunction, again for the costs involved, what would be the point?! Injunctions or this type might (rarely) be sought in relation to key very senior employees where there’s a compelling reason to do so, where they have commercially sensitive information or client lists etc. hardly the case for a train driver.

If I had a six month notice period and that was an issue to a new employer I really wanted to work for, I’d attempt negotiate to leave earlier, but would certainly consider breaching it if there was no alternative.

It's all very well saying you don't have to give notice, but if you do that, you are likely to burn bridges. Therefore even if the employer doesn't actively pursue your breach of contract, there is still a high chance that they (and all linked companies) will refuse to employ you again. They might also mention that you didn't work your notice period, in any reference you ask for in the future.

Unless there are exceptional circumstances at play, it's not a risk worth taking.

I’d agree with the burning bridges point. The railway is a small place and people have long memories. References by most large companies (which of course TOCs are) are generally impersonal and given out as a boilerplate: “person X was employed from date Y to date Z”.
 
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Efini92

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I’d have to disagree that this is in any way plausible.

The chances of this happening really are so incredibly remote that it can effectively be discounted as a possibility. Quite apart from anything it would be difficult to actually quantify the loss from any one driver not being present, given how many other variables are at play before trains are cancelled (jobs covered by spare drivers rather than RDW, cross covered etc.)

Even if they could be bothered to quantify the loss, which would have to be done in a legally robust way, quite simply it’s likely to cost them more in legal fees to enforce then they would recover from an individual whose assets are unknown. That pretty much defeats the purpose of any litigation!

As for the injunction, again for the costs involved, what would be the point?! Injunctions or this type might (rarely) be sought in relation to key very senior employees where there’s a compelling reason to do so, where they have commercially sensitive information or client lists etc. hardly the case for a train driver.

If I had a six month notice period and that was an issue to a new employer I really wanted to work for, I’d attempt negotiate to leave earlier, but would certainly consider breaching it if there was no alternative.



I’d agree with the burning bridges point. The railway is a small place and people have long memories. References by most large companies (which of course TOCs are) are generally impersonal and given out as a boilerplate: “person X was employed from date Y to date Z”.
That last point sums it up. You never know who your next boss is going to be.
 

YingYing

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Thanks for all your responses, I only asked because I'm currently in a non-rail role where I only have to give 1 week's notice, so it was a bit disconcerting when I initially read it. I totally understand the reasons for it.
 

NorthernTech

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Thanks for all your responses, I only asked because I'm currently in a non-rail role where I only have to give 1 week's notice, so it was a bit disconcerting when I initially read it. I totally understand the reasons for it.
Nice and flexible only having to give a week! Are you close to securing a role?
 

TheVicLine

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3 month at my TOC.

Difficult to enforce though, someone joined our TOC a few years ago without working their notice and nothing happened and I know of a few who have left too. Obviously there would probably be issues if you ever wanted to go back and work for the company again.
 

Starmill

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Almost no employers would act on people leaving in breach of their notice. However, by the same token, almost all employers would view it as highly improper conduct at best. It's always advisable not to do so, as there's no telling exactly how they might get you with it. I've heard of one case where the employer refused to give back personal items which had been left at work!

Some employees, especially those aged over 50, also negotiate their notice periods up to as much as six months, because it gives them more time to plan in the event of redundancy. Can be quite an effective strategy.
 
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