TOCs and the use of cheap agency platform staff

[Robertj21a]

I do have a massive chip on my shoulder about it, its a professional industry now having their pay, terms and conditions eroded away all for the benefit of the shareholder. Paying a platform colleague with all the tickets £23-25k a year, more based on shift allowances vs paying someone earning minimum wage or pence above who is not guaranteed hours, sending them home early to save money and giving them the very basic tools to do their job (no continued improvement) shows what the TOCs think about their benefit to the railway.
Saving £5-8k a year + Pension rights per person mounts up over say 1000 staff, it could end up saving close to £10m a year and that's the margins some of the TOCs are running on.

As you say yourself, you have a massive chip on your shoulder, seemingly because you don't actually have all the facts. I'm guessing that you'd still say much the same even with the benefit of facts - some people simply rant on forever more.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

In the case of Ontrak for example after 12 weeks they pay their agency workers the same rate of pay as a permanent member of staff due to the Agency Working Regulations. However they obviously do not have the same pay, conditions and pensions. I know GTR are scaling back their use of agency staff at the moment with a view to bring it all in house. It got progressively worse when DOO was introduced as it meant that at a lot of stations where they used to dispatch to a Conductor they required extra staff reasonably quickly.

Carlisle on TPE and STM on London Overground however to use two examples are different as they simply contract out a lot of their station staffing functions to what are basically facilities companies who provide, employ and are responsible for the staff not that much different to Ground Handling Agents at Airports and therefore pay whatever they wish too.

 

[Ivor]

If you search my posts I mainly refer to ONTRAK as I work for them although that work is dwindling to very little now since Southern have had a recent recruitment drive.

I did want to say re training I was Gateline trained by Southern at their training centre although ONTRAK do most of it I was lucky in that respect.

I’ve worked several times covering TTS often alongside the fraud team. I was trained by Southern for that & I was ramp trained by Southern.

I have highlighted before in my posts the poor agency training (or lack of) & many members here have given me great intel when I have had concerns especially on H&S.

When covering platforms normally solo I’ve had to encounter a trespasser where I’ve had to stop trains, get power off etc

I’ve had to deal with being seriously threatened by a few idiots when on my own where I couldn’t even get to the office (or kitchen is about the only thing we have access to)

Not saying I’m the only one as most of you TOC ladies & gents have had to deal with far more harrowing incidents than myself.

I know a good number of agency staff who I would recommend to any TOC (not that is my say of course) equally I’ve worked with a good number I wouldn’t put in charge of a mop (I clean toilets too)

This thread struck a chord & yes I do think there are rightly concerns re agency staff especially re training but many of us also do nothing but ask advice from TOC staff most of which are brilliant although a few wouldn’t even say hi (fortunately not many) or gain advice here, that doesn’t make it right though.

 

[Ivor]

Likewise if agency staff are doing safety critical work then despite the negatives of a zero hour contract, they must be getting paid a fairly good hourly wage.

Platform work is about £1 an hour above minimum wage.

 

[Ivor]

I agree with them freeing up important TOC staff by cleaning toilets and cleaning the platforms.

Yep that’s what us bottom of the barrel agency staff are good for.....cleaning toilets & sweeping up & we should be grateful for the opportunity

 

[LowLevel]

Yep that’s what us bottom of the barrel agency staff are good for.....cleaning toilets & sweeping up & we should be grateful for the opportunity

To be fair you shouldn't be doing any of it (as an agency worker, not a person! I'm sure I'm perfectly competent to do the job). You should be an in house worker as you're doing front line railway work, enjoying the same benefits and pay as the rest of us.

We receive discounted/free train tickets for friends and family as part of our employee perks and most of mine over the years of my employment have, disgracefully in my opinion, gone to our cleaners and so on to use the trains they work so hard on.

Personally speaking I refuse to charge our contractors I've been working with for many years for their journeys to work when I see their employer's senior managers swanning around the place on bearer passes for free.

 

[Ivor]

To be fair you shouldn't be doing any of it (as an agency worker, not a person! I'm sure I'm perfectly competent to do the job). You should be an in house worker as you're doing front line railway work, enjoying the same benefits and pay as the rest of us.

We receive discounted/free train tickets for friends and family as part of our employee perks and most of mine over the years of my employment have, disgracefully in my opinion, gone to our cleaners and so on to use the trains they work so hard on.

Personally speaking I refuse to charge our contractors I've been working with for many years for their journeys to work when I see their employer's senior managers swanning around the place on bearer passes for free.

Well we get a travel letter to & from shifts but we are told in no uncertain terms it’s for use on work time only which in fairness is the agreement the agency gave with the TOC

For my personal trips & I use the train to London mainly 3 or 4 times a month plus a few more localised journeys I buy tickets to travel but we know as an agency worker on zero hours there are no ‘perks’ but it is what it is & I won’t complain as we know the rules from the off.

 

[185]

Same setup at Leeds, they might wear TPE uniform but are employed by Carlisle Group. Gone on for at least 12 years.
There’s another thread about their dispatch procedures somewhere else.

At the start of that contract, there were a number of despatch against red, caused by staff in their 10th & 11th hour of shift being half asleep. It just wasn't safe, and a regulatory body were inclined to agree. The first thing the train company did? ....start a hunt for who snitched on them.

 

[matt_world2004]

If you are an agency staff member for a TfL service Eg London Overground, or TfL rail you can get a contractor Oyster card which covers home to work travel and duty related travel on TfL services. Problem is MTR and London Overground appear reluctant to issue them as they become responsible for misuse.

 

[ComUtoR]

At the start of that contract, there were a number of despatch against red, caused by staff in their 10th & 11th hour of shift being half asleep. It just wasn't safe, and a regulatory body were inclined to agree. The first thing the train company did? ....start a hunt for who snitched on them.

Platforms staff at my TOC regularly work 12hr shifts.

 

[Robertj21a]

Platforms staff at my TOC regularly work 12hr shifts.

Quite. I wouldn't have thought that 12 hour shifts, with appropriate breaks, was very unusual.

 

[Ivor]

Quite. I wouldn't have thought that 12 hour shifts, with appropriate breaks, was very unusual.

When I work solo at a station I get 8 hour shifts, whenever I’ve worked bigger stations with a number of staff covering it’s always been 12 hour shifts.

 

[farleigh]

Good posts those Ivor.

 

[2L70]

Platforms staff at my TOC regularly work 12hr shifts.

Is that a 3 day week then?

 

[ComUtoR]

Is that a 3 day week then?

Ours have a 5 day week Depending on which roster you have or what grade you are then it can vary considerably because of how their rest day pattern works.

12hr Weekends, 12hr Nights pretty standard stuff. Most, if not all, our platform dispatchers at my local station work 12hrs every weekend.

 

[Ivor]

Good posts those Ivor.

Thanks....just sticking my two pence worth in as I seem to be the only agency person on here....call out to Ontrak, ProActive Rail, Adecco staff etc ....where are you? It’s lonely here

 

[TFN]

Thanks....just sticking my two pence worth in as I seem to be the only agency person on here....call out to Ontrak, ProActive Rail, Adecco staff etc ....where are you? It’s lonely here

You're not alone

I'm an agency worker but not a despatcher although I do work on trains for a TOC and do platform work for another TOC. The guys at the TOCs who get to know us treat us really well and no differently compared.

Like any other job out there (TOC or Agency) there are bad eggs but hey ho.

In my agency, I'm not allowed to work more than 12 hours onboard trains or doing platform work.

Be kind to the rest of us please. I've been in the railway for 3 years and have worked on different TOCs. The flexibility that an agency has is the most valuable thing to someone like me and as a student while working at the railway, I'm grateful for them treating me well.

 

[Ivor]

You're not alone

I'm an agency worker but not a despatcher although I do work on trains for a TOC and do platform work for another TOC. The guys at the TOCs who get to know us treat us really well and no differently compared.

Like any other job out there (TOC or Agency) there are bad eggs but hey ho.

In my agency, I'm not allowed to work more than 12 hours onboard trains or doing platform work.

Be kind to the rest of us please. I've been in the railway for 3 years and have worked on different TOCs. The flexibility that an agency has is the most valuable thing to someone like me and as a student while working at the railway, I'm grateful for them treating me well.

Good to hear as an agency worker that you’re treated well, refreshing in fact.

Yes flexibility is great, the issue we have my way is the TOC has taken on a lot of their own staff hence shifts of late for agency staff (Gateline, Dispatch, Platform) are becoming nigh on non existent, past 3 weeks I’ve not had a shift! I've even offered to travel further but it’s now a problem across my stretch of line & beyond.

In fairness it’s no fault of the agency if the TOC do not require agency cover now then it is what it is unfortunately.

 

[SlimJim1694]

I do agree that way too many workers get a raw deal and that should absolutely be dealt

This is what I think too. If someone is doing the same job as a permanent member of staff they should be treated the same.

I do have a massive chip on my shoulder about it, its a professional industry now having their pay, terms and conditions eroded away all for the benefit of the shareholder. Paying a platform colleague with all the tickets £23-25k a year, more based on shift allowances vs paying someone earning minimum wage or pence above who is not guaranteed hours, sending them home early to save money and giving them the very basic tools to do their job (no continued improvement) shows what the TOCs think about their benefit to the railway.
Saving £5-8k a year + Pension rights per person mounts up over say 1000 staff, it could end up saving close to £10m a year and that's the margins some of the TOCs are running on.

I agree. I dont know about the safety side of it. I assume if someone is wearing a company uniform and dispatching my train then they are fully qualified to do that. I can think of a few permanent train dispatchers who dont give a s*** so I'm not going to have an issue with agency staff dispatching my train if they are qualified.

Just because someone works for an agency, it doesn't make them any lesser of an employee.

It does though. They dont get same pay, pension or terms and conditions. That's my problem with the use of agency staff. Permanent bloke gets ill and goes sick he gets paid, agency bloke gets ill with the same thing and goes off he gets FA. Either the agency workers kids dont eat or he comes to work when he's not fit.

The first thing anyone must do when they suspect that safety is being compromised is to report it.

I'd be on the phone every time some of my colleagues went near a train if I had to do that!

 

[matt_world2004]

12 hours a day , outside without some sort of comprnsstory rest seems like it could lead to a high degree of tiredness.it can be quite physically demanding doing a repetitive job like despatching a train in an environment that is either too hot or too cold

 

[Edders23]

I do have a massive chip on my shoulder about it, its a professional industry now having their pay, terms and conditions eroded away all for the benefit of the shareholder. Paying a platform colleague with all the tickets £23-25k a year, more based on shift allowances vs paying someone earning minimum wage or pence above who is not guaranteed hours, sending them home early to save money and giving them the very basic tools to do their job (no continued improvement) shows what the TOCs think about their benefit to the railway.
Saving £5-8k a year + Pension rights per person mounts up over say 1000 staff, it could end up saving close to £10m a year and that's the margins some of the TOCs are running on.

So you think working on the railway should be a very highly paid exclusive club nut at whose expense the customers paying ticket prices well above the European average or the taxpayer perhaps and to afford it how about a few thousand less nurses for our hospitals

Our railways are incredibly expensive to run so you can understand the use of agency staff but remember if the chap from the agency is on minimum wage the TOC is probably paying about £20.00 an hour for them agency's often charge the client more than double the actual wage they are paying

 

[Ivor]

If someone is doing the same job as a permanent member of staff they should be treated the same.


They don't get same pay, pension or terms and conditions. That's my problem with the use of agency staff. Permanent bloke gets ill and goes sick he gets paid, agency bloke gets ill with the same thing and goes off he gets FA. Either the agency workers kids dont eat or he comes to work when he’s not fit

Thanks Jim....someone who gets it

Unfortunately I don’t think we will see the zero hour contract outlawed any time soon, if I’m honest if it was many businesses could compromise safety by not wanting to pay the going rate & up the conditions then not take on the numbers to cover shifts correctly.

 

[Monty]

I have my own opinions about agency staff, not all of it is positive sadly. Some however do seem well motivated and keen, especially some of the barrier staff I've spoken too. My main objection is that some of these people are working long hours with none of the benefits of being a direct employee of the TOC and it just gives me the impression these people are expendable as far as the rail industry as a whole is concerned.

So my main issue with agency doing train dispatch duties is their training. Now this mainly because of the poor job agencies do in training gateline and other customer service roles, so why expect it to be any different just because the role is a safety critical one? That said some here have explained that at the very least the relevant competencies are managed by the TOC themselves which does put my mind at rest somewhat.

End of the day's these agencies often have a high turnover of staff and are out to make a quick buck with short term contracts from rail companies. They do not have the best interests of their staff or the industry at heart.

 

[Ivor]

Our railways are incredibly expensive to run so you can understand the use of agency staff but remember if the chap from the agency is on minimum wage the TOC is probably paying about £20.00 an hour for them agency's often charge the client more than double the actual wage they are paying

Spot on

 

[johnnychips]

In reply to post #51, I thought one of the big problems with the NHS was hospitals etc. having to pay over the top rates for agency staff. If TOCs are paying these rates of £20/hour for ‘regular’ agency staff (not for a seasonal or temporary demand), why not take them on full-time? I presume it’s still cheaper when you factor in employers’ NI contribution, sick pay and so on. It really is the race to the bottom.

 

[2L70]

So you think working on the railway should be a very highly paid exclusive club nut at whose expense the customers paying ticket prices well above the European average or the taxpayer perhaps and to afford it how about a few thousand less nurses for our hospitals

You’re a Taxi Driver aren’t you?

You’re a one to talk about cartels. £13 for a 15 min journey by car at 9pm on Saturday where I am. Fortunately I don’t have to use them that often.

 

[ComUtoR]

It does though. They dont get same pay, pension or terms and conditions. That's my problem with the use of agency staff. Permanent bloke gets ill and goes sick he gets paid, agency bloke gets ill with the same thing and goes off he gets FA. Either the agency workers kids dont eat or he comes to work when he's not fit.

The flexibility that an agency has is the most valuable thing to someone like me and as a student while working at the railway, I'm grateful for them treating me well.

Agency work offers employment to those who need it or may otherwise not be employed. It does offer flexibility and it does give people the option when and where they wish to work. There is a downside to that and the loss of pension, sick pay etc can be a hard pill to swallow When I had my first kid, my partner worked for an agency. It was a struggle on SMP and a single income but temping was the best option for employment at the time. It suits a lot of people and it can lead to permanent employment.

Unfortunately I don’t think we will see the zero hour contract outlawed any time soon

I was zero hour once. It suited me and I managed to fit work into a busy social life. Zero hours is another double edged sword that suits the employee and the employer but often gets abused.

Self employed, short term contracts etc also don't pay pension or in work benefits.

 

[Ivor]

End of the day's these agencies often have a high turnover of staff and are out to make a quick buck with short term contracts from rail companies. They do not have the best interests of their staff or the industry at heart.

I can only comment on what’s happening at Southern Monty I do wonder if other TOCs are also slowly moving away from agency staff towards PAYE staff?

If that’s the case I can only see a place for agency staff when there are special projects such as engineering works when many staff are drafted in to help with crowd control & bus replacement etc

 

[Edders23]

You’re a Taxi Driver aren’t you?

You’re a one to talk about cartels. £13 for a 15 min journey by car at 9pm on Saturday where I am. Fortunately I don’t have to use them that often.

clearly you live in about the only area of the country which isn't over competitive the average taxi driver in most parts of the uk struggle to earn £5 an hour !!

even the London boys earn much less than 10 years ago

 

[C J Snarzell]

I believe there are plans to push the minimum wage to over £10 an hour by 2022. Although I do think this will have a massive impact on companies and the working practices for using agency staff.

Having worked for an agency myself a short time many moons ago, I know the agencies make a wedge by taking a cut of the earnings the company pay you for. For example, a warehouse or factory will pay the agency £15 or £20 an hour to use one of their agency workers. The agency will then take the cut & pay the agency employee what's left which is currently £8.71 an hour (UK minimum wage) for unskilled labour. That means that for a 10 hour shift - an agency will recieve £20 for - they will get £112.90 while the worker gets £87.10 which is taxable at the lowest rate.

Without going into the maths and the calculations, some recruitment agencies can be making a small fortune. However, like I said in my previous post I'm not a big fan of agencies because I think there are some pretty ruthless ones out there who are not what I would consider reputable. One of my mum's former neighbours was a recruitment consultant and was driving round in a £50,000 BMW while he was employing Eastern European people in a horrific factory environment. I believe the same neighbour ended up being investigated by the Inland Revenue for his tax declarations.

Surprising, the town where I'm from has about five individual agency offices within stones throw of one another and they never seem short of people in there which does suggest there is still a market for people wanting zero hour contracts and who are prepared to do what's necessary to put food on the table.

CJ