TOD with a different bank card

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blakey1152

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Good morning,
I'm sure there is someone that can answer this. One of my friends needs to come down to London tomorrow but doesn't have enough money to buy a ticket. I don't mind helping him out, however, I am well aware that if I sent him the money to his bank account that it would get spent at the local wetherspoons rather than on the train ticket he needs!! Lol

When I've purchased TOD in the past it's asked me to put in the card that I used to buy the tickets which is fine.

Now I'm sure that I've read that certain booking engines will allow any card to be used to collect the tickets with the correct reference number. If this is the case I would happily buy the tickets on my end and he can use his card and my reference number to pick them up.

Is this still the case and which sites allow me to do it this way?

Thank you
 
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sonic2009

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I've used the trainline with Google Pay and any card before on the mobile app. Just make sure you select the option to collect ticket from the machine, as some are mobile tickets only.
 

Hadders

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Purchase an e-gift voucher for the exact amount of the fare and use this to purchase the ticket. Any card collection is then enabled.

You can do this with the Worldline sites, e.g. Transpennine, GWR, SWR and (I think) LNER.
 

blakey1152

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Purchase an e-gift voucher for the exact amount of the fare and use this to purchase the ticket. Any card collection is then enabled.

You can do this with the Worldline sites, e.g. Transpennine, GWR, SWR and (I think) LNER.
I'll use this method. I couldn't find any reference to TOD at Transpennine or gift vouchers at SWR however it was mentioned at GWR but they have squirrelled the option to buy gift vouchers away somewhere so I could only find the relevant page using Google!
And you can only buy them with an empty basket I noticed as well as my first idea was to try and add a journey to the basket to see if I could buy a gift voucher to pay for it but alas not :)
 

Haywain

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Good morning,
I'm sure there is someone that can answer this. One of my friends needs to come down to London tomorrow but doesn't have enough money to buy a ticket. I don't mind helping him out, however, I am well aware that if I sent him the money to his bank account that it would get spent at the local wetherspoons rather than on the train ticket he needs!! Lol

When I've purchased TOD in the past it's asked me to put in the card that I used to buy the tickets which is fine.

Now I'm sure that I've read that certain booking engines will allow any card to be used to collect the tickets with the correct reference number. If this is the case I would happily buy the tickets on my end and he can use his card and my reference number to pick them up.

Is this still the case and which sites allow me to do it this way?

Thank you
On LNER you can use various methods of payment (PayPal, Apple Pay, Google Pay) that will not require same card collection. However, if the journey can be made using an eTicket you can simply buy the ticket and email it on to your friend - then the means of payment doesn't matter.
 

blakey1152

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On LNER you can use various methods of payment (PayPal, Apple Pay, Google Pay) that will not require same card collection. However, if the journey can be made using an eTicket you can simply buy the ticket and email it on to your friend - then the means of payment doesn't matter.
An even easier option!
Thank you again
 

Wallsendmag

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On LNER you can use various methods of payment (PayPal, Apple Pay, Google Pay) that will not require same card collection. However, if the journey can be made using an eTicket you can simply buy the ticket and email it on to your friend - then the means of payment doesn't matter.
We don't take Apple Pay and Google pay online, everywhere else but not online.
 

Argyle 1980

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We don't take Apple Pay and Google pay online, everywhere else but not online.
Would a Samsung pay transaction with LNER behave in the same way as it would with some other TOCs and recognise it as a physical card and ask for it to be inserted upon collection?
 

Haywain

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Would a Samsung pay transaction with LNER behave in the same way as it would with some other TOCs and recognise it as a physical card and ask for it to be inserted upon collection?
I would be very surprised if we have tried that. Until this week I had never even heard of Samsung Pay, despite having used a Samsung phone for several years.
 

_toommm_

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I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t accept it online and yes if we did we’d need the card although you can collect ToD with contactless.

TOD with contactless? Is that just with your TVMs then as most TVMs prompt you to insert the card.
 

Argyle 1980

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I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t accept it online and yes if we did we’d need the card although you can collect ToD with contactless.
Why wouldn't it be accepted online? Unless their merchant system has a way of detecting and blocking a Mastercard Debit card through it's BIN number.

TOD with contactless? Is that just with your TVMs then as most TVMs prompt you to insert the card.
About contactless for TOD collection? Would that work with virtual cards and Samsung Pay? Because the card number changes and generates a completely new number at point of sale. So would the TVM see this as a different card?

I know the issue I had with the PayZilch app with GWR last week where GWRs site and TVM recognised the card as a physical card and not a virtual card so I was obviously unable to collect them.

Samsung pay is different as it does come with a physical Mastercard, but there are no card details on this card as they are only revealed in the app when requested, along with the pin number.
I need to book a ticket Plymouth to Leeds this week so was intending to use LNER site to sign up to their new rewards scheme. As it will be a TOD/Post only fulfilment option because of TFL, then I'll try it with Samsung Pay this time and see if the TVM accepts the card to collect and report back.
 
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alistairlees

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Why wouldn't it be accepted online? Unless their merchant system has a way of detecting and blocking a Mastercard Debit card through it's BIN number.


About contactless for TOD collection? Would that work with virtual cards and Samsung Pay? Because the card number changes and generates a completely new number at point of sale. So would the TVM see this as a different card?

I know the issue I had with the PayZilch app with GWR last week where GWRs site and TVM recognised the card as a physical card and not a virtual card so I was obviously unable to collect them.

Samsung pay is different as it does come with a physical Mastercard, but there are no card details on this card as they are only revealed in the app when requested, along with the pin number.
I need to book a ticket Plymouth to Leeds this week so was intending to use LNER site to sign up to their new rewards scheme. As it will be a TOD/Post only fulfilment option because of TFL, then I'll try it with Samsung Pay this time and see if the TVM accepts the card to collect and report back.
Payment methods like Samsung Pay are methods with which the retailer needs to decide to integrate in order for payment using them to be accepted. There's a time and cost involved with this (as well as an ever increasingly complex UI on the payment page, as more payment options are added).

PayPal, Apple Pay, Google Pay, Visa Pay, Amazon Pay, Alipay etc. are all the same as Samsung Pay, in the sense that a retailer needs to decide to integrate with them before payment via them can be accepted. There will usually be different integration kits for iOS, Android and web too.

What all of these have in common is that the card used for payment is not known to the retailer; so ToD collection must be set as "any". It is irrelevant what type of card (virtual or real) you are using in these payment apps, as it is never revealed to the retailer.

If you pay with a card directly - i.e. you enter the card details into the retailer's website - then (in almost all cases*) this will be set to "same card collection". So, if you have used a card that physically exists and that you take with you to the station, then you will be fine. But if you have entered a virtual card (I'm not sure this is possible?) then you would be unable to collect the tickets because you would not physically possess the card to insert in the machine on collection.

Once at the machine, whether you insert the card or tap it (contactless) is - I imagine - functionally irrelevent. Both serve to collect details of the long card number in order to compare with the data in the database used for ToD. It's just that the form of doing this is different.

*on some websites, such as Trainline, if you are a regular (logged in) trusted customer then you will be able to any card collection.
 

HBP

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What all of these have in common is that the card used for payment is not known to the retailer; so ToD collection must be set as "any". It is irrelevant what type of card (virtual or real) you are using in these payment apps, as it is never revealed to the retailer.

Not quite sure if that is still the case and certainly not when using GWR. When accessing my expense receipts through GWR on desk top it shows the underlying payment method used via Apple Pay. I’ve no idea if the card number details are sent but they certainly know the type Visa, Mastercard or Amex etc.



56ED712B-81FA-4D99-981E-E49BBC2E0FBF.png
 

Wallsendmag

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Not quite sure if that is still the case and certainly not when using GWR. When accessing my expense receipts through GWR on desk top it shows the underlying payment method used via Apple Pay. I’ve no idea if the card number details are sent but they certainly know the type Visa, Mastercard or Amex etc.



View attachment 100147
Yes the card type is sent but the payment details are a one time token which will not have any details of the physical card number.
 

crablab

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Because the card number changes and generates a completely new number at point of sale.

This is a common misconception.

For CDCVM, the device will have DPAN which is different to the PAN on the front of the card, but it is static. If you delete and re-add the card, it will change as the DPAN is generated at the time of tokenisation (eg. through MDES).

It does not change between transactions.

Yes the card type is sent but the payment details are a one time token which will not have any details of the physical card number.

This is quite a specific and new service - MDES for Merchants (other networks etc.)

When paying with Google/Apple Pay online ("Pay with Google Pay"), it is ultimately still a standard transaction underneath at the card network level even though you aren't entering the card details yourself (you wouldn't be able to anyway, since it isn't ordinarily possible to extract the DPAN from your mobile wallet).

There can be, however, additional tokenisation so each merchant receives a unique token (not a PAN as such) to represent a card they have seen. The tokenisation is at the merchant, instead of at the device now.

So, the PAN from the physical card only needs to be entered once and breaches can be tracked down to an individual merchants (although the tokens are useless to anyone except that specific merchant).

To be clear, MDES for Merchants is only possible with the normal card PAN. This is because device wallets are already using a tokenised PAN.

But if you have entered a virtual card (I'm not sure this is possible?)

It's an interesting conundrum. The BIN ranges are different and identifiable, but as an Acquirer you are not permitted to discriminate against different (for example) Mastercards. You must accept all or nothing, and that includes virtual cards, contactless (where supported) and mobile device payments.

In practice, there is an excellent example of a merchant who already has a similar issue resolved: TfL.

When you tap in with your iPhone and Apple Pay at the gateline, TfL is given the DPAN from the device wallet.

You will note, however, that if you were to go the TfL website and want to add a contactless card to your account so you could see your journey history, it's asking for the card PAN. The PAN off the front of your card.

So TfL knows the DPAN but not the PAN, and you know the PAN but not the DPAN.

The solution is that TfL is a 'special case', and is allowed to look up DPANs against the PAN (in a similar way to the issuer).

That way, it can link your physical card to (all) the virtual DPAN(s) you used at the gateline. You will note if you've removed and re-added a card to Apple Pay but the underlying plastic card PAN stayed the same, TfL will show you all the previous DPANs for that PAN it saw.

I doubt that TOCs etc. have the facility to do this (not least because it all so distributed), so I'm not sure how you would collect the ticket. I have vague recollections of this issue coming past me before, so if my memory is accurate that means it was resolved via chargeback.

I have booked a ticket with a virtual card so I can let you know how it all works out ;)

screenshot_2021-07-24-201255.png

---

I hope that all makes some kind of sense - it's quite difficult to explain :)

Glossary:

PAN = Primary Account Number
DPAN = Device Primary Account Number
CDCVM = Consumer Device Customer Verification Method
MDES = Mastercard Device Enrolment Service
 

pinkmarie80

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Argyle- cheers for the heads up re Zilch. I nearly used it to buy a ticket the other day but used my physical Visa Debit instead. I’ll have to remember tha.
 

Argyle 1980

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Payment methods like Samsung Pay are methods with which the retailer needs to decide to integrate in order for payment using them to be accepted. There's a time and cost involved with this (as well as an ever increasingly complex UI on the payment page, as more payment options are added).

PayPal, Apple Pay, Google Pay, Visa Pay, Amazon Pay, Alipay etc. are all the same as Samsung Pay, in the sense that a retailer needs to decide to integrate with them before payment via them can be accepted. There will usually be different integration kits for iOS, Android and web too.

What all of these have in common is that the card used for payment is not known to the retailer; so ToD collection must be set as "any". It is irrelevant what type of card (virtual or real) you are using in these payment apps, as it is never revealed to the retailer.

If you pay with a card directly - i.e. you enter the card details into the retailer's website - then (in almost all cases*) this will be set to "same card collection". So, if you have used a card that physically exists and that you take with you to the station, then you will be fine. But if you have entered a virtual card (I'm not sure this is possible?) then you would be unable to collect the tickets because you would not physically possess the card to insert in the machine on collection.

Once at the machine, whether you insert the card or tap it (contactless) is - I imagine - functionally irrelevent. Both serve to collect details of the long card number in order to compare with the data in the database used for ToD. It's just that the form of doing this is different.

*on some websites, such as Trainline, if you are a regular (logged in) trusted customer then you will be able to any card collection.
The difference between Apple/Google pay etc and Samsung Pay is that the former two need an online retailer to actually accept it as a payment option such as Klarna etc. Samsung Pay however doesn't need a retailer to specifically accept Samsung Pay as it generates a Mastercard number to pay with as if it was a normal debit card.
I know Samsung Pay use to send out a physical Mastercard too to back up the online app account. Not sure if they still send them out as standard when you set up Samsung Pay on your phone but they can definitely be requested from Curve (Samsung Pay card issuer)
Like I alluded in other posts. This physical card has absolutely no details printed on card except your name and the hologram. All the details are randomly generated in the app priorto a transaction. I'm going to experiment when I buy a Plymouth Leeds ticket later and see if the TVM let's me collect with the physical card and report back.

Argyle- cheers for the heads up re Zilch. I nearly used it to buy a ticket the other day but used my physical Visa Debit instead. I’ll have to remember tha.
I messaged Zilch about this anomaly and they are fully aware of this and for other instances where a retailer might wish to see a physical card.
They told me that issuing physical cards is something being considered by them, just there are contractual issues to iron out. Mainly because just like Klarna it's not actually classed as credit so nothing apart from a soft search appears on your credit file.
 
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alistairlees

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The difference between Apple/Google pay etc and Samsung Pay is that the former two need an online retailer to actually accept it as a payment option such as Klarna etc. Samsung Pay however doesn't need a retailer to specifically accept Samsung Pay as it generates a Mastercard number to pay with as if it was a normal debit card.
Samsung's own website says:
You can also pay with Samsung Pay within participating websites and apps, where you see Samsung Pay Checkout button.
Samsung provides a Developer's Portal to integrate Samsung Pay into websites and apps to do this. It soundsvery similar to Apple Pay, Alipay etc.

Maybe they also give you a card using one of the card schemes such as Visa, with which you can pay on websites. But that isn't using Samsung Pay, it's using a Visa (or whatever) card.
 

Agent_c

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For those wanting air miles, I can confirm the Virgin red app’s rail ticket system appears to allow any ticket collection. My wife tried to buy some tickets the other week but little did she know her chip didn’t work. We stuck in my Amex instead and it worked. You also get 3 Virgin Atlantic points per £1 that way
 

CrispyUK

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Samsung Pay is another variant of Apple Pay, Google Pay, etc. and as alistairlees has said, would need to be implemented as a payment option for apps/websites.

Samsung Pay+ gives you a physical card, powered by Curve, this allows you to use your Samsung Pay cards for non-contactless transactions. There is no number shown on the card, but this is just a security feature, the card will have a fixed number, and this can be revealed in the app to use it on websites that don’t natively support Samsung Pay, as it’s essentially just a MasterCard with the issuer (Curve) providing the technology behind it.

If you’re using the number to purchase tickets, then you should be able to collect them using the physical card, as it will have the same number.
 

father_jack

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I need to book a ticket Plymouth to Leeds this week so was intending to use LNER site to sign up to their new rewards scheme. As it will be a TOD/Post only fulfilment option because of TFL, then I'll try it with Samsung Pay this time and see if the TVM accepts the card to collect and report back.
The Worldline TVMs at Plymouth won't do contactless/Samsung pay in lieu of physical card entry to start the collection process. Lots of people are getting caught out when the ticket office is closed. The Fujitsu STAR machine in the ticket office will accept a Samsung/Apple pay "beep" at the end of its process.
 

Argyle 1980

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Booked a Plymouth to Leeds return (2x First class advance singles £86 each way) on LNER site and paid with Samsung Pay. Booked separately an off peak single Leeds to Bradford interchange in a separate transaction but with the PayZilch app.
Went to collect them this morning, firstly with the physical Samsung Pay card (Didn't work) and was asked to insert card use. And same story with the other ticket purchased with the PayZilch app.
So this looks like it's a TVM issue opposed to a retailer issue. Incidentally I've booked my daughter tickets via GWR site before, which she's collected from the Dover Priory or Canterbury East TVM with a different card without a problem.
 

Wallsendmag

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Booked a Plymouth to Leeds return (2x First class advance singles £86 each way) on LNER site and paid with Samsung Pay. Booked separately an off peak single Leeds to Bradford interchange in a separate transaction but with the PayZilch app.
Went to collect them this morning, firstly with the physical Samsung Pay card (Didn't work) and was asked to insert card use. And same story with the other ticket purchased with the PayZilch app.
So this looks like it's a TVM issue opposed to a retailer issue. Incidentally I've booked my daughter tickets via GWR site before, which she's collected from the Dover Priory or Canterbury East TVM with a different card without a problem.
We are having issues with some TVMs that have just been placed back into action after 16 months out of service for social distancing. It could be that the card numbers just don't tie up.
 
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Argyle 1980

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Looks to me like a customer issue. The instructions on how to collect a ToD are fairly clear.
Please show me where on GWRs site where it warns against the use of virtual cards as you'll be unable to collect from any of it's TVMs unless it was booked with a physical card that can be produced when collecting?
These cards are becoming more and more common and there will be people with absolutely no knowledge of the collection issues falling foul of this.
Until such time that TOD is no longer required, then problems like this will exist. The ticket I bought (Plymouth-Leeds) obviously isn't available as an eticket, neither is my most regular journey to Kent, so it's a very regular problem.

FYI. I asked Southeastern a couple of years ago about ticket collection with a different card because they don't offer etickets as I had to buy my daughter a lot of tickets that couldn't just be forwarded to her and SE told me their machines will allow any card to be used, and to this day she has never experienced a problem.
 

CyrusWuff

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Please show me where on GWRs site where it warns against the use of virtual cards as you'll be unable to collect from any of it's TVMs unless it was booked with a physical card that can be produced when collecting?
If you click on "more info" under "Collect your ticket from the station" on the Delivery Details page, one of the bullet points is "Please do not pay for your tickets with an e-Card as these are not accepted by self service ticket machines". It could certainly be more prominent and clearer, I'll grant you.

A quick glance at other sites suggests that it's only WebTIS sites that have such a warning. I can't find similar on Chiltern, Trainline, LNER, GTR, c2c, or Raileasy.
 

Haywain

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These cards are becoming more and more common
More common than what? It's not a problem I've encountered for a long time and there is no clamour from our staff or customers to make changes because of these 'cards'. And there is not going to be a change to ToD procedures because the industry priority is to do away with ToD.
 

js517

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PayPal, Apple Pay, Google Pay, Visa Pay, Amazon Pay, Alipay etc. are all the same as Samsung Pay, in the sense that a retailer needs to decide to integrate with them before payment via them can be accepted. There will usually be different integration kits for iOS, Android and web too.

What all of these have in common is that the card used for payment is not known to the retailer; so ToD collection must be set as "any". It is irrelevant what type of card (virtual or real) you are using in these payment apps, as it is never revealed to the retailer.
There is a slight complication with Google Pay - it actually has two different tokenization types. In one of these the real masked card digits are available to the retailer.

Customers cannot safely assume that any card collection has been set just because they've paid by Google Pay.
 
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