Todmorden Curve

[jon91]

Thanks for bringing us vaguely back on-topic!

I do wonder if it would be possible to create such a media outcry about the lack of stock for the new East Lancashire service that the DfT is forced to subsidise the hiring of a couple of LHCS sets to (directly or otherwise) allow at least some services to run...

If the new service terminates at Manchester Vic then using LCHS for it would be a non-starter. I can't see a run-around at Victoria being too popular...

 

[Whistler40145]

Why would using LHCS be a non-starter?

It could have top 'n' tail locos or use LHCS with a DVT in push-pull mode.

Does anyone know if a spare set of LHCS with a DVT is available which could be used with a Diesel?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why would using LHCS be a non-starter?

It could have top 'n' tail locos or use LHCS with a DVT in push-pull mode.

Does anyone know if a spare set of LHCS with a DVT is available which could be used with a Diesel?

Tut tut..Northern Rail have spent the best part of 10 years extolling the wonderment of rail travel that can only be experienced in one of "Newton Heath's finest".

LHCS with "top and tail" locomotives....hock:.....the native population will flee with fear from the approach of such a new-fangled apparition...

 

[jon91]

Why would using LHCS be a non-starter?

It could have top 'n' tail locos or use LHCS with a DVT in push-pull mode.

Does anyone know if a spare set of LHCS with a DVT is available which could be used with a Diesel?

You really think that the DfT will bother with going to the expense of hiring out a DVT-equipped rake solely for the service?

I won't even start on platform lengths...

LHCS with "top and tail" locomotives....hock:.....the native population will flee with fear from the approach of such a new-fangled apparition...

I'll refer you to EMT's recent experience of using a top and tail LHCS formation in lieu of a DMU.

 

[Whistler40145]

I am presuming 'Newton Heath's finest' would be Class 142 Pacers!

 

[tom1649]

Perhaps they're starting to regret selling the 141s to Iran...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'll refer you to EMT's recent experience of using a top and tail LHCS formation in lieu of a DMU.

EMT...Can I remind you that Northern Rail is the TOC that we are referring to here who specialise in certain modes of traction that may possibly resemble an early drawing board example thirty years in advance of what now runs as light rail on the Nottingham Express Transit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am presuming 'Newton Heath's finest' would be Class 142 Pacers!

How right you are..

 

[jon91]

EMT...Can I remind you that Northern Rail is the TOC that we are referring to here who specialise in certain modes of traction that may possibly resemble an early drawing board example thirty years in advance of what now runs as light rail on the Nottingham Express Transit.

Poor trams, being associated with THOSE things...

Can imagine going around the Todmorden curve on a Pacer is going to be a world of pain and hearing damage.

 

[Whistler40145]

Does anyone think Network Rail will impose a ban for Pacers on the Todmorden Curve?

 

[tbtc]

Does anyone think Network Rail will impose a ban for Pacers on the Todmorden Curve?

Doubt it - they run on routes with tightish curves regularly - there's nothing "special" about this short new section of track AFAICS, so I expect it to get the usual mix of "west side" DMUs that Northern throws at routes.

 

[Signal Head]

EMT...Can I remind you that Northern Rail is the TOC that we are referring to here who specialise in certain modes of traction that may possibly resemble an early drawing board example thirty years in advance of what now runs as light rail on the Nottingham Express Transit.

I suspect no drawing board involved, just the back of a particularly dog-eared fag packet.

 

[edwin_m]

I gather there is also to be a stop at Rose Grove. What is the potential for decent connections to/from the Colne line for journeys to Man Vic via Tod?

Difficult. Because of single line constraints the trains to/from Colne need to pass each other near Rose Grove. Thefore for a good connection in both directions the Curve trains would have to run closely ahead of the Colne train westbound and closely behind it eastbound, giving a very uneven service interval Burnley-Blackburn. I'm not sure what timetable is currently planned so can't say whether it offers either good spacing of trains or connections to/from Colne.

 

[mirodo]

The combined passenger usage total for the stations on the Colne branch east of Rose Grove is similar to that of Stourbridge town.

Just stick a PPM on there on a shuttle if you ask me!

 

[Whistler40145]

If you convert the Colne branch to PPM, where would you terminate the service from Blackpool South?

 

[John S2]

If you convert the Colne branch to PPM, where would you terminate the service from Blackpool South?

Burnley Manchester Road.

 

[The Planner]

You can't turn back there though can you? I thought some convoluted pilot working arangement is in place for the Holme Tunnel blockade?

 

[Whistler40145]

As a matter of interest, do passengers from stations on the South Fylde line travel to East Lancashire?

 

[mirodo]

What about somewhere further along in W Yorks - Hebden Bridge or Halifax? Would give pax from East Lancs an extra service per hour to Yorkshire.

 

[Eagle]

Why are we discussing this? Obviously a PPM is completely inadequate for the Colne branch. The only reason it works on the Stourbridge branch is that it runs every ten minutes, obviously something you can't do with the Colne branch.

 

[Viscount702]

If you convert the Colne branch to PPM, where would you terminate the service from Blackpool South?

Take it to Victoria instead!!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If the new service terminates at Manchester Vic then using LCHS for it would be a non-starter. I can't see a run-around at Victoria being too popular...

You will note the parentheses in my post: There are plenty of services run by Northern that might be better suited for the use of LHCS- Leeds-Carlisle could free up a couple of 158s for the Manchester-Bolton-Blackburn runs, for example. Likewise York-Blackpool.

 

[mirodo]

Why are we discussing this? Obviously a PPM is completely inadequate for the Colne branch. The only reason it works on the Stourbridge branch is that it runs every ten minutes, obviously something you can't do with the Colne branch.

OK, so my suggestion of a PPM was slightly tongue-in-cheek. But wouldn't a shuttle service run by regular rolling stock allow for an the existing Blackpool - Colne service to run to BYM (and through to West Yorks/MCV) instead?

 

[edwin_m]

Because the Colne-Blackpools pass each other very close to Rose Grove, diverting them to terminate at Manchester Road would need the train to lay over there for about 50 minutes, which as well as being inefficient would need a turnback siding at Manchester Road to allow other trains to pass in the meantime. The shuttle would also need a turnback siding at Rose Grove because the Colne trains occupy both platforms simultaneously. These constraints are caused by the long single line at the Blackpool end, and might be eased somewhat if a loop was provided on that section or the service was split at Preston.

 

[Darren R]

Doubt it - they run on routes with tightish curves regularly - there's nothing "special" about this short new section of track AFAICS, so I expect it to get the usual mix of "west side" DMUs that Northern throws at routes.

The potential problem with running 142s via the new chord is not the tightness of the curve itself so much as the steep gradients either side of Copy Pit Summit. I think a Pacer would struggle a bit at the best of times.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With tomorrow's line closing of the Copy Pit line to allow for the facilitation of the Holme Tunnel works until the end of next March, travel from the East Lancashire stations into West Yorkshire will be rather more lengthy for those regular passengers who use the Blackpool North to York service and vice-versa. Are any of the usual contributors to this particular thread affected by these tunnel works on that route ?

 

[natureboy]

Proof that the junction on the Manchester line is in!

My word! Things are certainly looking up! I can't wait to see how sell patronised the new service will be!

 

[ianhr]

The shuttle would also need a turnback siding at Rose Grove because the Colne trains occupy both platforms simultaneously. These constraints are caused by the long single line at the Blackpool end, and might be eased somewhat if a loop was provided on that section or the service was split at Preston.

There is the track leading to the Padiham branch, presumably OOU, which could be re-commissioned for a turn back for a Colne branch shuttle. The Man Vic-Burnley-Blackburn trains could be extended to Balckpool South.
The problem is that the Colne branch has been rather too enthusiastically rationalised. It is no more than a long siding and this imposes the constraints. Rather than the SELRAP fantasy it might be more realistic to campaign for more modest funding to restore some capacity in the form of a passing loop so that the frequency can be increased to 2 tph. A 2 tph shuttle connecting at Rose Grove into/out of BOTH the West Yorks-Blackpool and the Man Vic-East Lancs trains would be a huge improvement on existing provision. Also there are quite a few short distance local trips within E.Lancs which would benefit from increased frequency. Can anyone design a timetable and rolling stock diagram for this?! (challenge!)

 

[mirodo]

With tomorrow's line closing of the Copy Pit line to allow for the facilitation of the Holme Tunnel works until the end of next March, travel from the East Lancashire stations into West Yorkshire will be rather more lengthy for those regular passengers who use the Blackpool North to York service and vice-versa. Are any of the usual contributors to this particular thread affected by these tunnel works on that route ?

I'm not a frequent user by any means, but I will be travelling the Copy Pit line in a couple of hours (on my way to see family in Burnley, coming from London). I don't fancy the bustitution for the trip back on Monday, so I'll be going back via Preston and using the WCML for my next visit at Christmas. I much prefer the ECML, but even a Pendo is better than a bus!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

There is the track leading to the Padiham branch, presumably OOU, which could be re-commissioned for a turn back for a Colne branch shuttle. The Man Vic-Burnley-Blackburn trains could be extended to Blackpool South.

The track only runs for approximatley 50 - 75 yards at the most then finishes at some sort of blockade, from which its trackbed only all the way to Padiham. Going by GSV which were taken in '09 reveals http://goo.gl/maps/5OALA.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The track only runs for approximatley 50 - 75 yards at the most then finishes at some sort of blockade, from which its trackbed only all the way to Padiham. Going by GSV which were taken in '09 reveals http://goo.gl/maps/5OALA.

I remember reading quite a few years ago that Lancashire County Council were to convert the trackbed into a footpath/cycle way/bridleway that the name of "The Padiham Greenway" was suggested as a pathway name.