Todmorden Curve

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wonder what the loading was like on the X43 Lancashire Witch bus service that ran from Burnley in the same time period?

I'm not fussed about the bus, not being a local.
A stopping Pacer is a start, but hardly attractive.
At least the scenery was great today, once the rain had cleared.

 

[Andyh82]

Transdev Burnley & Pendle were giving away free coffees in branded thermal mugs and free copies of the Lancashire Telegraph to Witch Way X43 passengers this morning.

The fact the front page headline on the newspaper was the launch of new rail service was a bit of an own goal though!

 

[lejog]

The curve was taken out before the area was re-signalled with control from Preston in the early 70s (although the Stansfield Hall end was retained as a banking siding). Modifying old signalling tends to be very expensive due to the risk of damaging it and the various safety procedures to be followed.

Also I am told, there was also the update of the signalling south of Todmorden to allow more than 3tph, certainly it was only possible to run 3tph here during the Stalybridge blockade a couple of years ago, with the Brighouse services terminating at Rochdale and Hebden Bridge. The signalling was replaced last year, although the work overran for a few days, allowing a fourth tph to run through to Todmorden (and a fifth is due in 2019).

IIRC, Network Rail said a few years ago that the business case was only viable if the costs of upgrades between Rochdale and Todmorden and the cost of trains to run the service (!!!) came from a different budget.

Whether all or part of this cost was included in the Todmorden Curve budget or comes from Northern Hub and CP5 budgets I don't know.

 

[158756]

Whilst it's good to see the curve finally open, it now has to prove it was worth spending £8m+ on.

I haven't tried it out yet, but the reaction at work has been unanimously negative: Too slow and too expensive.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was the originally-floated Northern Rail idea to keep timings down to the minimum was not even to call at certain stations such as Littleborough, yet is it not the case that the metropolis that goes by the name of Smithy Bridge was served on the first day of service....:roll:

 

[John S2]

Whilst it's good to see the curve finally open, it now has to prove it was worth spending £8m+ on.

I haven't tried it out yet, but the reaction at work has been unanimously negative: Too slow and too expensive.

I know the area well and I expect loadings to be disappointing. The view from the upper deck of the X43 bus is far superior to the experience of 'NH's finest', but the journey times by rail will improve when some stops are removed in future timetable changes.
A major problem in my opinion, and I know the area well, is the fares. Some of the prices are ridiculous. A day return fare Burnley to Todmorden of £9.10 is way too high for the local market. It needs to be 50% of that as a maximum.

 

[Sox]

I know the area well and I expect loadings to be disappointing. The view from the upper deck of the X43 bus is far superior to the experience of 'NH's finest', but the journey times by rail will improve when some stops are removed in future timetable changes.
A major problem in my opinion, and I know the area well, is the fares. Some of the prices are ridiculous. A day return fare Burnley to Todmorden of £9.10 is way too high for the local market. It needs to be 50% of that as a maximum.

I know, on this thread, that the X43 gets exalted as the transport medium of the gods but a quick google shows that this does not stack up (OAP free bus-pass holders excepted).

At worker's time, the X43 costs just 10p less for a daily return. The morning commute (BYM to MCR) takes a torturous hour and a half (compared with 51-56 minutes by train).

You could go by car but, as well as an awful commute, you are going to get stung for £5-10 daily parking charges.

 

[chrissawer]

At worker's time, the X43 costs just 10p less for a daily return. The morning commute (BYM to MCR) takes a torturous hour and a half (compared with 51-56 minutes by train).

I think the Burnley to Manchester fares are reasonable for a 30+ mile journey. It's the Burnley to Todmorden fares which are ridiculous for 9 miles and will not tempt anyone off the bus or out of their car.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think the Burnley to Manchester fares are reasonable for a 30+ mile journey. It's the Burnley to Todmorden fares which are ridiculous for 9 miles and will not tempt anyone off the bus or out of their car.

Indeed, why on earth was not some research carried out on comparative bus fares between Burnley and Todmorden by Northern Rail prior to the introduction of this new service?

As a result of how matters have progressed over the last 12 months, even Northern Rail cannot have the temerity to claim that "they did not have enough available time" in order that such research could have been carried out..

 

[Deerfold]

I know, on this thread, that the X43 gets exalted as the transport medium of the gods but a quick google shows that this does not stack up (OAP free bus-pass holders excepted).

At worker's time, the X43 costs just 10p less for a daily return. The morning commute (BYM to MCR) takes a torturous hour and a half (compared with 51-56 minutes by train).

You could go by car but, as well as an awful commute, you are going to get stung for £5-10 daily parking charges.

Although of course regular workers will get a season ticket.

Northern via Todmorden is £1760 for the year.
The Witch Way is £860 for the year.

If you don't live in Burnley itself but get a Transdev service in that's included in the Witch Way price.

 

[CdBrux]

Perhaps we are beginning to see why this was apparently not a NR or Northern priority

 

[Sox]

Although of course regular workers will get a season ticket.

Northern via Todmorden is £1760 for the year.
The Witch Way is £860 for the year.

If you don't live in Burnley itself but get a Transdev service in that's included in the Witch Way price.

Assuming the hard pressed workers can afford to stump up £860 up front
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, why on earth was not some research carried out on comparative bus fares between Burnley and Todmorden by Northern Rail prior to the introduction of this new service?

Are there vast armies of commuters plying their trade between these towns?

Last time I went to Todmorden it was shut.

 

[Flying Claret]

Indeed, why on earth was not some research carried out on comparative bus fares between Burnley and Todmorden by Northern Rail prior to the introduction of this new service?

Probably because this has never been the main premise of the business case. In reality it is irrelevant. Thr burnley- mcr market is all that matters.

 

[bluenoxid]

Exactly. Just a shame about the recent performance of the 1st XI at Turf Moor kick about club and the guaranteed heavy loadings that the matches would bring.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Assuming the hard pressed workers can afford to stump up £860 up front
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are there vast armies of commuters plying their trade between these towns?
.

I suppose there are normal stopping bus services that cater for Burnley to Todmorden local passengers:-

589 Burnley - Todmorden (continues to Rochdale)
592 Burnley - Todmorden (continues to Halifax)

Just two services that I thought about...there may be more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Last time I went to Todmorden it was shut.

You are so unkind...:roll:

 

[Mugby]

Where does the new train service terminate, is it Burnley or Accrington?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Where does the new train service terminate, is it Burnley or Accrington?

Neither, it terminates at Blackburn except on Sundays when it reverses there and runs to Clitheroe.

 

[Starmill]

Did it Tuesday night, 2028 from Accrington to Todmorden, hideous filthy ex-LM 150 horrid seats full of litter, seat covers pieces of trim falling off ingrained dirt in the floor - typical Northern. 5 people got on at Accrington myself included - nobody already on from Blackburn. 1 got off at Rose Grove, 1 got on at Manchester Road. I got off at Todmorden, where a few people were waiting to go to Manchester. The signs at Burnley saying 'Just 55 minutes to Manchester!' make you think 'eh? Just?'.

£8million could have build a small new station somewhere.

 

[Darren R]

The service I caught today was a nice comfy 156! I chatted with the guard and asked how loadings had been this week. He told me that he'd been working the service all week, and said that loadings were fairly light - but he also added that they had all been later, off-peak services.

 

[Starmill]

Was the originally-floated Northern Rail idea to keep timings down to the minimum was not even to call at certain stations such as Littleborough, yet is it not the case that the metropolis that goes by the name of Smithy Bridge was served on the first day of service....:roll:

Why on earth did you expect it to stop calling there? This service started life as the Man Vic - Rochdale service. The point of that was that it served Moston, Mills Hill and Castleton. If it is removed, those stations see a cut in service. Then the second Bradford service was speeded up, running semi-fast Manchester - Rochdale - Todmorden and the stops at Smithy Bridge, Littleborough and at peak times Walsden transferring to the newly extended service Manchester Vic - Todmorden. Now what you are saying, by complaining that the Todmorden curve service stops at Littleborough, Smithy Bridge, Castleton and Mills Hill is either that you want to reduce the service at those stations down to hourly, or that you want one of the two Bradford semi-fasts to start stopping there again - which would be somewhat counter-productive don't you think given the emphasis on the Calder Valley timetable these past few years has been to speed up Manchester - Bradford trains!

Now what do you think is more important for the fast paths between Man Vic and Todmorden (since there plainly can't be one for all 3 of these trains an hour due to the track capacity and the need to actually serve the intermediate stations) - the Bradford trains which are already very busy and important for stations like Hebden and Halifax which are growing somewhat more than Burnley, or the new trains going round the curve that have hardly anyone on them?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, why on earth was not some research carried out on comparative bus fares between Burnley and Todmorden by Northern Rail prior to the introduction of this new service?

As a result of how matters have progressed over the last 12 months, even Northern Rail cannot have the temerity to claim that "they did not have enough available time" in order that such research could have been carried out..

It's a simple case of them having failed to adjust the fares database - Burnley to Todmorden used to be Burnley - Hebden and then some, because that was the only way to do it. It should now be slighty less than the Hebden fare, but they haven't cottoned on. Anyone reading should try the following to get them to sort this out:

Write to their customer relations department explaining that this is the problem and that someone from pricing needs to look into it.

If you get fobbed off, write to your new MP who's just been sworn in, and ask if they can send someone at Northern a letter on House of Commons notepaper requesting that they take a look at the situation.

Until then, get a Burnley to Hebden ticket if you want to go to Todmorden. It's still £7.80 so too much but better than £9.10. I reckon it would be about £6.50 if they actually thought about it - but as it crosses a PTE border expect it to be disproportionately expensive - see the £6.30 return from Marsden to Greenfield.

 

[edwin_m]

The Manchester-Todmorden line is getting some investment with elimination of the long signalling blocks, an extra platform at Rochdale (I think this is going ahead) and the Ordsall Curve allowing through journeys to Piccadilly and the Airport. All these would probably make it possible to run an extra hourly stopper from Manchester to Rochdale (or beyond in both directions) so the Burnley train could have fewer stops. However whether this is worth doing will depend on how well used the new service is. Obviously it would also require a couple of extra DMUs.

Isn't getting rid of the fare differentials at PTE boundaries supposed to be a priority for the new franchise and Rail North?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Manchester-Todmorden line is getting some investment with elimination of the long signalling blocks, an extra platform at Rochdale (I think this is going ahead) .

What is the latest news on a proposed Manchester-facing bay at Rochdale station to handle services that will carry on from Manchester Victoria with the need for terminating there, similar to what now can occur at Stalybridge station....or is this the EXTRA platform to which you allude above?

 

[po8crg]

The Manchester-Todmorden line is getting some investment with elimination of the long signalling blocks, an extra platform at Rochdale (I think this is going ahead) and the Ordsall Curve allowing through journeys to Piccadilly and the Airport. All these would probably make it possible to run an extra hourly stopper from Manchester to Rochdale (or beyond in both directions) so the Burnley train could have fewer stops.

I think it has been suggested that once the electrifications are completed, then the remaining diesel services that currently terminate at Victoria from the west - ie trains from Southport and Kirkby via Wigan Wallgate - would be extended to run through to Rochdale as stoppers. Because Victoria has no west-facing bay platforms, trains terminating from the west block through-platforms, and the increase in through services caused by Ordsall Chord means a needs to avoid blocking the through platforms.

Platforms one and two at Victoria are east-facing bay platforms, so terminating trains coming through Rochdale from the east isn't a problem, and I'd expect trains that aren't extended to the Ordsall Chord to continue to terminate in those bays.

The two hourly services through Wigan Wallgate are both stoppers on the Atherton Line, so you'd expect them to stop at Moston, Mills Hill and Castleton on the way to Rochdale as well. That would allow both Calder Valley and Todmorden Curve services to run non-stop from Rochdale to Manchester providing there is signalling/track capacity to do so. I suppose if there isn't, then the Atherton Line services get joined up as through services, and you get Kirkby-Blackburn and Southport-Leeds, both as all-shacks stoppers. Given how easily those would get disrupted, I'm sure everyone would prefer to run the extra services between Manchester and Rochdale - it's not like there will be a DMU shortage once the electrification allows these timetable changes.

Western approaches to Victoria on electric trains (from Chat Moss or Bolton) will be moved to terminate at Stalybridge if they would otherwise have terminated at Victoria - obviously, some of these are through-trains anyway (e.g. the fast Liverpool-Newcastle)

What is the latest news on a proposed Manchester-facing bay at Rochdale station to handle services that will carry on from Manchester Victoria with the need for terminating there, similar to what now can occur at Stalybridge station....or is this the EXTRA platform to which you allude above?

I think that's required once Ordsall Chord is complete so that the new through service from Bradford to Manchester Airport can get through Victoria station without a through-platform being blocked by a terminating service. My understanding is that Victoria-Stalybridge will also have to be electrified so that the LIV-MCV stopper can be extended there.

 

[snowball]

The big timetable change, following completion of electrification (except TP) and the Chord, is now scheduled for December 2017, so I suppose the bay platform at Rochdale has to be ready by then.

 

[gnolife]

The two hourly services through Wigan Wallgate are both stoppers on the Atherton Line, so you'd expect them to stop at Moston, Mills Hill and Castleton on the way to Rochdale as well. That would allow both Calder Valley and Todmorden Curve services to run non-stop from Rochdale to Manchester providing there is signalling/track capacity to do so. I suppose if there isn't, then the Atherton Line services get joined up as through services, and you get Kirkby-Blackburn and Southport-Leeds, both as all-shacks stoppers. Given how easily those would get disrupted, I'm sure everyone would prefer to run the extra services between Manchester and Rochdale - it's not like there will be a DMU shortage once the electrification allows these timetable changes.

To be picky, the Southport - Manchester Vic does not call at Hag Fold or Moorside on the Atherton line, and every two hours also does not stop at Bescar Lane, New Lane or Hoscar.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think it has been suggested that once the electrifications are completed, then the remaining diesel services that currently terminate at Victoria from the west - ie trains from Southport and Kirkby via Wigan Wallgate - would be extended to run through to Rochdale as stoppers.

There's also the current Clitheroe service, and a second planned service via Darwen after the line upgrade.
This could be the Burnley service running in a circle, of course.
And the new Chester-Warrington-Victoria service, intended to be a through service via the Calder Valley.

 

[lejog]

Was the originally-floated Northern Rail idea to keep timings down to the minimum was not even to call at certain stations such as Littleborough, yet is it not the case that the metropolis that goes by the name of Smithy Bridge was served on the first day of service....:roll:

No it wasn't Northern's idea - it was the idea of the East Lancs councils, after their consultants study showed a BCR of just over 1 for a 47 minute journey, but 2.2 for a 38min journey (so presumably <<1 for the current 55min journey).

However other parties were far more interested in the Northern Hub requirement of speeding up Bradford to Manchester journey times, hence both Bradford services running fast from Todmorden, not one Bradford and one Burnley.

You only have to look at the passenger figures to see where Northern see their maximum revenue.

If anyone's interested, I've googled Colin Buchanan's report here (pdf) A classic example of employing one set of consultants, not liking the results, so hiring a second set to come up with a better answer!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose there are normal stopping bus services that cater for Burnley to Todmorden local passengers:-

589 Burnley - Todmorden (continues to Rochdale)
592 Burnley - Todmorden (continues to Halifax)

Just two services that I thought about...there may be more.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Your favourite bus company Transdev stopped their Burnley to Todmorden service last year so now there are only the two First services you mention. Transdev's service was half hourly until a few years ago, then cut to hourly then cut completely. Transdev's fares were apparently much higher than First's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Manchester-Todmorden line is getting some investment with elimination of the long signalling blocks, an extra platform at Rochdale (I think this is going ahead) and the Ordsall Curve allowing through journeys to Piccadilly and the Airport. All these would probably make it possible to run an extra hourly stopper from Manchester to Rochdale (or beyond in both directions) so the Burnley train could have fewer stops. However whether this is worth doing will depend on how well used the new service is. Obviously it would also require a couple of extra DMUs.

A third Manchester to Bradford train is indeed specified for 2019 in the Northern franchise bid document, although the document gave no indication of stopping patterns.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it has been suggested that once the electrifications are completed, then the remaining diesel services that currently terminate at Victoria from the west - ie trains from Southport and Kirkby via Wigan Wallgate - would be extended to run through to Rochdale as stoppers.

There's also the current Clitheroe service, and a second planned service via Darwen after the line upgrade.
This could be the Burnley service running in a circle, of course.
And the new Chester-Warrington-Victoria service, intended to be a through service via the Calder Valley.

Which is interesting since the Franchise spec shows a single tph terminating at Rochdale, although I suppose this is a minimum figure. But with 5 through tph due from 2019 on the Calder Valley line (and the line being used "extensively" for diversions during TPE electrification), will there be capacity to send all these diesels to Rochdale?

 

[edwin_m]

Platforms one and two at Victoria are east-facing bay platforms, so terminating trains coming through Rochdale from the east isn't a problem, and I'd expect trains that aren't extended to the Ordsall Chord to continue to terminate in those bays.

However Calder Valley trains using the bays have to cross somewhere between Miles Platting and Victoria east throat over the two tracks that will soon be the main Transpennine route. Through Calder Valley trains to the Airport will also have to make a similar crossing move, so there will be quite a lot of flat junction conflicts in the area. To reduce extra conflict any extra trains should continue via Salford Crescent to somewhere beyond if possible.

 

[Deerfold]

Assuming the hard pressed workers can afford to stump up £860 up front

I was trying to keep it simple by only mentioning the annual fares.

OK - they could try for a weekly season:

£44 by train
£33 by bus (including any Burnley and Pendle or Lancashire United connecting bus - allowing trips to Skipton on the weekend if you fancy)

That's a 25% difference. If someone's struggling to buy an annual ticket that's likely to be significant.

Your favourite bus company Transdev stopped their Burnley to Todmorden service last year so now there are only the two First services you mention. Transdev's service was half hourly until a few years ago, then cut to hourly then cut completely. Transdev's fares were apparently much higher than First's.

I don't think Transdev was ever that bothered about this service. They inherited it when they bought Northern Blue (a bus company, not a porn company, despite the name). It had had large gaps in the peak service even from the start and no Saturday service so it wasn't really clear who they were aiming it at.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No it wasn't Northern's idea - it was the idea of the East Lancs councils, after their consultants study showed a BCR of just over 1 for a 47 minute journey, but 2.2 for a 38min journey (so presumably <<1 for the current 55min journey).

My thanks for clarifying the originator of that particular matter from so long ago now, as memory can play you false.