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Tondu

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Gwenllian2001

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I noticed yesterday that packs of new steel sleepers have been placed alongside the loop at Tondu and new rail lengths of rail dropped in the four foot.

If this is part of the plan to introduce thirty minute interval services, it's not going to work without a considerable speeding up of the existing service between Maesteg and Tondu.
 
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tiptoptaff

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I assume it's for the upgrade of the loop at Tondu, it's my understanding that Tondu will be the passing point for the half-hourly services on the Maesteg branch
 

Gwenllian2001

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I assume it's for the upgrade of the loop at Tondu, it's my understanding that Tondu will be the passing point for the half-hourly services on the Maesteg branch

Present running times dictate that a minimum of 28 minutes will be needed for a train to travel from Tondu to Maesteg and back to the loop. That twenty eight minutes, incidentally, is pretty ambitious because it includes the time for changing ends at Maesteg and does not allow for even the slightest delay; loading and unloading wheelchairs etc. On the other hand, the running time between Bridgend and Tondu is only 8 minutes.

I cannot see how passing trains at Tondu will work. Shortly after the line re-opened to passenger traffic, a study was made to try and ascertain whether it was possible to run additional Saturday services by passing trains at the Tondu loop. It was quickly realised that such a scheme would not be possible. Relief trains were run but only as far as Tondu.

There is plenty of room for a new loop on the site of the sidings which served the Llynfi power station. This site is in an ideal position to facilitate even interval working. Tondu is definitely not.
 

TheWalrus

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Why do they want half-hourly services to Maesteg?
 
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Gwenllian2001

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Why do they want half-hourly services to Measteg?

If I were being flippant, I would ask where MEAsteg is. However, this has been part of a plan for quite some time. Hourly local services, west of Cardiff are simply not good enough. We are not talking of a rural area but commuter country.
 

tiptoptaff

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Present running times dictate that a minimum of 28 minutes will be needed for a train to travel from Tondu to Maesteg and back to the loop. That twenty eight minutes, incidentally, is pretty ambitious because it includes the time for changing ends at Maesteg and does not allow for even the slightest delay; loading and unloading wheelchairs etc. On the other hand, the running time between Bridgend and Tondu is only 8 minutes.

I cannot see how passing trains at Tondu will work. Shortly after the line re-opened to passenger traffic, a study was made to try and ascertain whether it was possible to run additional Saturday services by passing trains at the Tondu loop. It was quickly realised that such a scheme would not be possible. Relief trains were run but only as far as Tondu.

There is plenty of room for a new loop on the site of the sidings which served the Llynfi power station. This site is in an ideal position to facilitate even interval working. Tondu is definitely not.

Don't shoot the messenger! That' just where I've heard the plan to loop will be, as the loop is alread in situ. With it taking 28 minutes, it times nicely for a service half an hour behind it. What you must remember is that although 28 minutes is disproportionate for looping on the branch itself, it isn't for the entire journey between Cardiff and Maesteg
 

quarella

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Perhaps it is testing the water with demand as far as Tondu for now, and if it is worthwhile extend to Maesteg. The people from Pontyclun will appreciate an increased service they may occasionally get a seat on. :D
 

Gwenllian2001

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Don't shoot the messenger! That' just where I've heard the plan to loop will be, as the loop is alread in situ. With it taking 28 minutes, it times nicely for a service half an hour behind it. What you must remember is that although 28 minutes is disproportionate for looping on the branch itself, it isn't for the entire journey between Cardiff and Maesteg

I'm not in the business of shooting the messenger and you make a valid point. I am suggesting that it's going to be awfully difficult to devise a service that fits around everything else plying the SWML between Cardiff and Bridgend and maintain an even interval service. I'm not saying that it cannot be done but I do not believe that Tondu is the answer under the present setup.

Other things could be done and some time could be saved by reinstating another platform at Tondu and extending the loop to serve it. Electrification is going to make a difference and point to point timings are likely to become tighter, particularly between Cardiff and Bridgend. In any case, it's going to be interesting.
 

tiptoptaff

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Perhaps it is testing the water with demand as far as Tondu for now, and if it is worthwhile extend to Maesteg. The people from Pontyclun will appreciate an increased service they may occasionally get a seat on. :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry, getting a seat on a train to/from PYC is the funniest thing I've ever heard
 

Gwenllian2001

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Perhaps it is testing the water with demand as far as Tondu for now, and if it is worthwhile extend to Maesteg. The people from Pontyclun will appreciate an increased service they may occasionally get a seat on. :D

Yes, I'm aware of the problems at Pontyclun but you don't need to relay the Tondu loop for that. It is possible to use it now, for empty stock movements and it has been used for that purpose. On the other hand it's just as well to run up to Maesteg and back instead of waiting for a suitable path through Bridgend, which was the reason for running to Maesteg in the first place.
 

tiptoptaff

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I'm not in the business of shooting the messenger and you make a valid point. I am suggesting that it's going to be awfully difficult to devise a service that fits around everything else plying the SWML between Cardiff and Bridgend and maintain an even interval service. I'm not saying that it cannot be done but I do not believe that Tondu is the answer under the present setup.

Other things could be done and some time could be saved by reinstating another platform at Tondu and extending the loop to serve it. Electrification is going to make a difference and point to point timings are likely to become tighter, particularly between Cardiff and Bridgend. In any case, it's going to be interesting.


As far as I was aware, the reinstatement of the Tondu loop would include a second platform. I thought that went without saying
 

TheWalrus

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Why do they want half-hourly services to Maesteg?

If I were being flippant, I would ask where MEAsteg is. However, this has been part of a plan for quite some time. Hourly local services, west of Cardiff are simply not good enough. We are not talking of a rural area but commuter country.
I can understand during peaks but not during the day. Or is that the plan?
 

Gareth Marston

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Is it the IEP diversionary route turnback?

That's definitely in NR's CP5 business plan which Maesteg loops is not.

Let me repeat this once more the Welsh Government has committed its transport infrastructure plans & budget for the current Assembly period to June 2015. So any additional schemes beyond will have to wait for the next Assembly Government to be elected. Clearly not what folk want to hear and remember the £50 million to buy Cardiff airport has to come from somewhere as well.
 

The Planner

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Long time since I had anything to do with this one, but I thought the service plan was hourly Cardiff - Maesteg and the infill being Bridgend only to the bay platform?. As previously said, if the Tondu - Maesteg run is 27-28 mins then it will never get approved, there no room at all for robustness in the timetable.
 

anthony263

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Bridgend - Maesteg can be done in 22 minutes but a problem is the trains have to stop to collect the token for the section between Tondu and Maesteg as well as slow to a crawl because of a couple of footcrossing etc.

If something can be done to raise the linspeed then that might help timekeeping.

I last read the crossing point was to be near the lynfi power station north of Tondu with the current lynfi goods loop at Tondu being upgraded to be used as a reversing loop for IEP's if they are diverted via the Tondu - Margam line.

There has been a good number of housing developments around the Bridgend area and many more are being built near Bettws etc which I think will help to increase demand for rail services
 

Gwenllian2001

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Long time since I had anything to do with this one, but I thought the service plan was hourly Cardiff - Maesteg and the infill being Bridgend only to the bay platform?. As previously said, if the Tondu - Maesteg run is 27-28 mins then it will never get approved, there no room at all for robustness in the timetable.

The problem with using the bay at Bridgend is that it is only long enough to hold a two car train and electrification will, I understand, bring three car trains as the standard minimum formation. As things stand, the bay would be difficult to lengthen although, I concede, that nothing is impossible given a will. It would, though, seem to be a waste of resources to lock a set into the branch when it could be picking up useful business elsewhere, at Pencoed; Llanharan and Pontyclun. It is also likely that an additional station at Brackla will be built, some time in the not too distant future, and it will need something better than an hourly service to attract new business. People from Brackla do not travel into Bridgend to catch a train to Cardiff so we are looking at a completely new catchment. There is also continuing pressure for a new station at St Fagans. Although electrification is not the panacea that some people think it might be, the superior acceleration would make the additional stops a better proposition than at present.

Since I started this thread, it has been mentioned that the work at Tondu might have more to do with a turnback for trains diverted via Margam. That would seem to make more sense.

I have already mentioned that some thought was given to running a half hourly service, on Saturdays, when the branch re-opened to passengers. John Davies was keen to try it but wiser councils prevailed. It was simply too risky and the knock on consequences of even the slightest of delays would have caused chaos to other services using the SWML. As it was, we had enough trouble with the Freight Sector which was dead against any service to Maesteg and did its best to strangle it at birth.

The outcome was that Saturday trains were strengthened from 143s to 150/2s. The platforms on the branch weren't long enough for anything else and some reliefs were run, in spare paths, from Cardiff to Tondu. The problem with that solution was that Maesteg passengers were left hanging about in the rain at Tondu with their increasingly fractious children; their bags from M&S and Debenhams and loudly voiced vows to never again travel by train. The general public just could not understand why the train that had dumped them there was just sitting idly for minutes on end instead of taking them home. A great deal of goodwill was lost in those early days.

Tondu Loop is in the wrong place and definitely not the answer to half hourly services and I dread the outcome if that path is chosen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bridgend - Maesteg can be done in 22 minutes but a problem is the trains have to stop to collect the token for the section between Tondu and Maesteg as well as slow to a crawl because of a couple of footcrossing etc.

If something can be done to raise the linspeed then that might help timekeeping.

I last read the crossing point was to be near the lynfi power station north of Tondu with the current lynfi goods loop at Tondu being upgraded to be used as a reversing loop for IEP's if they are diverted via the Tondu - Margam line.

There has been a good number of housing developments around the Bridgend area and many more are being built near Bettws etc which I think will help to increase demand for rail services

The present layout at Tondu is a legacy of the shoestring budget that enabled the service to get up and running and is far from ideal. The present loop was contrived to hold coal trains, clear of the passenger service, which lasted for a few years during the time that stocks were cleared from the Washery at St John's Colliery.

It requires a slow approach to Tondu from the Maesteg direction first because of the very poorly sited Tondu Outer Home* and then to come to a dead stand, outside the station to surrender the token, before restarting to enter the platform a few yards away. All of this eats into time as well as a couple of the foot crossings which are short cuts to a housing estate. The crossings didn't really matter when the line was freight only and I don't suppose that much thought was given to the possibility that passenger trains would return to the branch when the houses were built.

Despite the problems, traffic on the branch continues to grow in, what has now become, part of the Cardiff 'Travel To Work Area'. The Valleys, in general, have become attractive places to live with their lower property values and more 'laid back' lifestyle than the city.

My understanding also was that a new loop was to be installed on the site of the Llynfi Power Station sidings which would be just about the ideal site for such a facility. Time will tell.

* I think that it is the Outer Home. Signalling aficionados will, no doubt, correct me if I'm mistaken. This signal is very difficult to sight because of lineside tree growth and is almost impossible to sight in full leaf season until the train is almost on top of it.
 

Requeststop

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I did the Maesteg Branch as part of my South Wales bash at the end of February. Tondu was particually interesting with the cross-over of the Margam Line across the Maesteg Branch to Blaengawr. Some lovely semaphores just visible through the winter vegetation looking eastwards afterTundu Junction, and a decent looking signalbox at the loop to the north of an interesting "V" shaped station at Tondu. The loop is not at the station , but as I say to the North of the station, so using the loop as it is in situ, I dare say is impracticable for use of a half hourly service from Bridgend.

Can I also comment as an aside, that I though the stations on the Maesteg line were a little run down, basic and in need of improvement of facilities and a good tidy up.
 
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Gwenllian2001

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Can I also comment as an aside, that I though the stations on the Maesteg line were a little run down, basic and in need of improvement of facilities and a good tidy up.

The stations are very basic having been built very cheaply. There is, in all fairness, very little to tidy up. The shelters are worst feature and are overdue for replacement with the type used on the Vale of Glamorgan line. This was supposed to have been done last year but there has been no sign that the work is imminent.
 

anthony263

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The stations are very basic having been built very cheaply. There is, in all fairness, very little to tidy up. The shelters are worst feature and are overdue for replacement with the type used on the Vale of Glamorgan line. This was supposed to have been done last year but there has been no sign that the work is imminent.

The same shelters are also installed at Pencoed and the various swanline stations to Swansea. Hopefully in a few years money will be found to replace them as as others have said they are very run down.

That said we could be waiting a while especially when we see how long it has taken to install information screens at various stations such as Pyle.

If I am correct the Maesteg line is due for re-signalling in a few years so hopefully the opportunity will be taken to sorting out the problem with sighting the signals especially as has previously been mentioned vegitation can be a nightmare north of Tondu.

As for Brackla station the westbound platform will be built alongside the loop so a train could be looped when it calls at the station to allow another train to overtake if required. Of course the loop in the eastbound direction is just before Pencoed station although perhaps one could be built at Brackla if required.
 

Requeststop

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Tondu Jcn looking Easterly (sorry Eastwards) in Feb 2013 I should know the difference between Easterly and Eastwards being a good Cornishman and knowing a lot about wind direction. Looking at my TrackMaps 5th Edition (Western) in my photo you are seeing the southern end of the Llynfi goods loop. Going away to the right, just beyond the curve in the trees was the Lovely Semaphores mantioned before, unfortunately, I was unable to get a snap as they disappeared from sight before I could get my camera ready. :(
 

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swcovas

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The problem with using the bay at Bridgend is that it is only long enough to hold a two car train and electrification will, I understand, bring three car trains as the standard minimum formation. As things stand, the bay would be difficult to lengthen although, I concede, that nothing is impossible given a will. It would, though, seem to be a waste of resources to lock a set into the branch when it could be picking up useful business elsewhere, at Pencoed; Llanharan and Pontyclun. It is also likely that an additional station at Brackla will be built, some time in the not too distant future, and it will need something better than an hourly service to attract new business. People from Brackla do not travel into Bridgend to catch a train to Cardiff so we are looking at a completely new catchment. There is also continuing pressure for a new station at St Fagans. Although electrification is not the panacea that some people think it might be, the superior acceleration would make the additional stops a better proposition than at present.

Since I started this thread, it has been mentioned that the work at Tondu might have more to do with a turnback for trains diverted via Margam. That would seem to make more sense.

I have already mentioned that some thought was given to running a half hourly service, on Saturdays, when the branch re-opened to passengers. John Davies was keen to try it but wiser councils prevailed. It was simply too risky and the knock on consequences of even the slightest of delays would have caused chaos to other services using the SWML. As it was, we had enough trouble with the Freight Sector which was dead against any service to Maesteg and did its best to strangle it at birth.

The outcome was that Saturday trains were strengthened from 143s to 150/2s. The platforms on the branch weren't long enough for anything else and some reliefs were run, in spare paths, from Cardiff to Tondu. The problem with that solution was that Maesteg passengers were left hanging about in the rain at Tondu with their increasingly fractious children; their bags from M&S and Debenhams and loudly voiced vows to never again travel by train. The general public just could not understand why the train that had dumped them there was just sitting idly for minutes on end instead of taking them home. A great deal of goodwill was lost in those early days.

Tondu Loop is in the wrong place and definitely not the answer to half hourly services and I dread the outcome if that path is chosen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The present layout at Tondu is a legacy of the shoestring budget that enabled the service to get up and running and is far from ideal. The present loop was contrived to hold coal trains, clear of the passenger service, which lasted for a few years during the time that stocks were cleared from the Washery at St John's Colliery.

It requires a slow approach to Tondu from the Maesteg direction first because of the very poorly sited Tondu Outer Home* and then to come to a dead stand, outside the station to surrender the token, before restarting to enter the platform a few yards away. All of this eats into time as well as a couple of the foot crossings which are short cuts to a housing estate. The crossings didn't really matter when the line was freight only and I don't suppose that much thought was given to the possibility that passenger trains would return to the branch when the houses were built.

Despite the problems, traffic on the branch continues to grow in, what has now become, part of the Cardiff 'Travel To Work Area'. The Valleys, in general, have become attractive places to live with their lower property values and more 'laid back' lifestyle than the city.

My understanding also was that a new loop was to be installed on the site of the Llynfi Power Station sidings which would be just about the ideal site for such a facility. Time will tell.

* I think that it is the Outer Home. Signalling aficionados will, no doubt, correct me if I'm mistaken. This signal is very difficult to sight because of lineside tree growth and is almost impossible to sight in full leaf season until the train is almost on top of it.

Just wish to say that your knowledge re the opening and development in the early days of the Maesteg line is very illuminating and interesting. Thanks!
 

MarkyT

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I last read the crossing point was to be near the lynfi power station north of Tondu with the current lynfi goods loop at Tondu being upgraded to be used as a reversing loop for IEP's if they are diverted via the Tondu - Margam line.

I assume you're suggesting a new passenger passing loop somewhere around Bridgend Paper Mills, about 2 miles north of Tondu, as I can't find a power station or remains thereof anywhere in that valley on Google Earth [edit - just found what may have been an old power station, evidence of old switchgear southeast of the paper mill!]. That would [still] put the loop only about 3 1/2 miles from Maesteg, and away from any existing station site. As others have said a few minutes could be saved by new signalling avoiding the token exchange procedures, but equally an additional passing loop situated between stations adds to journey time regardless of signal technology used, as at least one of the passing services has to stop unless the loop is built as a lengthy 'dynamic' facility, almost certainly not practical or economic in this case. Alternatively a new station with a conventional short passing loop could be built at the village of Pont Rhyd-y-cyff, a further mile or so north of the paper mill.

Either way, with the passing facility situated so close to Maesteg, I wonder (if the 1/2/ hourly service ever happens) perhaps the line could be re-extended a little further north along the valley to Nantyffyllon (about 1 mile) or Caerau (2 miles)
 
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Gwenllian2001

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I assume you're suggesting a new passenger passing loop somewhere around Bridgend Paper Mills, about 2 miles north of Tondu, as I can't find a power station or remains thereof anywhere in that valley on Google Earth [edit - just found what may have been an old power station, evidence of old switchgear southeast of the paper mill!]. That would [still] put the loop only about 3 1/2 miles from Maesteg, and away from any existing station site. As others have said a few minutes could be saved by new signalling avoiding the token exchange procedures, but equally an additional passing loop situated between stations adds to journey time regardless of signal technology used, as at least one of the passing services has to stop unless the loop is built as a lengthy 'dynamic' facility, almost certainly not practical or economic in this case. Alternatively a new station with a conventional short passing loop could be built at the village of Pont Rhyd-y-cyff, a further mile or so north of the paper mill.

Either way, with the passing facility situated so close to Maesteg, I wonder (if the 1/2/ hourly service ever happens) perhaps the line could be re-extended a little further north along the valley to Nantyffyllon (about 1 mile) or Caerau (2 miles)

Llynfi Power station stood immediately to the south of the Paper Mills but on the opposite side of the line and the remains of some brick buildings are visible from the train. The site of the sidings that served it are heavily overgrown but are easily identified by several posts that carried floodlights for the yard.

The big problem with building a new station at Pontrhydycyff, the site of the old Llangynwyd station, is the lack of access, since some land was sold off after the cessation of passenger trains in 1970.

As far as the position of a new loop is concerned, I wouldn't cite the mileage as the governing factor. Time is more relevant as speeds are much slower on the upper part of the line due to both curvature and the closeness of the three stations: Maesteg; Ewenny Road and Garth.

The half hourly service is a government commitment and I see no reason why a new loop could not be operated remotely when the line is resignalled.
 

MarkyT

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As far as the position of a new loop is concerned, I wouldn't cite the mileage as the governing factor. Time is more relevant as speeds are much slower on the upper part of the line due to both curvature and the closeness of the three stations: Maesteg; Ewenny Road and Garth. The half hourly service is a government commitment and I see no reason why a new loop could not be operated remotely when the line is resignalled.

OK thanks for that, I can understand the top end of the valley must be very slow, and even with electric stock it would be difficult to speed things up significantly.

I know there are a few 'remote' loops around the network and it is perfectly practical to plan a robust service around them, but they really are very few and far between and I don't think it's good for passenger perception of the service quality, regularly stopping 'in the middle of nowhere'. If a station loop can't be located at the old Llangynwyd site perhaps the loop could alternatively be co-located with a new 'parkway' themed station alongside the A4063 at the old power station, also serving paper mill employees and acting as a focus for redevelopment of the brownfield site itself.
 

Gwenllian2001

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OK thanks for that, I can understand the top end of the valley must be very slow, and even with electric stock it would be difficult to speed things up significantly.

I know there are a few 'remote' loops around the network and it is perfectly practical to plan a robust service around them, but they really are very few and far between and I don't think it's good for passenger perception of the service quality, regularly stopping 'in the middle of nowhere'. If a station loop can't be located at the old Llangynwyd site perhaps the loop could alternatively be co-located with a new 'parkway' themed station alongside the A4063 at the old power station, also serving paper mill employees and acting as a focus for redevelopment of the brownfield site itself.

An interesting idea but I don't think that a new station would be viable. It would be very awkward to provide road access and it would have limited appeal to workers at the paper mills. They work on a shift system and it would be difficult to cater for that without extra dedicated workings.

That 'Brownfield Site' might not remain much longer. See:

http://www.sustainabledirection.com/portfolio/morgan-credit-energy/

It is encouraging to see that they wish to use rail to bring in the fuel. If this scheme goes ahead, it would be the ideal time to build a new loop because new rail facilities are going to be needed anyway.
 

MarkyT

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It is encouraging to see that they wish to use rail to bring in the fuel. If this scheme goes ahead, it would be the ideal time to build a new loop because new rail facilities are going to be needed anyway.

Indeed, very interesting. I wonder where the wood fuel would come from and if there could be any synergistic potential for paper mill freight traffic. The report notes the plant will also require connecting to the main road via a new roundabout - that could be shared for station access!
 

swcovas

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It is encouraging to see that they wish to use rail to bring in the fuel. If this scheme goes ahead, it would be the ideal time to build a new loop because new rail facilities are going to be needed anyway.

Does this have any connection with the plans to import biomas to Milford with onward transportation by rail?
 

tiptoptaff

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It might be worth noting that a well known railfreight company, known for the transport of wood, has started route leaning on the SWML....
 

anthony263

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Well I am all for more freight services in South Wales and perhaps more use can be made of the Tondu - Margam line
 

Gwenllian2001

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Indeed, very interesting. I wonder where the wood fuel would come from and if there could be any synergistic potential for paper mill freight traffic. The report notes the plant will also require connecting to the main road via a new roundabout - that could be shared for station access!

The wood pellets are, reportedly, going to come from Latvia and/or North America.

If all this comes to pass, there isn't likely to any room left over to build a station after the sidings and loop are installed. Even if this were possible, I don't think that a station would be viable. It would need two platforms, if sited on the loop; disabled access and a footbridge to comply with current safety requirements. Apart from employees at the mill and power station, the only other potential passengers would be the elderly couple living at Brynllywarch Farm.

The paper mill was rail served. The connection was taken out shortly after the passenger service started but the internal rail network is still in place although disused.
 
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