Totley Tunnel issues

[Peterthegreat]

I've noticed that this train is due to go through Totley on about 20 minutes time. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R20010/2022-02-13/detailed

Where abouts will they be able to park this up bearing in mind the tunnel is still closed

The train is looped at Blackwell (between Alfreton and Clay Cross)

Same with the 2S80 Northern 17:45 from Piccadilly.

The "warning" has come off the Northern website.

 

[Killingworth]

Some trains from Manchester have run to Edale then reversed at Earles Sidings.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Northern are reporting the line has reopened.

 

[Tomnick]

I've noticed that this train is due to go through Totley on about 20 minutes time. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R20010/2022-02-13/detailed

Where abouts will they be able to park this up bearing in mind the tunnel is still closed

It's currently residing on the bi-directional slow line between Blackwell South and Morton (just north of Alfreton), which is often used as a convenient hidey-hole for situations like this as it doesn't see a lot of use otherwise.

 

[M60lad]

Quite ironic is that one of the operators providing Rail Replacement between Sheffield and Stockport was Hulleys of Baslow and according to one of the local enthusiasts who was quite passionate about X57 and used to ride the route allot when Hulleys ran it, the driver actually recreated part of the X57 route by running to Stockport via Snake Pass.

 

[ExRes]

It's currently residing on the bi-directional slow line between Blackwell South and Morton (just north of Alfreton), which is often used as a convenient hidey-hole for situations like this as it doesn't see a lot of use otherwise.

6Z26 now on the move through Chesterfield 130 late, hopefully its return run later on won't need a replacement bus that can carry 2600 tonnes ........

 

[edwin_m]

The EMR website says that the other operators are accepting their tickets between Derby and Crewe which implies this shouldn't be an issue.

I can only see between Stoke and Crewe on the website currently.

Something to do with the fact no other operator runs between Stoke and Derby?

 

[Killingworth]

Good news is that first train of the day has just arrived in Sheffield from Manchester.

 

[sonic2009]

Something to do with the fact no other operator runs between Stoke and Derby?

Yes that's true, what I was trying to say was EMR allowed passengers to use LNWR/XC during strike action, but don't seem to now.

 

[Starmill]

Something to do with the fact no other operator runs between Stoke and Derby?

In the original letter it was pointed out that customers could change trains at Tamworth. Sadly I cannot now find it. It was many months ago, so I suppose it was foolish of me to simply assume that the best available provision would remain in place for as long as the (very significant) disruption to the Sunday service.

Yes that's true, what I was trying to say was EMR allowed passengers to use LNWR/XC during strike action, but don't seem to now.

Yes, exactly. Even though the EMR service isn't restored at all.

Good news is that first train of the day has just arrived in Sheffield from Manchester.

That's one good thing, although customers at Manchester Piccadilly tonight were being advised that the 1919 TransPennine Express service was still cancelled, and that a rail replacement bus would be running to Dore & Totley and Sheffield. No mention was made of the 1945 train service which I see has been running broadly to schedule, but presumably that's because those with tickets for TransPennine Express only wouldn't have been permitted to use it.

Quite ironic is that one of the operators providing Rail Replacement between Sheffield and Stockport was Hulleys of Baslow and according to one of the local enthusiasts who was quite passionate about X57 and used to ride the route allot when Hulleys ran it, the driver actually recreated part of the X57 route by running to Stockport via Snake Pass.

I did think I'd seen one of their vehicles parked in the station approach at Manchester Piccadilly!

 

[Watershed]

No mention was made of the 1945 train service which I see has been running broadly to schedule, but presumably that's because those with tickets for TransPennine Express only wouldn't have been permitted to use it.

They would - there is general ticket acceptance in place between TPE & Northern for cancellations at the moment.

That said, passengers intending to travel on the 1919 may not be aware of that.

 

[Starmill]

They would - there is general ticket acceptance in place between TPE & Northern for cancellations at the moment.

That said, passengers intending to travel on the 1919 may not be aware of that.

Ah. Perhaps they just wanted everyone for Dore & Totley and Sheffield to get the bus so that there'd be enough space for people going to the other stations to get on the 1945 - who knows really.

 

[td97]

Indeed. The routes just seem to lack resilience.

Some trains from Manchester have run to Edale then reversed at Earles Sidings.

The Hope Valley route upgrade project will be renewing the crossover at Grindleford for use in situations exactly like this - in the future trains will be able to terminate at Grindleford in the event of blockage of Totley Tunnel (or late running).

 

[Tomnick]

The Hope Valley route upgrade project will be renewing the crossover at Grindleford for use in situations exactly like this - in the future trains will be able to terminate at Grindleford in the event of blockage of Totley Tunnel (or late running).

Is there anything preventing its use currently? Grindleford might be tricky as it's not signalled to passenger standards, but it would've allowed trains to terminate/start at Hathersage at least - pretty sure that's been done for a possession (Dore?) recently.

Today, presumably, the need to provide access to the tunnel for plant and materials would've precluded it regardless.

 

[Killingworth]

The Hope Valley route upgrade project will be renewing the crossover at Grindleford for use in situations exactly like this - in the future trains will be able to terminate at Grindleford in the event of blockage of Totley Tunnel (or late running).

Can't they do that now? Trains have run from Manchester to Dore and reversed within recent months.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Can't they do that now? Trains have run from Manchester to Dore and reversed within recent months.

How exactly can they do that without running through Totley tunnel?

 

[Killingworth]

How exactly can they do that without running through Totley tunnel?

Sorry, I phrased that badly. They should be able to reverse at Grindleford now. However if work is going on in the tunnel that may not be practical.

In different circumstances, like any issues down the Sheaf Valley, they can reverse at Dore - as they've done within the last 12 months.

Signalling makes some of these moves more difficult than they may look.

 

[Thomas6187]

Don't know if there's any scope for Northern to do a similar diversion, I imagine there are plenty of paths with TPE's strike. Northern route knowledge Manchester-Huddersfield may well have lapsed.

Northern still got to serve the local station along the route if they can/where possible

 

[ChrisC]

The Hope Valley route upgrade project will be renewing the crossover at Grindleford for use in situations exactly like this - in the future trains will be able to terminate at Grindleford in the event of blockage of Totley Tunnel (or late running).

Is the approach road to Grindleford Station from the main road better surfaced and lit than it was 30 years ago?

The reason I ask is because I still have very vivid memories of a return trip on a Saturday evening from Blackpool in the late 1980”s.
The line had closed between Hathersage and Grindleford for engineering works. The train from Liverpool to Nottingham, which we had boarded at Manchester, terminated at Hathersage and we were bused from there to Grindleford where another train was waiting to take passengers onwards to Sheffield and Nottingham.
The train made an unscheduled stop at Edale signal box as the guard was very concerned, having counted passenger numbers, that there would not be sufficient seats on the replacement bus. I think additional taxis were ordered. What I do remember was, in pouring rain, the double decker bus stopped at Grindleford on the main road, and we all had to find our way down a very dark rough potholed track to the station. I still remember there just being one rail worker with a torch and families struggling with children and pushchairs.

Things on the Hope Valley were perhaps no better in those days!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Northern still got to serve the local station along the route if they can/where possible

Those services transferred to TPE in 2018. Northern no longer operate West of Huddersfield other than the bit of the Sheffield line that runs parallel to the Manchester lines for a few hundred yards.

 

[Thomas6187]

Those services transferred to TPE in 2018.

Northern Hope Valley services, not local to Huddersfield

 

[Killingworth]

Is the approach road to Grindleford Station from the main road better surfaced and lit than it was 30 years ago?

The reason I ask is because I still have very vivid memories of a return trip on a Saturday evening from Blackpool in the late 1980”s.
The line had closed between Hathersage and Grindleford for engineering works. The train from Liverpool to Nottingham, which we had boarded at Manchester, terminated at Hathersage and we were bused from there to Grindleford where another train was waiting to take passengers onwards to Sheffield and Nottingham.
The train made an unscheduled stop at Edale signal box as the guard was very concerned, having counted passenger numbers, that there would not be sufficient seats on the replacement bus. I think additional taxis were ordered. What I do remember was, in pouring rain, the double decker bus stopped at Grindleford on the main road, and we all had to find our way down a very dark rough potholed track to the station. I still remember there just being one rail worker with a torch and families struggling with children and pushchairs.

Things on the Hope Valley were perhaps no better in those days!

The road down from the Maynard Arms to Grindleford station and the cafe is railway property and may have been relit in recent years, although I haven't been in the dark to see how it copes beneath the trees. There's a reasonable footpath. It's easy enough to drive into the road from Grindleford village and not too bad to drive out again in that direction. There's very little space to turn round for even a minibus so buses always stop at the road end. Turning left and up the hill out of that station road is a nightmare.

 

[High Dyke]

The Liverpool - Norwich route has also only been running between Sheffield and Grantham on Sundays for a very long time.

Yet, oddly enough, a few weeks ago with the ECML closed between Grantham and Peterborough for engineering work the service ran through from Nottingham to Peterborough (at least) diverted via Oakham and Stamford. So there's no real excuse not to run the service.

Now, back to topic. When do people suggest "urgent repairs" should be carried out? I'm sure a proper assessment of the brickwork was made, and it was deemed to be a risk to trains. Imagine the furore if Network Rail did nothing and a train derailed in the tunnel!

 

[Killingworth]

Now, back to topic. When do people suggest "urgent repairs" should be carried out? I'm sure a proper assessment of the brickwork was made, and it was deemed to be a risk to trains. Imagine the furore if Network Rail did nothing and a train derailed in the tunnel!

On 24th May 1971 there was a derailment in Totley Tunnel, see; htps://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/test/eventsummary.php?eventID=1355

It was very fortunate there were no fatalities or it would be better known. Just a broken rail and nothing coming the other way.

The potential for a collision between heavily laden trains has to be taken very seriously. That's one reason why there's a 6 minute block through the tunnel.

A big contract to point and repair brickwork and drainage in the tunnel was completed last year. Big in cost, but for the full length of the tunnel that cost woukd have been very much higher.

Credit where due yesterday. Northern tried to source and run buses. (Bustitution needs a separate thread.) By the evening they had 4 car trains operating.

 

[D365]

There's supposed to be a replacement bus service but there's clearly confusion about that. I dropped in at Dore and both the CIS and announcement just said cancelled. However, as I arrived an anonymous white minibus was parked in the drop off zone in the car park. Drove away before I got nearer, nobody aboard. Earlier in the day there were more specific details of bus timings from this link.

Find details of current incidents | National Rail

A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

What time were you at Dore? I was there around 10:30, with two passengers (one in each direction) completely unsure about where to go for the rail replacement.

 

[Killingworth]

What time were you at Dore? I was there around 10:30, with two passengers (one in each direction) completely unsure about where to go for the rail replacement.

11.35.

Usually the bus stop on Abbeydale Road immediately outside the station. The whole subject of bus replacements needs a separate thread. They aren't used very much because few know they exist, when they're due and where to wait. They take so much longer than a train too.

 

[td97]

Is there anything preventing its use currently?

Can't they do that now?

To my knowledge passenger traffic is currently not permitted to use the crossover as the existing signalling layout does not allow an in-service wrong-direction passenger move from Grindleford. A new signal is proposed at the Manchester end of P2 which will enable this.

 

[Tomnick]

To my knowledge passenger traffic is currently not permitted to use the crossover as the existing signalling layout does not allow a conflicting move from Grindleford. A new signal is proposed at the Manchester end of P2 which will enable this.

Not sure what you mean there - half of the purpose of the signalling system is to not allow conflicting moves!

There is a signalled move from the Up to the Down (and v.v.), but it's on the authority of a shunt signal and - crucially - the crossover points aren't provided with facing point locks. Nothing signalling-wise precludes a passenger train from terminating at Hathersage and then running forward empty to cross over at Grindleford though.

Yesterday, I'm pretty sure that Grindleford station and the crossover would all have been within the limits of the possession, which would preclude its use in any case.

 

[td97]

Not sure what you mean there - half of the purpose of the signalling system is to not allow conflicting moves!

Perhaps "wrong direction" would have been a better term.

One of the outcomes of the crossover renewal will be that passenger services with passengers on board will be able to traverse the crossover. No need to shunt, no need for passengers to be disembarked.

 

[Killingworth]

Perhaps "wrong direction" would have been a better term.

One of the outcomes of the crossover renewal will be that passenger services with passengers on board will be able to traverse the crossover. No need to shunt, no need for passengers to be disembarked.

Signalling changes will be some of the most expensive parts of the scheme now underway. Ability to cross directly from Cowburn Tunnel and Edale into Earles Sidings without a reversal might improve resilience and flexibility for freight services. However, maintenance of such a remote crossover, particularly in winter and adverse weather, would probably add undue risk as well as cost.