TPE Class 185s to be refreshed

[Tetchytyke]

Never found that a massive problem on 185s

The location of the luggage rack behind the exhaust stack is massively problematic. Not entirely uncommon to see suitcases grow legs and walk off the train. That’s about as bad as it gets on the 185.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The location of the luggage rack behind the exhaust stack is massively problematic. Not entirely uncommon to see suitcases grow legs and walk off the train. That’s about as bad as it gets on the 185.

I'm sure I recall there being a mirror like the kind you get on older buses upstairs on that stack so you can still watch it from your seat?

(If it's too big for the overhead, my bag is usually so heavy I wouldn't bet on a thief being able to pick it up, anyway )

The other flaw is the layout of the First Class being in a centre section rather than at the end, but it's a minor issue, and I believe some wheelchair users like it because it means the "ballroom" doesn't get crowded with standees in the way a multipurpose area like that usually would.

 

[RHolmes]

The first class section on the Manchester to Huddersfield is well utilised compared to the Leeds - Huddersfield stopper as most journey planners will send you on the stopping service due it’s faster journey time to connect to the Saltburn at Huddersfield with both trains leaving at 58’ past the hour. So if you’re travelling to York from Piccadilly on a flexible ticket, you’ll be told to change to Huddersfield rather than stay on the Saltburn. It’s well utilised for passengers travelling to Newcastle, Hull, Leeds and York.

The Leeds to Huddersfield stopper generally only finds custom with passengers connecting to LNER London services on the whole with advance singles, however these will all be replaced by long distance Manchester to Hull services

The Manchester-Huddersfield section is still being run like this, as part of the Hull-Piccadilly service.

This hasn’t been the case since Dec 22’.

The Manchester to Huddersfield all stations is covered by the stopper and peak time alternating Newcastle/Scarborough trains

From Dec 23’ the stopper continues as a separate entity with peak time trains covered by express services (Saltburn?) and the Manchester to Hull covering the Leeds to Huddersfield.

and more luggage space.

Never found that a massive problem on 185s. You do get people putting bags on seats but it's just because they're too lazy to put them up (Desiro overheads are huge) or on the racks that do exist throughout the train.

It’s a massive problem for the Airport services Bletchleyite. The 1544 from the Airport is one of the worst offenders for it as it is well timed to meet with quite a few long-haul services.

Now I already know your option of TPE serving the airport and I strongly disagree with it, but Luggage is a massive problem, I encountered a near 7 minute delay at Piccadilly platform 14 on a Saltburn train a few months back because I left the airport full and standing, and there was physically no space for large suitcases, creating extremely narrow passages to board/alight

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now I already know your option of TPE serving the airport and I strongly disagree with it, but Luggage is a massive problem, I encountered a near 7 minute delay at Piccadilly platform 14 on a Saltburn train a few months back because I left the airport full and standing, and there was physically no space for large suitcases, creating extremely narrow passages to board/alight

That's the problem there, in bold. Other than for short periods in the morning and evening peak around cities, TPE needs enough capacity not to be carrying standing loads. If you stick to a full seated load there's plenty of room between the stacks, overheads and between the seat backs for everyone to have at least an IATA carry on, and in practice a lot of daytrippers will have far, far less.

 

[RHolmes]

That's the problem there, in bold. Other than for short periods in the morning and evening peak around cities, TPE needs enough capacity not to be carrying standing loads. If you stick to a full seated load there's plenty of room between the stacks, overheads and between the seat backs for everyone to have at least an IATA carry on, and in practice a lot of daytrippers will have far, far less.

Carry on luggage is well accommodated across the entire fleet, but anything larger than this causes issues, particularly on the 185 and 802’s which have small luggage stacks, minimal gaps between seats, and poor bicycle accommodations competitive to how people use the services. Guards and Station teams (inc revenue) no longer have the ability to charge or restrict excess luggage.

It’s actually one of credits I’d give to CAF is their more ‘flexible’ use of space

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s actually one of credits I’d give to CAF is their more ‘flexible’ use of space

Interesting you think that, because the standbacks on 195s only allow two or three cases before they're full, whereas if there was a stack there (as Thameslink have in about half of those spaces on the 700s) you'd get 6 or more in.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it true that when Class 185 units were first receiving serious purchase consideration, a four-car version was hoped for, but was over-ruled by "those in certain quarters"?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

TPE should not be running stopping services with the fleet they have, which have always seemed to be more of the express train variety to me. Many people have always claimed the Class 185 are over-engined and they are not what you would associate with stopping services. Are there not other classes that could be used on the Huddersfield to Leeds stopper?

At the time the stoppers transferred, Northern's fastest diesel stock was Sprinters and the newly-arrived 170s which aren't exactly quick. Anything slower than a 185 would end up getting in the way of the following fast service (on the rare occasions that all the fasts were running).

I would rather have leather or fake leather like on GCs 180s!

Absolutely not! Was on an Arriva bus with fake leather seats that deposited me on the floor when the driver took a corner a little too fast. Horrible stuff!

It was moved to TPE for a reason.

The plan was to run them as 2tph semi-fast in addition to the expresses, either fast Leeds-Huddersfield then all stops to Manchester, or all stops Leeds-Huddersfield then fast to Manchester.

The Manchester-Huddersfield section is still being run like this, as part of the Hull-Piccadilly service.

With TRU, moving them back to Northern would just add an extra layer of complexity to everything.

It was advertised as "everything becoming a semi-fast"... the reality, on the Huddersfield to Leeds section at least, was one service that still called everywhere, with one solitary extra stop added to the Hull (at Batley). Only difference was the all-shacks did indeed extend through to Manchester... for a few weeks until it became obvious that the planned timetable was unworkable with the present infrastructure and with the stock available to TPE at the time.

Part of the temporary solution to that disaster was to hire a 170 from Northern, as TPE were a unit short once the Hudds-Leeds stopper stopped running through to Manchester. Some of those 170s had a declassified proper first class section at the time (only counting one, as the one at the front was used for TPE staff travelling pass who would get rather arsey if any of the great unwashed tried to enter) but not all did, and it was pot-luck which unit was allocated on a given day. TPE still sold first class tickets for the 185 diagram though!

Anyway my point stands that it should remain a local stopper for local people. We don't need or want first class unless it's a freebie. Now that Northern has units capable of keeping to time (the 195s) they should be running the service which should turn back at Huddersfield like the good old days. That way once the wires are up it's a simple changeover to a 331.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it true that when Class 185 units were first receiving serious purchase consideration, a four-car version was hoped for, but was over-ruled by "those in certain quarters"?

I believe the intention was to extend to 4-car yes, but funding wasn't forthcoming.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Interesting you think that, because the standbacks on 195s only allow two or three cases before they're full, whereas if there was a stack there (as Thameslink have in about half of those spaces on the 700s) you'd get 6 or more in.

I'm sure people grumble about tip-up seats in other areas, the bike spaces on 185s spring to mind. Cases should go under seats or in overhead racks. The standbacks are for passengers doing short hops (hence the tip-up seats) or for standees when busy. I'm surprised anyone wants to put cases there anyway when it's right next to the door and thus a theft risk.

 

[Tetchytyke]

From Dec 23’ the stopper continues as a separate entity with peak time trains covered by express services (Saltburn?) and the Manchester to Hull covering the Leeds to Huddersfield.

You’re quite right, I got it the wrong way around in my previous comment.

The 1544 from the Airport is one of the worst offenders for it as it is well timed to meet with quite a few long-haul services.

Going off RTT it appears that the 1544 is booked to be a single 185. It certainly is today and was both yesterday and the day before that.

No wonder it’s leaving people behind at Piccadilly.

Probably more for the scheduling thread, but this is where TPE is going to become an absolute car crash in December.

 

[Spartacus]

Is it true that when Class 185 units were first receiving serious purchase consideration, a four-car version was hoped for, but was over-ruled by "those in certain quarters"?

Extending some sets to 4 cars was given the go-ahead at one point (platform lengths precluding doing them all), but these were cancelled and replaced by an order for 172s, which of course was cancelled too. All the while 185s has been diverted onto WCML services, which left the fleet, and capacity, very short.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Ugh. Sticky and horrible. Indeed I can't think of a single good thing about the GC 180 refurb, it's just nasty, feels straight out of about 1975.

They are comfy thou!

Even buses seem to be going towards fake leather more!




I do think it would be a distinctive change and let's face it, our trains could do with it!

It does look good on trains and is much easier to keep clean, which surely must be more important post Covid!

 

[JD2168]

Fake Leather seats are ok but after a while they become very shiny & you end up sliding forwards in the seat or into the seat next to you. The ones I like are cloth seats but with fake leather for the headrest.

 

[takno]

They are comfy thou!

Even buses seem to be going towards fake leather more!


I do think it would be a distinctive change and let's face it, our trains could do with it!

It does look good on trains and is much easier to keep clean, which surely must be more important post Covid!

I'm not a fan at all. They are far too slippery, and you end up expending effort to stay on the seat. They're okay on buses, where you're typically on a short journey, and the importance of being easy to clean is higher. Overall on buses they are the natural successor to cheap vinyl. On trains they come across as a bit of a cheap bus-style experience.

 

[Ben Anslow]

Surely it is fairly ambitious? They could have just ordered some standard 7 car 802s with Sophia seats, but they've spent a huge amount of time and effort designing an entirely custom InterCity train for their needs in conjunction with Hitachi.

You sound like a friend of mine not from North Yorkshire south lakes border by any chance apologies for going off topic

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not a fan at all. They are far too slippery, and you end up expending effort to stay on the seat. They're okay on buses, where you're typically on a short journey, and the importance of being easy to clean is higher. Overall on buses they are the natural successor to cheap vinyl. On trains they come across as a bit of a cheap bus-style experience.

If anything they're worse on buses than trains- trains tend not to round corners so quickly or sharply, and are very rarely driven by drivers who think they're Damon Hill.

 

[Ben Anslow]

If anything they're worse on buses than trains- trains tend not to round corners so quickly or sharply, and are very rarely driven by drivers who think they're Damon Hill.

That’s true especially in the quarter past 4 stagecoach bus from Kendal on a weekday in college term time it is horrendous

 

[Bletchleyite]

You sound like a friend of mine not from North Yorkshire south lakes border by any chance apologies for going off topic

Nope, there's a clue in my name where I'm based

 

[JonathanH]

I do think it would be a distinctive change and let's face it, our trains could do with it!

It does look good on trains and is much easier to keep clean, which surely must be more important post Covid!

No, it would look awful. It is a matter of personal taste.

There is no evidence that they would actually be kept cleaner. I went on a bus with fake leather seats at the weekend and there was plenty of dirt on them. Once they are shiny and cracking they don't look good at all, and dirt gets in the creases.

Overall on buses they are the natural successor to cheap vinyl.

Indeed, I really do struggle to see how the fake leather being fitted to buses now is any better than the terrible NBC vinyl of the 1970s that the railway was spared.

Even where it is claimed that leather is being used, it is often a wafer thin covering of leather fibres over a synthetic base.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Nope, there's a clue in my name where I'm based

...and your stated location...

 

[noddingdonkey]

Will this refresh include replacing the at seat power sockets? The USB ports the two units I was on yesterday are so loose it's near impossible to get a connection.

 

[RHolmes]

Will this refresh include replacing the at seat power sockets? The USB ports the two units I was on yesterday are so loose it's near impossible to get a connection.

No plans to replace the sockets.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Wouldn't cost much to replace the faceplates on them I wouldn't have thought

 

[danbarjon]

Is there any updates on the refresh?