TPE Class 185s to be refreshed

[YorksLad12]

There's a small toilet at the end of the centre vehicle furthest from the composite coach. That's obviously no help to those who need the accessible facilities.
Having the universal toilet right at the end of the unit behind a cab is certainly unconventional, but there's always going to be a degree of compromise with a 3-car unit that has a reasonably sized first class area. There may have been better ways of designing it but the units are now nearly 20 years old, so any major changes are probably off the table.

Aye - the second (non-accessible) toilet is also within the carriage, which is no fun if you get one of the several seats opposite it. The accessible one has tip-up seats alongside it up to the crew door. All we're getting is a light (meaning "cheap") refresh. There have been plenty of speculative posts about what do do with the 185s, I'm desperately trying not to open up any cans of worms

 

[danbarjon]

I think electronic reservation would be a big benefit to the 185s as I know they still use paper, and with electronic you can reserve seats at short notice. I think passengers would definitely benefit from that especially on routes such as Airport - Saltburn. I know they aren't planning on fitting them but it's wishful thinking.

 

[takno]

I think electronic reservation would be a big benefit to the 185s as I know they still use paper, and with electronic you can reserve seats at short notice. I think passengers would definitely benefit from that especially on routes such as Airport - Saltburn. I know they aren't planning on fitting them but it's wishful thinking.

Short notice reservations which can suddenly pop up and deny you the sit you're sitting in. It's really what passengers are crying out for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Short notice reservations which can suddenly pop up and deny you the sit you're sitting in. It's really what passengers are crying out for.

Not necessarily that, but up to the time the inbound stock would arrive at the origin. With paper it's usually the day before to give time for printing.

 

[danbarjon]

Not necessarily that, but up to the time the inbound stock would arrive at the origin. With paper it's usually the day before to give time for printing.

These are the benefits that I think would be better. Not having to book seats the day before or if your train is cancelled not being able to book one before the next service as they've already printed all of the paper reservations out.

 

[Russel]

The November issue of modern railways (I’m subscribed, and for some reason I get sent each issue before it’s officially released) states that refurbishment plans are being drawn up, with aspirations of a coherent 180 fleet, and potential for 2+2 on the 360s. According to the MD, “It’s not an if, it’s a when.”

Did you mean 170 fleet or are they really getting the 180s back?

 

[AJDesiro]

Did you mean 170 fleet or are they really getting the 180s back?

Oops, I meant 170.

 

[Russel]

Oops, I meant 170.

I didn't think they would want them back!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the past, has there ever been any complaints raised about the first-class section in the Class 185 units?

 

[QSK19]

The November issue of modern railways (I’m subscribed, and for some reason I get sent each issue before it’s officially released) states that refurbishment plans are being drawn up, with aspirations of a coherent 170 fleet, and potential for 2+2 on the 360s. According to the MD, “It’s not an if, it’s a when.”

I read the article and wasn’t convinced by any of it - the answers from Mr Rogers seemed quite lame and commitments made in it seemed half-hearted. IMO, this stems partly from the fact that Abellio was the only bidder left in the running for the franchise - no real incentive to be ambitious and revealed what the DfT really thinks of the East Midlands.

So many promises have been made about EMR’s stock and we have been let down time and time again. I do believe they there have been many factors out of EMR’s control contributing to this; but, it’s just not good enough after 4 years.

Anyway, back on topic, TPE has been royally treated in terms of receiving brand new stock in recent years; and here we’re seeing the 185s being refreshed from what interiors which are already in very good condition compared to other TOCs’ stock. Whilst I’m pleased for those who use 185s that they’re going to be enjoying an even higher level of comfort and whilst I agree with the last part of post #36 regarding different TOCs having different plans, the refurbishment priorities are wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read the article and wasn’t convinced by any of it - the answers from Mr Rogers seemed quite lame and commitments made in it seemed half-hearted. IMO, this stems partly from the fact that Abellio was the only bidder left in the running for the franchise. No real incentive to be ambitious and revealed what the DfT really thinks of the East Midlands.

Surely it is fairly ambitious? They could have just ordered some standard 7 car 802s with Sophia seats, but they've spent a huge amount of time and effort designing an entirely custom InterCity train for their needs in conjunction with Hitachi.

 

[QSK19]

Surely it is fairly ambitious? They could have just ordered some 7 car 802s with Sophia seats, but they've spent a huge amount of time and effort designing an entirely custom InterCity train for their needs in conjunction with Hitachi.

As I’ve said before, I’m referring to the non-IC aspect of EMR. I agree that the IC side has been well-treated (remembering that the 222s were brand new).

 

[skyhigh]

Anyway, back on topic, TPE has been royally treated in terms of receiving brand new stock in recent years; and here we’re seeing the 185s being refreshed from what interiors which are already in very good condition compared to other TOCs’ stock. Whilst I’m pleased for those who use 185s that they’re going to be enjoying an even higher level of comfort and whilst I agree with the last part of post #36 regarding different TOCs having different plans, the refurbishment priorities are wrong.

What we don't know is where the funding is coming from here. 185s are owned by Eversholt, 360s by Angel. Stuff like toilet pipework cleaning may be funded by the ROSCO if it will increase reliability. The vinyls that are being replaced will have been guaranteed up to a certain point by the company who supplied them - if they're in poor condition earlier than expected due to substandard quality or poor maintenance by Siemens either the vinyl supplier or Siemens may be at least part funding the work. There will also be a business case with new seat covers - if the old ones are requiring a large expenditure to clean/replace due to staining it might work out cheaper to replace with better.

In short, it doesn't follow that the money being used for 185 refresh is coming from the same pot that 360 refurb would come from.

 

[YorksLad12]

In the past, has there ever been any complaints raised about the first-class section in the Class 185 units?

First class on a single 185 is hardly worth the effort; one-third of a carriage, minus the luggage rack and catering / trolley bay. The catering is average at best (especially if you're used to LNER!) and finishes around 6pm. And it isn't always 'policed' at night, so anyone can get on board and get a decent seat for no extra charge.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for the discussion of the TPE Class 185 refresh programme.

If anyone wants to discuss any other TOC's rolling stock then they are welcome to start a new thread.

 

[duffield]

First class on a single 185 is hardly worth the effort; one-third of a carriage, minus the luggage rack and catering / trolley bay. The catering is average at best (especially if you're used to LNER!) and finishes around 6pm. And it isn't always 'policed' at night, so anyone can get on board and get a decent seat for no extra charge.

It isn't always policed during the daytime either. And if I'd paid for a full-price 1st class ticket, not having experienced the 185 version before, I'd also be a bit annoyed by the near-constant through traffic (on busy services anyhow) between standard class and the toilet. Having said that, I find it quite pleasant, but as I don't have to pay my opinion isn't really relevant.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It isn't always policed during the daytime either. And if I'd paid for a full-price 1st class ticket, not having experienced the 185 version before, I'd also be a bit annoyed by the near-constant through traffic (on busy services anyhow) between standard class and the toilet. Having said that, I find it quite pleasant, but as I don't have to pay my opinion isn't really relevant.

It really ought to be declassified on the Hudds-Leeds stopper, at peak times standard is rammed and first is empty. First class fares are offered but nobody in their right mind would use them for a twenty minute journey.

 

[Spartacus]

It really ought to be declassified on the Hudds-Leeds stopper, at peak times standard is rammed and first is empty. First class fares are offered but nobody in their right mind would use them for a twenty minute journey.

I dunno, it's sometimes useful if you're a season ticket holder at weekends

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It really ought to be declassified on the Hudds-Leeds stopper, at peak times standard is rammed and first is empty. First class fares are offered but nobody in their right mind would use them for a twenty minute journey.

TPE should not be running stopping services with the fleet they have, which have always seemed to be more of the express train variety to me. Many people have always claimed the Class 185 are over-engined and they are not what you would associate with stopping services. Are there not other classes that could be used on the Huddersfield to Leeds stopper?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are there not other classes that could be used on the Huddersfield to Leeds stopper?

Not with TPE. They’ve got 185s or 802s.

 

[Killingworth]

TPE should not be running stopping services with the fleet they have, which have always seemed to be more of the express train variety to me. Many people have always claimed the Class 185 are over-engined and they are not what you would associate with stopping services. Are there not other classes that could be used on the Huddersfield to Leeds stopper?

Yes, stock operated by Northern who should be running that service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, stock operated by Northern who should be running that service.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Glad to hear we'll finally be getting proper moquette back, and not a moment too soon!

I would rather have leather or fake leather like on GCs 180s!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yes, stock operated by Northern who should be running that service.

It was moved to TPE for a reason.

The plan was to run them as 2tph semi-fast in addition to the expresses, either fast Leeds-Huddersfield then all stops to Manchester, or all stops Leeds-Huddersfield then fast to Manchester.

The Manchester-Huddersfield section is still being run like this, as part of the Hull-Piccadilly service.

With TRU, moving them back to Northern would just add an extra layer of complexity to everything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would rather have leather or fake leather like on GCs 180s!

Ugh. Sticky and horrible. Indeed I can't think of a single good thing about the GC 180 refurb, it's just nasty, feels straight out of about 1975.

Fake leather headrests are a good idea, though, that part of the seat tends to get dirty.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Fake leather headrests are a good idea, though, that part of the seat tends to get dirty.

It’s not dirt, it’s the oil from people’s hair that causes the moquette to discolour. Leather/e-leather headrests don’t have quite the same trouble.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s not dirt, it’s the oil from people’s hair that causes the moquette to discolour.

We're talking semantics here, but I consider that to be dirt. People whose hair is leaving imprints of grease everywhere need to consider having a shower. For your hair to get that oily, it takes several days if not over a week of not washing.

Leather/e-leather headrests don’t have quite the same trouble.

Indeed, that's why I think leather is good for that specific part of the seat.

 

[Tetchytyke]

People whose hair is leaving imprints of grease everywhere need to consider having a shower.

Off-topic, but it’s not just natural oil- hair gel and the like is worse for the damage.

The cloth covering the headrest is called an anti-macassar for this reason, Macassar Oil being a Victorian hair gel.

 

[RailWonderer]

It really ought to be declassified on the Hudds-Leeds stopper, at peak times standard is rammed and first is empty. First class fares are offered but nobody in their right mind would use them for a twenty minute journey.

Same for the Manchester - Huddersfield stopper. In the summer the two TPE peak services I used around Leeds through weren't as busy as pre-covid partly due to people abandoning TPE for their endless cancellations so ovwecrowding wasn't as bad.

Yes, stock operated by Northern who should be running that service.

TPE have more slack in their fleet than Northern does. 185s are a fine short to long distance regional train, the only work they aren't fit for are IC services that need better catering, 125mph, end doors and more luggage space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE have more slack in their fleet than Northern does. 185s are a fine short to long distance regional train, the only work they aren't fit for are IC services that need better catering

Not convinced they really do to be honest, with improved station offerings. Tea, coffee, soft drinks, alcohol and choccy bars are all most people buy on board.

125mph

Only needed on services that run on the ECML.

end doors

Doors at quarters make more sense for regional expresses, and other than the WCML service TPE operate solely regional expresses in terms of the usage pattern. Almost nobody is going from Liverpool to Newcastle, people make lots of overlapping shorter journeys primarily.

and more luggage space.

Never found that a massive problem on 185s. You do get people putting bags on seats but it's just because they're too lazy to put them up (Desiro overheads are huge) or on the racks that do exist throughout the train.

Other than being diesel under the wires, 185s are perfect for TPE. It's just a shame they were built so short and never extended due to Government faffing.