TPE Class 185s to be refreshed

[Killingworth]

Taken from their Stakeholder letter today and 34 page attachment; Our Plan for the Future – A Prospectus

Class 185 trains refresh: this will include replacement of external vinyl bodyside wraps, replacement of seat covers and carpets, and a comprehensive interior deep clean.

The Class 185 units will also undergo an acetic flush (Mar-24) to remove waste residue from the inside of pipes and tanks in the foul water part of the toilet system to increase reliability and effectiveness of flushing, reduce pipe bursts and increase effective tank capacity.

Replacing seat covers with more durable and easier to clean fabrics: all our trains have ‘flat cloth’ seat covers with the exception of First Class in Class 185/397. Our experience has been of severe vulnerability to unsightly staining which, once formed, requires dry
cleaning or machine washing to remove and where such washing limits the life of the cover. We are now implementing fleet-wide replacement with conventional heavy duty moquette seat covers (Sep-23 to Oct-24), noting that Northern have completed a similar replacement programme on their fleets.

 

[Spartacus]

Glad they've got plans for those seats, the fabric stains something terrible.

 

[387star]

They should never have used flat cloth in the first place. The industry often makes silly mistakes like this

 

[TheLunaPark]

Unpopular opinion, I've always preferred the previous TpE livery with the 'fibre optic' waves. Never been a fan of the current one. I know it's quite a popular one but not to my taste.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Unpopular opinion, I've always preferred the previous TpE livery with the 'fibre optic' waves. Never been a fan of the current one. I know it's quite a popular one but not to my taste.

Never a fan of the liveries based on FirstGroup's corporate pallette. In particular their insistence on putting their logo on every possible surface was extremely garish. The current look of the 185s removed all that self-congratulatory nonsense thankfully. The 175s, 180s and 360s suffered from the FirstGroup "purple pox" for far longer.

Glad to hear we'll finally be getting proper moquette back, and not a moment too soon!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Appreciate that it may not wear or wash well but for my money I'm much prefer flat cloth seats

The troublesome toilets on these and indeed all other Siemens units operating in the UK are quite frankly it is Grace and I wonder how much impact this work will have on them? I'm aware that there was some major replumbing done when the units were heavily refurbished at York

 

[Ben Anslow]

Unpopular opinion, I've always preferred the previous TpE livery with the 'fibre optic' waves. Never been a fan of the current one. I know it's quite a popular one but not to my taste.

I agree with the livery side definitely

 

[paddyb6]

Any ideas what this new livery will look like yet?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any ideas what this new livery will look like yet?

Nothing being said about a new livery so I expect exactly the same, bar the removal of the F in circle if it features.

 

[8A Rail]

Unpopular opinion, I've always preferred the previous TpE livery with the 'fibre optic' waves. Never been a fan of the current one. I know it's quite a popular one but not to my taste.

I think the present livery is awful too but that is partly down to using the grey / silver base colour which is never a good look on any train to be honest - also lack of imagination by the designers too. We can hope but don't have much faith it will change too much as it costs money to do so.

 

[johnnychips]

185s are excellent, comfortable trains and also seem generally not to break down very often. Their ability to depart and arrive reliably, hopefully in pairs, on the South TPE route means a lot more to me than their livery and the odd coffee stain on the seat.

 

[YorksLad12]

Unpopular opinion, I've always preferred the previous TpE livery with the 'fibre optic' waves. Never been a fan of the current one. I know it's quite a popular one but not to my taste.

Philistine! That said, I didn't like it when I first saw it - I even questioned the contrast on the doors. That was on the 185s though, it seems to suit the 397s and 802s better (which might have been what it was designed for).

 

[notadriver]

It could do with new engines as well - such as the ones in hitachi 80x.

 

[Ben Anslow]

185s are excellent, comfortable trains and also seem generally not to break down very often. Their ability to depart and arrive reliably, hopefully in pairs, on the South TPE route means a lot more to me than their livery and the odd coffee stain on the seat.

We really miss them on Furness line

Philistine! That said, I didn't like it when I first saw it - I even questioned the contrast on the doors. That was on the 185s though, it seems to suit the 397s and 802s better (which might have been what it was designed for).

That livery was definitely designed with that sort of mind set

 

[Nym]

It could do with new engines as well - such as the ones in hitachi 80x.

Like they're not already overpowered enough?

 

[Geeves]

I can't see the 185s being swapped to running on diesel electric but who knows with the various current Frankenstein trains we have running round. In my opinion they are the best trains TPE operate so glad to see they are getting looked after.

 

[Wolfie]

Appreciate that it may not wear or wash well but for my money I'm much prefer flat cloth seats

The troublesome toilets on these and indeed all other Siemens units operating in the UK are quite frankly it is Grace and I wonder how much impact this work will have on them? I'm aware that there was some major replumbing done when the units were heavily refurbished at York

The 350s have never seemed particularly problematic on the toilet front.

 

[AJDesiro]

The 350s have never seemed particularly problematic on the toilet front.

As a regular user of 350s, this is simply incorrect. The retention tanks are just too small. There’s always at least one loo per unit OOU, often two, or even three on a /4. The amount of times I’ve heard about extended dwells for a toilet stop at Rugby and Crewe is simply astounding.

 

[Wolfie]

As a regular user of 350s, this is simply incorrect. The retention tanks are just too small. There’s always at least one loo per unit OOU, often two, or even three on a /4. The amount of times I’ve heard about extended dwells for a toilet stop at Rugby and Crewe is simply astounding.

Now that, based on my own observations as a fellow regular user, is perhaps a reasonable comment. The question is whether it is the tank size or LNER/WMR's operating practices that are to blame. I haven't heard of SWR having similar issues for example. Does anyone know how the tank size compare to contemporary Bombardier equivalents?

 

[507 001]

It could do with new engines as well - such as the ones in hitachi 80x.

Why?!

 

[TheLunaPark]

Philistine!

Charming

 

[notadriver]

Like they're not already overpowered enough?

They are nominally rated at 750 bhp
in lner sets. Also they are quieter with less emissions than the older QSK19.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Any re-energing program would need to retain their ability to accelerate efficiently and slog up some challenging gradients at a decent pace with a big load of fat passengers and their suitcases, we don't need to create another monster like the 170 that performs worse than a 70 plus year old kettle on a heritage railway when you confront it with a hill

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Unlike the former flat cloth on Northern's units, of which to me the replacement with moquette was very welcome, I think the flat cloth on 185s is comparatively rather soft. I find them very comfortable, especially the soft leather head piece. I hope the moquette doesn't make the seats feel firmer, and I hope they don't ditch the smart leather headpiece either.

 

[TEW]

Now that, based on my own observations as a fellow regular user, is perhaps a reasonable comment. The question is whether it is the tank size or LNER/WMR's operating practices that are to blame. I haven't heard of SWR having similar issues for example. Does anyone know how the tank size compare to contemporary Bombardier equivalents?

The toilets on SWR Desiros are also pretty unreliable.

 

[Tracked]

185s are excellent, comfortable trains and also seem generally not to break down very often. Their ability to depart and arrive reliably, hopefully in pairs, on the South TPE route means a lot more to me than their livery and the odd coffee stain on the seat.

Agreed, but glad you didn't mention their ability to arrive/depart on time

Nice unit, good ride, glad the seat covers are being changed as part of this, although the ability to see some of the more questionable stains might be a useful thing

 

[Plasmanoodle]

It’s a shame the wheelchair area couldn’t be rethought, although I appreciate this is just a refresh. During my one experience, I felt so segregated from the rest of the train and its passengers.

 

[YorksLad12]

It’s a shame the wheelchair area couldn’t be rethought, although I appreciate this is just a refresh. During my one experience, I felt so segregated from the rest of the train and its passengers.

It's an odd space. On the plus side it's less likley to be overrun with luggage and you're close to the accessible toilet. The downside, as you say, is that you can sometimes be the only person there, segregated even from First Class. And there's no First Class wheelchair space. Moving the partition so that the wheelchair space is in First won't work, as the vestibule doors are quite narrow from memory so there would be problems navigating around them, and you'd lose most of the Standard space in the vestibule end - I've availed myself of that oftentimes.

Unless, somehow, you could move and replace/design the partition, put the luggage rack across from a new wheelchair space, slide the double/table seats down into the former luggage space to create more wheelchair turning space... but that's more than a simple refresh, and there might be good (structural) reasons why the luggage rack is where it is (I think Standard passengers use it).

 

[Plasmanoodle]

It's an odd space. On the plus side it's less likley to be overrun with luggage and you're close to the accessible toilet. The downside, as you say, is that you can sometimes be the only person there, segregated even from First Class. And there's no First Class wheelchair space. Moving the partition so that the wheelchair space is in First won't work, as the vestibule doors are quite narrow from memory so there would be problems navigating around them, and you'd lose most of the Standard space in the vestibule end - I've availed myself of that oftentimes.

Unless, somehow, you could move and replace/design the partition, put the luggage rack across from a new wheelchair space, slide the double/table seats down into the former luggage space to create more wheelchair turning space... but that's more than a simple refresh, and there might be good (structural) reasons why the luggage rack is where it is (I think Standard passengers use it).

I’m not sure if there are other toilets on the unit, as I’m not overly familiar with the 185s. If there aren’t, then it’s convenient for first class to be near the accessible toilet.
If there are other toilets, then perhaps it would have been better to have the wheelchair area and first class at opposite ends of the train.
Maybe someone with more familiarity than me could comment with more knowledge.
As you say, though, this is just a refresh!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I’m not sure if there are other toilets on the unit, as I’m not overly familiar with the 185s. If there aren’t, then it’s convenient for first class to be near the accessible toilet.
If there are other toilets, then perhaps it would have been better to have the wheelchair area and first class at opposite ends of the train.
Maybe someone with more familiarity than me could comment with more knowledge.
As you say, though, this is just a refresh!

There's a small toilet at the end of the centre vehicle furthest from the composite coach. That's obviously no help to those who need the accessible facilities.
Having the universal toilet right at the end of the unit behind a cab is certainly unconventional, but there's always going to be a degree of compromise with a 3-car unit that has a reasonably sized first class area. There may have been better ways of designing it but the units are now nearly 20 years old, so any major changes are probably off the table.