TPE class 802 diesel running on Sundays

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mikeg

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Does anyone have any idea as to why TPE class 802s run on diesel on the ECML on Sundays? I don't think I've once been on one using the wires from Northallerton to York or back on a Sunday but during the week it's usually on electric. I know the OHL is rather limited on the ECML but if anything would have thought with fewer trains running on Sunday use of electric would be more not less likely...
 
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HST43257

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Does anyone have any idea as to why TPE class 802s run on diesel on the ECML on Sundays? I don't think I've once been on one using the wires from Northallerton to York or back on a Sunday but during the week it's usually on electric. I know the OHL is rather limited on the ECML but if anything would have thought with fewer trains running on Sunday use of electric would be more not less likely...
More LNERs on Sundays may be a factor
 

hexagon789

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Surprised they have so much of an impact, since it’s just a few a day in each direction.
It was fine when LNER still ran HSTs but now they run only electric or bi-modes the OLE can't cope with those plus TPE, so TPE end up running on diesel.

The power upgrades are being seen to in the next few years but for the meantime you have the situation with TPE being restricted in when and where they can run on 25kV.
 

HST43257

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It was fine when LNER still ran HSTs but now they run only electric or bi-modes the OLE can't cope with those plus TPE, so TPE end up running on diesel.

The power upgrades are being seen to in the next few years but for the meantime you have the situation with TPE being restricted in when and where they can run on 25kV.
But surely only a couple of 802s need to use diesel, say, in the hours where LNER extras run.
 

hexagon789

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But surely only a couple of 802s need to use diesel, say, in the hours where LNER extras run.
I'm not sure of the exact technical issues nor the exact reasoning for the restrictions as they are. I've picked up some information from the TPE 802 thread where the power supply restrictions have been discussed a few times but it's never gone into exact technical detail that I've seen - just what I outlined above really.
 

_toommm_

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This has probably been answered before, but why does LNER run more services on a Sunday than in the week?
 

hexagon789

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This has probably been answered before, but why does LNER run more services on a Sunday than in the week?
Quite simply because it needed it, it was always pretty busy then. See also this previous thread which explains it a bit more:

 

Watershed

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The restrictions are being applied out of an abundance of caution and are not necessary given the current timetable (even then, they were only ever intended to apply to a few services, rather than all trains). They are causing a number of problems and are in the process of being addressed.

Even at the glacial speed of power supply upgrades, I think that the upgrades will be completed before the timetable increases sufficiently to once again render it a problem.
 

_toommm_

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Quite simply because it needed it, it was always pretty busy then. See also this previous thread which explains it a bit more:

Sunday afternoon (and Friday evening) are the busiest time of the week on the InterCity network by some considerable margin.

Sunday pm southbound from Edinburgh is the busiest time of the week for LNER.
Interesting, thanks folks! I just presumed evenings, especially Friday evenings, would be the busiest.
 

hexagon789

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The restrictions are being applied out of an abundance of caution and are not necessary given the current timetable (even then, they were only ever intended to apply to a few services, rather than all trains). They are causing a number of problems and are in the process of being addressed.

Even at the glacial speed of power supply upgrades, I think that the upgrades will be completed before the timetable increases sufficiently to once again render it a problem.
Hopefully that proves to be the case, if not it's a few years until the upgrades are due to be completed so it could be a few more years of the sane silly situation.

Interesting, thanks folks! I just presumed evenings, especially Friday evenings, would be the busiest.
Iirc the full Sunday intensive workings don't date right back to the beginning of "Eureka" but a few years after - possibly 2013 I seem to recall they ramped up the Sunday services to Edinburgh.
 

37424

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Its ridiculous really talk about cut price electrification, and would look even more so if it wasn't for covid and TPE reducing the service north of Newcastle, it needs sorting out.

Just as well the XC franchise never got around to being re-let and a bidder opting to buy Bi-modes :lol:
 
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Bald Rick

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Its ridiculous really talk about cut price electrification, and would look even more so if it wasn't for covid and TPE reducing the service north of Newcastle, it needs sorting out ASAP.

It is being sorted. Unfortunately getting a big connection to the electricity supply is measured in years, as is the lead time for buying big transformers. Amazon don’t have a rack full of the latter in a warehouse in Doncaster, unfortunately.
 

Watershed

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Its ridiculous really talk about cut price electrification, and would look even more so if it wasn't for covid and TPE reducing the service north of Newcastle, it needs sorting out.

Just as well the XC franchise never got around to being re-let and a bidder opting to buy Bi-modes :lol:
It is unlikely that approval for the ECML to be electrified would have been given (at least at that point in time) if it hadn't been done as cheap and cheerfully.

It's easy to say things with the benefit of hindsight - and there is no way BR could have predicted 125mph bi-mode services from Liverpool, for example!
 

GLC

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Does Network Rail give some sort of rebate to TPE, to account for the extra diesel TPE must use? Or is the amount small enough not to concern TPE?
 

37424

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It is being sorted. Unfortunately getting a big connection to the electricity supply is measured in years, as is the lead time for buying big transformers. Amazon don’t have a rack full of the latter in a warehouse in Doncaster, unfortunately.
I do have an electrical engineering degree so I am aware that large transformers don't just turn up from the Amazon warehouse. However its not like the Bi-modes just turned up one day is it?

I gather there are potentially also issues with Midland Bi-modes south of Bedford because the overheads are not up to 125mph running and if and when money will be forth coming to upgrade that.

However there is not much point in pushing for electrification if these issues with the existing network are not sorted pronto.
 

Bald Rick

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Sorry @37424, slightly pointy comment, not intended to be for you specifically.

The issue is, the people specifying the train services make assumptions about the state of the infrastructure without checking first. There’s a long, long list of similar issues over the last 20 years, starting with the power upgrades on the D.C. Network South of the Thames when all the Electrostar and desiros turned up.
 

37424

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Sorry @37424, slightly pointy comment, not intended to be for you specifically.

The issue is, the people specifying the train services make assumptions about the state of the infrastructure without checking first. There’s a long, long list of similar issues over the last 20 years, starting with the power upgrades on the D.C. Network South of the Thames when all the Electrostar and desiros turned up.
That's OK, but yes specifying trains and then realising you don't have the infrastructure to handle it isn't a good look.
 

swt_passenger

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That's OK, but yes specifying trains and then realising you don't have the infrastructure to handle it isn't a good look.
It’s definitely the normal way NR do it. Their electrification motto seems to be “not quite enough, not too early”. It derives from “just enough - just in time”. They are constantly in catch up mode on the DC network as well...
 

hexagon789

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That's OK, but yes specifying trains and then realising you don't have the infrastructure to handle it isn't a good look.
More the original infrastructure isn't up to today's requirements as I see it. At least there is a reasonable workaround which doesn't require service cuts that can suffice until the necessary upgrades have been carried out.
 

Ianno87

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That's OK, but yes specifying trains and then realising you don't have the infrastructure to handle it isn't a good look.

In this case, the infrastructure *can* handle it - it just involves some trains running on diesel mode until it's sorted.
 

37424

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In this case, the infrastructure *can* handle it - it just involves some trains running on diesel mode until it's sorted.
I think that's splitting hairs you can look at it that way but it's meant to be an electric train where possible and in that respect the infrastructure isn't up to it, and with LNER bi-mode order alone to replace HST's they were clearly going to be much more significant demands on the power supplies in the east coast route.
 

hexagon789

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I think that's splitting hairs you can look at it that way but it's meant to be an electric train where possible and in that respect the infrastructure isn't up to it, and with LNER bi-mode order alone to replace HST's they were clearly going to be much more significant demands on the power supplies in the east coast route.
Simply the infrastructure was designed for a time when only two electric trains each way per hour was envisaged, but as I see it the main positive is that the enhanced frequency of service can still be operated just that the extra services cannot be sustained on electric power.

It's unfortunate but it's being seen to within the next few years and surely it's better that the extra services can run albeit on diesel than not at all?
 

D365

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I think that's splitting hairs you can look at it that way but it's meant to be an electric train where possible and in that respect the infrastructure isn't up to it, and with LNER bi-mode order alone to replace HST's they were clearly going to be much more significant demands on the power supplies in the east coast route.
Power supply upgrades were always planned, the difficult part was/is getting the money through...
 

gimmea50anyday

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Nothing to do with network rail. These issues were caused back in 1988 when BR strung the knitting up to a price point. At the time the electrical capacity required was a lot less than is now being demanded. At the time of electrification there was only one Electra in each direction per hour plus potentially one freight/parcels loco as all other EC and XC services were loco hauled or HST. Now you have up to 2 LNER 80x plus one TPE 80x and a ScotRail 380 or 385 potentially in that same electrical section at the same time all making power demands. The main issue with Marshall Meadows is the lack of National Grid infrastructure in the area that can boost the electrical supply with so is not exactly a small job. Hutton Bonville also has a lower output however there are other NG feeds that can reroute and boost the power much easier. So until these works are complete LNER are only supposed to be running max 9 car units to Edinburgh and TPE are diesel operated between Morpeth and Edinburgh station stops (we do not change power on the move) in addition TPE are diesel mode between Durham and York on Sundays on account of LNER running more Anglo Scottish services on a sunday.
 
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