TPE Dispatch Farce at York

[Ben Bow]

What a shambles. Typical of TPE though....

 

[cf111]

I'm not too familiar with York. What makes these platforms supposedly high-risk?

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not too familiar with York. What makes these platforms supposedly high-risk?

They're curved, some of them quite significantly

 

[DunfordBridge]

All of the above platforms are through platforms, not bay platforms, but I wonder why platform 10, has been omitted, also a through platform.

This procedure seems to be in stark contrast to DOO trains on Govia but maybe Transpennine are thinking ahead for when the 5 car units come into operation.

 

[robbeech]

I too wondered why 10 (for reference the other side of the island to 11) wasn’t included if 11 is.

It does seem like a debacle. But I guess it was deemed safe again as it was done in the interest of safety.

 

[ComUtoR]

Sounds like an interesting way to meet RAIB recommendations.

 

[GW43125]

Left hand, meet right hand. Now communicate.

 

[sheff1]

So self dispatch was deemed inappropriate following a risk assessment but then, after no "Train Monitors" showed up on the first morning, it suddenly became OK again. You couldn't make it up.

 

[Randomer]

Possibly the direction of the curve for sight lines on 10 vs 11 depending on which way they normally depart?

I strongly suspect a good idea fairy came up with this and didn't think it through very well if the on call director cancelled it pretty much straight away.

 

[robbeech]

So self dispatch was deemed inappropriate following a risk assessment but then, after no "Train Monitors" showed up on the first morning, it suddenly became OK again. You couldn't make it up.

You’re not suggesting that the financial penalty for cancelling every service at York and running them ECS* one stop down the line has any bearing on the decision are you. It is clear that overnight it has become safer to do this.


*clearly dispatching a train ECS with a platform full of angry passengers is well within the new guidelines but dispatching a full train with an empty platform is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Ih8earlies]

To add even more to the confusion, guards at York and Scarborough received an email this morning telling them to ignore the new method of work (which we were only told about last night or this morning depending on shifts) until further notice - and haven't heard anything since.

However. Guards at Piccadilly have received FURTHER emails telling them to ignore the REVERSION and stick ti the method of work with despatch monitors as per safety bulletin 037. (Seen at the start of this thread)

So. Nobody seems to know what the hell is going at the moment.

 

[tsr]

1. Why can't the existing station staff monitor for risks? Why have different dispatch or platform staff for different TOCs? This is not a good idea and seems to be something which happens at certain stations for no known reason.
2. The platforms may be curved, but the current formations are not especially long. It beggars belief that such a short train as a 3 coach 185 could need up to three people monitoring its departure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it means 3 on each platform, it means 3 in total, so there can be one for each dispatch.

I do think there is some merit in this; with most DMUs there is no scope for the guard to watch the train out of the platform. But surely with Class 185s having cab droplights the guard can do this?

 

[MDB1images]

1. Why can't the existing station staff monitor for risks? Why have different dispatch or platform staff for different TOCs? This is not a good idea and seems to be something which happens at certain stations for no known reason.
2. The platforms may be curved, but the current formations are not especially long. It beggars belief that such a short train as a 3 coach 185 could need up to three people monitoring its departure.

I suppose the existing station staff look after LNER and will continue to prioritise and focus on them.

If it pans out as stated (ie: no changes to TPE current staff responsibilities)then taking additional staff on rather than making them redundant will be a positive.

 

[ainsworth74]

1. Why can't the existing station staff monitor for risks? Why have different dispatch or platform staff for different TOCs? This is not a good idea and seems to be something which happens at certain stations for no known reason.

There are approximately eight TPE services per hour from York. It seems to me unlikely that existing LNER staff would have capacity to do their current work and deal with an extra eight trains per hour!

2. The platforms may be curved, but the current formations are not especially long. It beggars belief that such a short train as a 3 coach 185 could need up to three people monitoring its departure.

Firstly I don't think the idea is that there would be that many people monitoring each departure. But more importantly it reads to me as there is an eye on the future here and that they're thinking about the new five car trains which may very well need dispatching. Indeed my reading is that they're dispatch trained so they can dispatch the new trains not just watch them!

 

[whhistle]

I suppose the existing station staff look after LNER and will continue to prioritise and focus on them.

No station staff should prioritise any company over another, no matter who they work for.
Some stations have dispatch staff but if they're too busy (during disruption), the train will self-dispatch anyway.

Strange that a policy comes out, seemingly rushed, and Network Rail doesn't know about it.
I would have thought they would be the people to inform before the company staff to ensure they (NR) are accepting of the policy?

Indeed my reading is that they're dispatch trained so they can dispatch the new trains not just watch them!

And slightly less cryptically, they need to be trained so they can monitor / know what to watch out for :P
But perhaps you are heading down the right road. Wouldn't dispatch responsibility be LNER staff at the station though?

 

[185]

I too wondered why 10 (for reference the other side of the island to 11) wasn’t included

I'm guessing -
Convex platform - obscured by train bodyside
Concave platform - you can see it all from the back

Other platforms chosen probably have either high volume footfall or physical obstacles such as pillars or stupidly placed Selecta vending machines (which they did on 9 some years ago under GNER) totally blocking the dispatch corridor, the signal AND the off indicator.

That said, I have had an err... 'negative' view* of the Safety Standards Department at TPE decade now.

*I'm impressed, see, I didn't swear there.

 

[philthetube]

I don't think it means 3 on each platform, it means 3 in total, so there can be one for each dispatch.

I do think there is some merit in this; with most DMUs there is no scope for the guard to watch the train out of the platform. But surely with Class 185s having cab droplights the guard can do this?

But as they have no way to stop the train what is the point or benefit.

 

[Carlisle]

But as they have no way to stop the train what is the point or benefit.

Hand / Verbal signal to the guard ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But as they have no way to stop the train what is the point or benefit.

Hand / Verbal signal to the guard ?

It very clearly states that the guard is to be in the rear cab and to watch for the "two hands raised" emergency stop signal.

 

[FQTV]

It very clearly states that the guard is to be in the rear cab and to watch for the "two hands raised" emergency stop signal.

Wecome to The Digital Railway......

 

[ainsworth74]

Wouldn't dispatch responsibility be LNER staff at the station though?

As far as I'm aware dispatch of one TOCs services by another has to be paid for so LNER would do it, if you paid them for it! TPE have presumably decided that it's more cost effective to get their own staff in. I can see why to be honest. With eight trains per hour to deal with it probably makes sense to just have your own presence at the station to deal with dispatch but also customer service. It must be one of their busiest stations in terms of both number of services per hour and also passengers travelling. Also worth recalling the rampant drunk issue as well at York on Saturdays and the implications that has for safe dispatch...

I'm guessing -
Convex platform - obscured by train bodyside
Concave platform - you can see it all from the back

Other platforms chosen probably have either high volume footfall or physical obstacles such as pillars or stupidly placed Selecta vending machines (which they did on 9 some years ago under GNER) totally blocking the dispatch corridor, the signal AND the off indicator.

Whilst I'm not railway staff having spent a long time festering at York over the years and visualising the various platforms listed I'd agree with what you say there. 11 is convex so you can't really see the whole train (certainly if it's over three car) whilst ten is concave and fairly clear of obstructions (depending on stopping position). Whilst all the other platforms have things like pillars, foot bridges, departure screens, vending machines and lots of people to block your sight lines if you're trying to dispatch anything longer than around three cars!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read it again and noticed that these people will become "full" dispatchers when the new stock arrives. Why not now?

 

[LowLevel]

1. Why can't the existing station staff monitor for risks? Why have different dispatch or platform staff for different TOCs? This is not a good idea and seems to be something which happens at certain stations for no known reason.
2. The platforms may be curved, but the current formations are not especially long. It beggars belief that such a short train as a 3 coach 185 could need up to three people monitoring its departure.

TPE generally with the odd exception (Lime Street and Oxford Road use Northern staff, Virgin Trains stations use their staff, not sure who does Glasgow and Edinburgh) self dispatch and where they dispatch their own trains use agency dispatch staff on much less favourable terms than normal. When a friend was doing it at Piccadilly 12 hour turns running around everywhere were the order of the day.

They don't like paying other companies to do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE generally with the odd exception (Lime Street and Oxford Road use Northern staff, Virgin Trains stations use their staff, not sure who does Glasgow and Edinburgh) self dispatch and where they dispatch their own trains use agency dispatch staff on much less favourable terms than normal. When a friend was doing it at Piccadilly 12 hour turns running around everywhere were the order of the day.

They don't like paying other companies to do it.

FirstGroup being cheap and nasty? Never...

 

[221129]

No station staff should prioritise any company over another, no matter who they work for.
Some stations have dispatch staff but if they're too busy (during disruption), the train will self-dispatch anyway.

This isn't always true. At my new place, I'll be only dispatching my own companies trains. Also there are a lot of places where you cannot under any circumstances self dispatch.

 

[CC 72100]

No station staff should prioritise any company over another, no matter who they work for.
Some stations have dispatch staff but if they're too busy (during disruption), the train will self-dispatch anyway.

You clearly don't understand the industry here.

Perfectly possible to have station staff who only deal with their TOC (or other TOCs who have a contract them) trains.

Self-dispatch depends on whether that is authorised in the Sectional Appendix and even what type of train it may be - this may be on a platform by platform basis.

Self-dispatching from a platform where you MUST be dispatched from would be a big no-no.

 

[pt_mad]

TPE generally with the odd exception (Lime Street and Oxford Road use Northern staff, Virgin Trains stations use their staff, not sure who does Glasgow and Edinburgh) self dispatch and where they dispatch their own trains use agency dispatch staff on much less favourable terms than normal. When a friend was doing it at Piccadilly 12 hour turns running around everywhere were the order of the day.

They don't like paying other companies to do it.

Really, agency staff dispatching? How do they keep on top of competence management using temp staff? Sounds a bit bizarre in a safety critical role. What if they put them through the full training, passed them out and they left without notice as agency staff sometimes do when they find a permanent job?

 

[221129]

Really, agency staff dispatching? How do they keep on top of competence management using temp staff? Sounds a bit bizarre in a safety critical role. What if they put them through the full training, passed them out and they left without notice as agency staff sometimes do when they find a permanent job?

Yes it's quite common in the South East area.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Sounds similar to the GTR policy which they are rolling out across the network, they do it at several stations now particularly in regards to the 700 stock and there is locations where its done with 377 stock which used to have dispatch staff to assist the conductor before it all went DOO. The platform staff no longer physically dispatch the trains, but are supposed to be present on the platform and blow the whistle, and hury passengers onto trains using the PA system. It does seem bizarre though to have that number of staff and not have them physically dispatch the trains.